2 Attacks on Christmas - secular & right-wing christianity

It sounds to me as though they are simply trying to tap into a potential goldmine. Like everything else, they're all about the money.

We just use it as family gathering time. We don't even do presents anymore, only for the younger children. I'm cross trained on nearly everything at work, so I'll work for the overtime in place of people that want time off for the holiday.

Sadly, the are a couple of industries that would never even get out of the red were it not for the commercial christmas. "Black Friday" even acknowledges that. The toy industry would totally collapse, and all that would be left would be imports, and Chia pets would simply disappear forever, and we just can't have that.

For sure we can't have the Advent Conspiracy churches bringing any more clean drinking water to third world countries. That has GOT to stop.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2009121...08599194759000

A couple of important points.

1. It isn't "All about money." There are good, honest, upright and caring people who are religious, and active in their religions. To impugn all religious activity like that is not only wrong, it's malicious.

2. The toy industry (including my employer) would probably do just as well without Christmas, and possibly better, since so many people wait until Christmas now, instead of buying through the year. The seasonal rush is a big expense for us, and it always raises costs seriously, what with temp workers, seasonal workers, increases in the fleet with leased trucks and trailers, increased accidents and damages, and a huge increase in returns.

For what it's worth, the church I was raised in actively discouraged the celebration of Christmas in a materialistic way and opposed public displays, Christmas trees, Santa Claus, etc, seeing them as vestiges of pagan celebrations and having nothing to do with anything "Christian."

To me that is what Christmas is supposed to be about - remembering those who would today be turned away from the inn and in need and helping them out. Not trying to guilt boyfriends into spending outrageous sums of money on jewelry for their girlfriends or parents into spending money on the latest electronic doo-dad for their kids.

Clean drinking water in exchange for killing all their gays. Sounds like a reasonable trade to me.

It is "ministries" in Uganda promoting capital offense laws for homosexuality. And now it appears, Rwanda as well. People in need, eh?

Have you ever asked where that money is going? I'm willing to bet that the greatest segment of their donors have no idea they were funding such a thing.

If they can prove me wrong, I'm quite willing to concede. But I do completely agree with the fact that there are many, many, many good Christian individuals. It's the organizations grubbing for that money that worry me.

ABC (the network channel, not just the letters in order ) has shown Merry Christmas, Charlie Brown! at least 3 times this holiday season. We've watched it twice, only because we missed it the other time.

The entire premise of it is Charlie Brown asking what the true meaning of Christmas is, and bemoaning how commercial everything has gotten, from the aluminum trees to his own dog's entry into the neighborhood decoration contest. Linus stands up and recites a portion of Luke 2, the Shepherds in the Field part. Frankly I was a bit surprised that ABC was showing it so much considering the very strong Christian message of the show. And I was also a little surprised at how the message hasn't changed one bit from when it was created in 1964 (I think I read that right?) - how commercial Christmas was and how it was losing its meaning.

Funny...the fight has been going on for decades about the true meaning of Christmas. The fight between religion, commericalism, and family keeps going and going and going.

The biggest difference is now you aren't even supposed to say "Christmas" and even Wal Mart doesn't play Holiday/Christmas Music while every aisle is decked out to attract the holiday/Christmas shoppers. (That seems a bit hypocritical to me!) And now kids aren't allowed to have Christmas pagents and all that anymore because someone may be offended. Strange, I remember that we had a practicing Jewish girl in our class in elementary school, and we learned a Hanakkah song and she just sat out the Christian songs and sang with us on the secular ones. No one sued or flipped out on the school or the music teacher. We just made concessions for everyone.

The church I grew up in operates ADRA, a charity that has a higher rating and a much lower overhead than the Red Cross. I could give you a long list of the great projects operated by that church worldwide, but I suspect it would convince you of nothing. But suffice it to say you've heard of some of them, and you may not have even realized it was a church-operated charity.

A lot has changed, just in the last couple decades. The creation of a Department of Education pulled all the schools that didn't opt out and become private under the Federal umbrella, and that took a lot of their leeway out of the picture. When AOL went to fixed pricing for unlimited access, it created a means by which millions of solitaries from numerous faiths and beliefs started finding each other, and wanted to be acknowledged. Most of them just want a share. The only groups I've heard that actually want an end to Christmas are the atheists (and not even all of them), and they want an end to religious holidays in general. Everybody's.

The point that makes all the difference is, when these groups sue...they sue. When there is a "finding of fact" hearing in June, they'll be there. When there is a status hearing in February, they'll be there. If there is a motion to dismiss on labor day, they'll be there. Whereas the pro-holiday types start thinking about it about 10 days before the holiday, and forget it right after.

I was thinking more along the lines of itemized accounting and current debt instead of a list.

Do you have some proof of that? Of course you don't, just more Christian bashing, as usual. ***Yawn***

I know, I know, your next post will be, "There hasn't been any Christian bashing".

Claims of "Christian Bashing" is, and always has been, a mere dodging of the facts, attempts to derail an "uncomfortable" debate, or inability to respond. It does exist, but it usually contains language never seen here.

The proof is quite evident. All you need do is go back to the articles of what is happening in Uganda. The missionaries are building schools, digging wells, feeding the hungry, and heavily promoting legislation to have all the gay population rounded up and executed. Sort of like a quid-pro-quo affair. The punishment is even supposed to extend to anyone that knows of a gay person and doesn't report them. That means, this very law can be used to arrest any christians that disagree with the law, so they can use it to purge the "undesirable" element from within their own organizations. I would imagine that nothing would squelch dissent within the church like a Ugandan prison...or the hangman.

The Catholic stance in DC over gay marriage is a muted version of the same thing, although abandoning the homeless in the middle of winter may make it just as deadly.

Do you have any proof that is ISN'T happening? Of course you don't, just more hollow accusations of chrisitian bashing to avoid that little verity.

And, as you will no doubt say "Not all Christians...", you're quite right. It's just their money.

It is actually so easy to resolve the issue. All we have to do is allow everyone their symbol. I don't understand why the "war on christmas" whiners feel that sharing the winter with anyone else is so horrid.


See! There's nothing to it.

To get on the list, you have to show that accounting. Any more niggling little details bothering you?

But just so you know, here are the numbers:

Charity Navigator rating of ADRA

You'll notice it has a very high rating. Higher, in fact, than Doctors Without Borders, a charity I suspect you approve of.

I'm a little prejudiced on this one. My wife's college roommate's husband was ADRA's representative the UN for a while and spent a lot of time directing relief in Bosnia and Croatia during and after the wars there.

Show it to whom? I've not seen it.

And now you have.

No I haven't. That's not itemized. Ask any of the hard-core political posters on these forums. If they don't disclose fully, they're hiding something.

Sorry, but you're just wrong on this. A lot of charities (Salvation Army, for example) don't disclose, but some do, and ADRA is one of them.

As I said, you're going to suit yourself on this, but keep in mind that there are others who are just as educated, just as informed, just as concerned, and who still disagree with you. That doesn't make them wrong or right, but it also doesn't make you wrong or right (except in this case!).

I'm curious...what charities would you consider worthy of your money?

How interesting. ADRA in Uganda is aiding them with "Good Governance". I wonder just what that could entail, seeing as they don't seem willing to tell anyone.

http://www.adrauganda.org/

Whatever it is, it isn't politics. The Adventist Church stays out of politics by church policy. Getting involved in politics is a sure way to be kept from doing anything else as soon as the political winds change. I would guess that it's encouraging efficient use of funds for health and welfare projects.

However, if you read the link on the page you linked to, I think you'll find all the answers:

http://www.adrauganda.org/adra_about.html

Or you could read the complete report from 2007.

http://www.adrauganda.org/Reports/an...port_2007.html

But if you really want to know, why don't you write them and ask them? I suspect they'd be glad to tell you.

So...who do you donate to?

I gave up on the salvation army years ago, during a United Way day-of-caring. I was helping around the shelter and was there at dinner time. They herded everyone into the chapel, then locked the doors. The only one's they fed were the one's they preached too. I've not been back.

What is this "Good Governance" they give guidance on? Dealing with un-desirable elements, perhaps?

I actually have ribbons displayed for some of mine. They're right up there.

An organization name, please?

<<What is this "Good Governance" they give guidance on? Dealing with un-desirable elements, perhaps? >>

Definitely not, as you'll learn if you read those links.

All you need do is point out the one that defines "Governance".

United Way (with specific instructs to leave out the SA and Boy Scouts) is the only organization. The rest I do with direct donation or volunteer time. I don't care much for holidays, so serving meals and being social is right up my alley. Which I'm quite happy about now, because at least I know my money wasn't going to Uganda for "Good Governance".

FTR, I'll be at Theresa's in Bowling Green, KY on Christmas, either serving or helping with dishes. Come on by.

I'd say the following covers it, personally.


* Communities should be assisted through participatory development, which is gender inclusive and provides equal opportunity to individuals of different ethnics, religious and cultural backgrounds.

* All persons have equal rights to health, education, self-realization and fulfillment of socio-economic potential.

* The complete utilization of women’s capabilities is a vital component of the development process.

* Every child should have a future filled with opportunity, and freedom to choose his/her future.

* Information and participatory training free individuals to fulfill their potential.

* Families and communities are the building blocks of personal character and society.

* Its constituencies are defined through its primary relationship including the church, the donors, the communities and other development partners.

* Each society must care for and faithfully manage the natural resources of the world.

* All resources, opportunities and advantages are gifts, which must be responsibly managed and shared.

* Integrity at every level is an appropriate expectation due to all partners in the development process.


What puzzle many people (and what may be giving you trouble) is that this is an organization with a long history of altruistic charity work but operated by a church that is itself pretty conservative in social behavior (no drinking, smoking, dancing, jewelry, movies, etc., and a strict observance of the Sabbath) but a very liberal attitude toward most of the "trigger points" of many of the fundamentalist churches. They have filed amicus briefs in favor of the separation of church and state, including the ending of prayer in public schools. The oppose abortion only when used for such purposes as gender selection. They accept gay and lesbian members (although they discourage any public display that would cause problems for children).

(Just as an aside, my last two years of high school were at a school operated by the church. One of my male classmates worked summers as a Mary Kay salesmen, going door to door in a dress. I suspect most of his customers never knew he was male. He was also the son of the local pastor.)

And just for the record, I would never give money to the United Way. Like you, I think it supports some charities I could never get behind. And I think that since money is fungible, no matter what restrictions I put on my donations, my money would still be going to support some charities I would prefer didn't have it.

The United Way's rating is just a little above ADRA, by the way.