Bombay or Burmese?

This is our cat louie. He is 2 y.o and is 12 lbs, he has a responsive personality. He is always trying to get into something and acts like a dog he needs to know whats going on. He has to be the first to check what ever comes into the house for the first time. He's like that sweet and sour candy one minute he wants to be a little devil and the next he wants to be on your lap.

Hi and welcome to The Cat Site! Your kitty looks to be just a regular gorgeous black Domestic Short Hair Feel free to post more pics of your Louie in the Fur Pictures ad Videos thread - we love seeing kitty pics, and I have a particular soft spot for black cats

Looks like a cute black moggie to me too.

Burms and Bombays have a different head shape. Burmese don't come in black, and Bombays have stunning gold eyes.
http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profiles/burmese.html
http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profiles/bombay.html

Neither - just a normal black domestic shorthair. If anything, he could have a little Europeon style of Burm in him but probably not.

American Burmese and Bombays are quite different looking then your cat. Bombays basically are black Burmese in type.

Welcome,
You are fortunate...
black kitties make wonderful companions.
My black beauty, Isis, came into our lives last April.
Like your handsome Louie, she is a joy to have in our family.
I would call them both, black, domestic, short hair kitties.
Please make yourself at home.

Hola y bienvenido a TCS, ...Catulina

Milky

y Horacio

te saludan!!!........

(Translate: Hi and Welcome to TCS, Catulina ,Milky & Horatio say hello to you!!!... )

Please feel as you home here, we can learn so much and deep about out kittys in this marvelous site, I just only please ask you read the rules and other stuffs that can help you to feel as you Real home!.. here you have the link my friend.
http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82565

Please ask whatever you need to know, there are plenty of good members and of course our tireness Mod´s to help us here!....

See you on the forums!, Glad you join us!

First of all let me say that I am not a breed snob by any means, and couldn't care less if my kitties have any "royal" blood or not. I love them unconditionally, each in her own unique way. I also understand that unless a cat has pedigree papers, they are technically either a DSH or DLH.

Having said that, last night I was watching Cats 101 on Animal Planet, and my ears perked way up when they were describing the British Bombay breed. Absolutely every trait they described fit my little Squeak exactly!

- She is very dense and surprisingly heavy for her size.
- She is sleek and very shiny, and my husband has often said she looks just like a little panther.
- She is the most curious cat I've ever had and has to be in the middle of whatever you are doing - on the bathroom counter while brushing my teeth, licking the water in the sink, for example.
- She is a talker and will respond every time she is talked to, and her voice is high pitched, hence her name, lol! If I say, "Where's my Squeaky" she will come running and squeaking!
- She is very muscular and can jump a good 4 feet off the ground straight up without first crouching.
- She loves her toys, and loves to play fetch, and "catfishing" with my husband. He has a furry toy mouse attached to a fishing rod which she loves!
- When she isn't fetching, she will play "hockey" with her toy mice, scooting them up and down our tiled hall.
- She loves to play with a friend's dog. She doesn't hiss or growl and she chases him around the house!
- She torments my other cat Dusty with her "in your face" cattitude toward her. Dusty responds with hissing and growling, but Squeak just wants to play (I think).
- She is a lap cat, and has to be sleeping on or next to one of us at night (heat seeking), and she also emits a great deal of heat too.

http://mybombaycat.com/bombay-cat-ch...d-personality/

Odds are if a black cat ever crossed your path, it was a Bombay.

Bombay cats have very round heads and a stout muzzle. Their eyes are wide and rounded. The eyes of British Bombay cats are typically gold or green in color, while the eyes of American Bombayâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s have a very distinct orange hue to them. Their ears are similar to most cats; medium-sized and rounded at the top.

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http://www.ehow.com/how_2051486_how-...ombay-cat.html

As far as Squeak's background and littermates go, I know nothing. I acquired her when I was talking with a lady in PetSmart one day. This lady already had 10 cats, but was given this then kitten by someone else, and I agreed to take her. Now I'm really curious about her background!

Originally Posted by Dusty's Mom

First of all let me say that I am not a breed snob by any means, and couldn't care less if my kitties have any "royal" blood or not.

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Hey! I take a little offense at that. First off, all cats are royal. Ask them yourselves!! Most are also divine

Nearly all breeders started out as pet owners with cats of no particular breed. A deep love of the feline species is what unites us all, and it is a particular love for their particular breed that leads breeders to spend countless hours and dollars working to promote and preserve the breed that continues to make their heart skip a beat. We work hard to produce happy and healthy cats and kittens that embody the living standard of our breed. Part of promoting and preserving a breed is ensuring that our cats and kittens and their offspring live happy and fulfilling lives. So we spay and neuter our pets before they go to any new home.

The Bombay is a very, very rare breed. It is one of the rarest in the entire cat fancy, yet it is misidentified more than any other breed (perhaps other than the Siamese. . .) I know of two Bombay breeders in my area (300 mile radius) and one is a CFA judge. Suffice to say, these breeders take extraordinary care to ensure that their cats only reproduce within reputable breeding programs. It is terribly unlikely that your cat is a Bombay (addressed to both posters) but that does not in any way make your cat less royal and divine. ALL cats are special!

Hi Ferris!

I understand that breeders are very protective of their blood line, but we all have seen Persian cats and other distinctive recognizable breeds in shelters to know that even with or without papers, many breeds (by breed characteristics) end up in the general population of unregistered and mixed heritage in shelters or even on the streets.

I'm not in any way suggesting that I got a purebreed British Bombay, but only that my sleek black kitty shares the same identical personality traits and appearance as the registered purebred BB. I would be willing to bet that if a pure BB was DNA typed and gene mapped, she would share many of the same markers as my kitty.

But since I am not a breeder and not at all interested in being a breeder, I consider myself very fortunate to have acquired a carbon copy for free!

Originally Posted by mews2much

I had a cat that was Bombay/Burmese.
There are not many breeders like Renee said.
Cleo/Polar Bare's breeder breeds Bombays.
If you want to see what they look like you can look at his website.
You do not see many Bombays at shows.
Here is the TICA breed standards.
http://tica.org/public/breeds/bo/intro.php
The breed came from a Black American Shorthair and a Sable Burmese.

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I've looked at several sites. There are American Bombays which have copper or orange eyes and there are British Bombays, with gold or green eyes. They are two different breeds, from everything I've read. My Squeak displays all the looks and characteristics of the British Bombay. Her eyes are more gold/greenish and she has the long, sleek, muscular body of the breed.

Neither - he's a black domestic shorthair. But I can see why you might think Burm or Bombay. He's a little like them but not enough to say he's either breed.

Hello Folks,

I have read many threads on a variety of sites, and am sensing a trend on the disavowing of possible Bombay backgrounds and understandably through the rarity and the near likelihood that ANY cat not picked up with papers from a breeder is not pure-bred.  At the same time, I have seen many cases where the only reason someone is told their cat isn't is that it is rare... which is kind of non-sensical, although logical maybe statistically.

I would be surprised if my Pan doesn't have a significantly high British Bombay factor going on, but as we rescued him from under a dock, we will suffice to say to anyone that asks what type of cat he is, that is resembles a British Bombay if anything.  I love hearing others who think they have one describe theirs since the traits (at least some of them) are so specific its amusing.

Fetching is fun.  The social aspect is huge.  The sleek, muscular, "panther" look is phenomenal (and partly to account for his name of course..although it was the god of mischief that earned him it in the end).  Being lanky and in no way overfed or fat and already being over 15 lbs by his first birthday is fun, except when he forgets he weighs that much and lands on us

I guess at the end of the day, to me, when someone asks what type of cat you have, they are more curious about what your cat looks like or behaves than they are on his lineage.  Other than his eyes, the link above that leads to an actual Bombay looks like Pan except his eyes are green rather than textbook amber.  Maybe he has a lot of a Bombay in him.  Maybe not.  But he is mine and that is all that matters. Well, unless he is reading this, then I'm his... of course.  No need to give him another reason to remind me

Rob

 Hi Rob,  You have an absolutely stunning cat.    and I can see why you'd be curious about his ancestry.    

I can also see why you would see some resemblance to GCCF  Bombays ( black self Asians)    , though I think he looks like he has a longer head than is typical ,  both in terms of how the vertical measurement appears from the front, and  looks like he may have a somewhat more pronounced muzzle than  they usually have (though that can be difficult to tell from a front view).   Plus there's  the eye color.  I have never seen or heard of one with green eyes.    I'm not saying it is impossible but I do think that  makes it more unlikely. 

and he is certainly bigger than they usually are.   Males are usually 8 to 11 pounds .   The American ones are  similar size or a bit smaller.    ( In any case, he definitely doesn't look to me like  American Bombays  which I have seen and handled  in person. ) 

 Where are you located?   That would at least make a difference in the likelihoood of him having any ancestry from Bombays from the UK type .   If you are in the UK , then the possibility of some "British Bombay" ancestry  would at least be less remote than if you're in , for example,  the USA,  in which case it really is close to impossible.    There would be very few of such cats in the U.S.   

 There are some "European Burmese"  in North America   and there are some Burmillas.  but I have not seen nor heard of  Bombays of that type being over here.   I have  people in America who say they think they have a "British Bombay"  but never known of any with actual documentation. 

But since the UK ones are less extreme,  a random-bred black cat is more likely to look more like them than an American type Bombay.  so people often seem to think their cat is a "British Bombay".  

The trend of disavowing possible pedigreed Bombay ancestry IS  certainly influenced by the sheer rarity of them compared to the vast numbers of random-bred black cats.  That may sound nonsensical,   but    I think it at least needs to be taken into account when talking about probability. 

 I have seen some people online who absolutely  deny that any cat could possibly be a breed or partly some breed if it was acquired in any way but from a breeder,  with papers from a legit registry,  and seem to believe that  after a breed has been developed, there is a complete separation between the gene pools of pedigreed cats and moggies,  so that the genes can never never never never flow back into the moggy population.  

 I don't take it that far.    and if I think a cat strongly resembles a particular breed  I will absolutely say so.  but with the caveat that it is often impossible to know for sure.    After all, the breeds CAME from the random-bred cats -- who themselves come in a great variety.   

   And since it IS usually pretty impossible to say  absolutely that a cat does or does not have some ancestry of a certain pedigreed breed,  especially from just seeing a photo,   it's understandable that statistics play a role in  answering questions about whether a cat might be some breed or a mix of some breed. 

   The pedigreed cats are  a tiny percent of cats in general.    Even a Persian is rather rare when compared to the numbers of  popular dog breeds.     and a Bombay is way, way more rare than a Persian.    In fact a Bombay is far less common than hairless Sphynx cat.     

 Plus when you consider that these days most pedigreed cats are altered as kittens  and never reproduce,  the chance for mixes is less than it was several decades ago. 

 But the thing to remember is the Bombay is partly from black cats of Western ancestry.  American Shorthair is basically the pedigreed version of the regular "domestic shorthair"  cats of the U.S. 

 So there  are all these black random-bred cats who do share a distant connection with Bombays in that way.

   Hard to say if he might also share a connection via Asian cats.

 I’d love to see some more pictures. 

Thanks for the informative response.  As a brand new pet owner, of any type, I had no background understanding anything about breeds or not.  My first clue that cats were for the most part non-breed specific was that Petco had about 30 separate dog breed brochures and cats had one generic cat brochure

I hope I was clear in all my rambling previously that I don't think he is Bombay.  I think he may have some Bombay in his background somewhere since the traits and characteristics seem to run strong matching what is listed for that breed.  And being all black would most likely imply, from what I'm reading, that a good portion of his background would have to be domestic American shorthair although I suppose there are other "breeds" that produce completely black "nose to toes".

I am glad you mentioned the length of the muzzle, since the pictures I looked at didn't seem all that different from his, but at the same time I didn't feel any of the pictures were showing the short, blunt muzzle that I would have expected based on the text descriptions of it.  Funny thing was when he was weeks old and we commented on his quick growth and the "panther" look to him, I looked for panther kitten photos to see a size comparison at his age and the panther kittens have the very square blunt muzzle, so if that is how the Bombay looks then I don't think its that close a resemblance.  Ironically, panthers also happen to be spotted and more grey than black as kittens, go figure.  My Pan looked more like a panther than panther kittens, at least for a short bit

I'll get some more pictures when he deems to allow me better angles but for now I have a few odds and ends since you asked.  The muzzle is only the slightest bit less than a normal cat to my eye, so that could be the second defining trait that doesn't match Bombays at all, the first being his eyes.  Although the reason I had been specifying British over American was that I had read that British have been known to have the green eyes.  His eyes range from green outward to a gold for the most part.  As you said, very distinctive eyes or so we have heard from others at times.

And of course he seems to be a bit heavier than those breeds would imply.  Sounds like he is towards the 'monster' end of the size spectrum which is all the more reason to make sure we don't EVER overfeed him.  Lanky and heavy is good.  Round and heavy, not so good .

oh my gosh he is just gorgeous.   Well I already saw that in the first photo,  but  now I see it even more.   And you take such wonderful photos of him.  

 I would love to know what his ancestry really is.    Is that coat really black from the tips to the roots ?  because that's rather unusual  without selective breeding.

You're right that green eyes are allowed in Bombays in GCCF --  the eye color description is the same for most the colors of Asians   but I've just never seen a photo of a Bombay  with green eyes on a breeder's site.  ( I haven't seen the British ones in person at all.   it might be they just dont show  green eyed ones, don't keep them for breeding since gold is preferred.   but I have a feeling it may be unusual to get one with green eyes.   Maybe I am basing that more on the U.S. ones.  Burmese and Bombays are very tightly bred -- which is not really a good thing.   but it means there is a lot of conformity / predictability.  

Of course if crossed with something totally different,  who knows? 

I don't think his muzzle even appears less than average for a Western random-bred cat. 

  Body kind of  reminds me  of a black Savannah I have seen at a show.  but I think the melanistic Savannahs do have more of a faint spotted pattern.  

I'm going to tell you something I think is fun,  that I hope won't be just confusing.   because I'm not saying he IS the thing I'm going to tell you about,  which would be just bizarre  

The funny thing is, this reminds me of a recent  thread in the Ethical Breeding and Showing category,  where someone posted a video of cats at a Thai Cat Centre,   including a black cat they call a "Konja".  which is a name given to one of the kinds of "lucky cats" described in centuries-old Thai manuscripts called Tamra Maew ( Treatises on Cats) .  

 Your cat looks quite a bit like that black cat from Thailand in the video.   that cat is a stud with jowls. 

,  and the funny part is that the conservator of the cats  seems to think the Konja is a Bombay !    He's not really right because the Bombay was a cross of 2 breeds,  one of them Western,  not just a native black cat from Thailand.    He also thinks ( or at least the translation says) that the Konja was recognized in India ---  obviously he's thinking that because of the name Bombay.   But that was just  a U.S. breeder's idea of an exotic sounding name.   No actual  connection with India. 

 So I  hope i am not  just causing a lot of confusion by mentioning this!  I am not saying your cat is from Thailand.  unless that's where you are  or   unless he IS a "Konja" who  jumped off a boat from Thailand and that's how he got under the dock !    lol [font=arial, sans-serif]  [/font]

But it's just kind of fun that your cat is sort of a "Konja" lookalike. 

http://www.bangkokpost.com/media/content/2013/05/30/4A9C7FDA59CF4766912BB1EB4F185DAE.jpg 

But  he might have some other Asian ancestry  like Siamese  / Oriental combined with something heavier.    ( actually Bombays have  a lot of Siamese in them  because there weren't many Suphalak / Thong Daeng cats ( the original names in Thailand of for what we call the Burmese )  in the U.S. so they bred to seal point Siamese. ) 

 He does sound like he has a personality  similar to the cats of that region.  who are extremely social  and love to play fetch. 

and i would say his body type is like the heaviest end of the range of "foreign type"  like the original Siamese.  ( the males usually range from 9 to 13 pounds. but a few are maybe up to 15-16.  but that is unusual.) 

Good point about keeping him at a healthy slender condition.    big lanky and muscular is  great.  but big and fat is not healthy.   There is a vet's site with excellent info on feline nutrition  http://www.catinfo.org     and you might also want to check out the nutrition section on this forum. http://www.thecatsite.com/f/64/cat-nutrition

I just want to say this cat is absolutely adorable. I want to hold him and love him some. I do have such a soft spot for these black fur babies. Beautiful:

Thanks blueyedgirl5946!

@maewkaew... as to the color being black throughout the hair.. I think so?  On him, I can't see I notice any fading or alternative shading to the hairs.

I have been accused of "over-sharing" pictures of him at times (GUILTY!) but on here I imagine that isn't likely to be an issue.  Thanks for all the feedback folks!

Stunning, just absolutely stunning !