Just a question to start a discussion, if I may.

Firstly, I would prefer this to not get personal. You may state your opinion, bring in any proof you may have, but do not attack me or anyone else on here. Please, lets me civil.

So, I was having a discussion today with a friend of mine who has a declawed cat. I have been trying to rid my cat Tom of his scratching issue and the vet actually told me that declawing could be an option (we've done scans of his brain and anatomy and everything at this point to see if anything is wrong, he really does just like to scratch and bite) if his being neutered (which is happening this week) does not change his behaviour.

I, personally, was never a fan of declawing. Unless it is absolutely needed, I didn't suggest it but my friend has a declawed cat so I thought I'd ask her about any behaviour issues afterwards. She said her cat was in pain for awhile, but no longer than she seemed to be after she got spayed.

Well I told her I viewed it as an inhumane procedure which caused pain to the animal and only benefited the owner and not the cat. And then she shocked me. She asked me how spaying and neutering really helped a cat.

So that got me thinking, do we ever really NEED to spay or neuter a cat? It doesn't really help the cat at all (we could say that it gets rid of cancer risk in those areas but I mean, we could say the same about claws getting stuck and harming, so they do have a small benefit when looked at medically in both areas). We get it done because we do not want the cat spraying or going into heat. We don't want to make sure our cats don't get mated, etc. So in reality, how is a neuter or spay any less inhumane and selfish than declawing? Neither of them benefit the cat either way, so how is one a horrid thing that a person should be tarred and feathered, while the other is also a surgery that SHOULD be done?

Again, feel free to say you agree, disagree, see the point but still don't agree, but do not attack me or anyone else on here. I just thought it was a good point on my friend's behalf and she kind of made me rethink yelling at people over declawing when my cutting my cats man-ness off is not really any better.

Anyways, feel free to agree, disagree, or be half-and-half.

I think the risk of cancer is a very good reason to neuter a cat...

Why to neuter:
http://www.catchat.org/neuter.html

Why not to declaw:
http://www.declawing.com/
http://www.declawing.com/htmls/declawing.htm


This says it all for me.

I don't like declawing but sometimes it's necessary for medical reasons. My cat had a torn toenail and the vet said if the nail grows in deformed(thicker, crocked...) and it bothers the cat she would have to remove that one claw.

Spaying is beneficial to both the cat and your wallet. I saw a video on youtube of a cat with pyometra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyometra They took xrays and didn't know what was wrong with the cat until they did surgery on her. They found her uterus engorged with puss. The cat would have died if she didn't have surgery. The uterus would eventually rupture inside of her spilling the toxic puss. The emergency surgery must have costed more than the regular spay. What would happen if you couldn't afford surgery?

If you want to watch the video on youtube it's called "Stump Pyo- the end is the best part!" You also can watch a cat get declawed too.

Originally Posted by Luci_Sushi

I don't like declawing but sometimes it's necessary for medical reasons. My cat had a torn toenail and the vet said if the nail grows in deformed(thicker, crocked...) and it bothers the cat she would have to remove that one claw.

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That's the only reason for declawing imo. (Hope your kitty is ok!)

Originally Posted by Zuma-xo

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So in reality, how is a neuter or spay any less inhumane and selfish than declawing? Neither of them benefit the cat either way, so how is one a horrid thing that a person should be tarred and feathered, while the other is also a surgery that SHOULD be done?

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Spaying/neutering a cat does greatly benefit the cat. In nature the biological drive to reproduce is necessary to ensure survival of the species. As a protected species the domestic cat has no need to reproduce at every opportunity and in fact to do so is detrimental to both the species in general and to the individual cats.

With few predators to control overpopulation unaltered cats quickly consume the available resources needed for them to survive whether they live with humans or not. Cats living in unmanaged feral colonies generally live short, unpleasant lives due to their unchecked numbers consuming all available resources.

Unaltered cats living with humans frequently do little better as their humans usually are not equipped to handle an ever growing number of cats that again outstrip available resources. The humans frequently respond by either becoming "hoarders" and resulting the cats living in abysmal conditions or by dumping the cats far from home where they have little chance of anything other than a short, miserable life or by dumping them at a shelter with the same outcome.

Reproducing as frequently as nature allows also wrecks havoc on a cats health. Unaltered toms fight and can do serious damage to one another. Females have it much worst. The constant bearing and rearing of kittens is destructive to their bodies and can lead to many ailments.

With regard to referring to spaying/neutering as being as "inhumane" as declawing, I have never heard of any permanent, long term negative affect from altering where there can be from declawing. Nobody knows what percentage of cats suffer long term problems as a direct result of declawing but there seems little doubt that some percentage do. Personally, I suspect the percentage is quite low. However, if you find your boy's scratching to be hard to live with how will you feel if he is one of the small percentage that develops litter box avoidance issues after the surgery and starts peeing all over the house?

Exactly what have you tried with regards to your boy's scratching problem? Also, how serious is the problem?

Spaying and neutering are done with one main objective in mind. It stops your cat reproducing. In a society where so many millions of animals are killed due to unwanted pet pregnancies, not spaying/neutering is actually a death sentence for many more animals. Declawing on the other hand, is a procedure done almost exclusively to stop a cat expressing natural behaviours which, whilst in no way detrimental to the cat, are found distasteful by its human. It's mutilation for no good reason.

I personally am against declawing after I heard how its done. I have had no problems with my cats deliberatly scratching furniture, they are polite enough not to do it. I do have problems with them scaling the couch to get to the top when they dont feel like jumping but they havent damaged it. I also have one cat who likes her scratching post, one who scratches rough wood on our tv stand that we built and another who uses the rugs to scratch on. That works good enough for me because they arent scratching the couch. Hercules does have claws that grow funny if left unattended but I trim his claws really short so that way I dont have to worry about them growing into the pad of his foot. So for me Id never declaw my cat unless it was medically necessary for his health or safety.
As for the spaying and neutering, I waited almost 2 yrs before neutering my male cat and the only reason I did that was because his pee smelled so bad it made the whole house smell after he peed even though he wasnt spraying he did start spraying after we adopted our female kitten so it reaffirmed why I was getting him neutered. My female didnt NEED to get spayed after I got Herc fixed but I cant stand females when they go in heat its a main reason why I never purposely adopt female cats they just irritate me but I knew I wouldnt be able to tolerate her for long if she was going into heat also if she happened to sneak out of the house what would I do if she came back pregnant. I wouldnt be able to handle kittens all over and trying to find them homes and get them shots and stuff. It would have been too much for me.

The reasons for both S/N and declawing are quite different but are all heavily cited here, so I won't repeat them.

It's the affect on the cats that are most important to my mind. Declawed cats are no longer able to engage in activities that are integral parts of their daily routines, and this has definite mental-health implications. Cats have trouble indulging in those long delightful stretches when they can't anchor their claws, they have trouble marking their territories, digging, playing, etc., etc. These are instinctual, daily behaviors that require expression for the well-being of the cat.

Spays and neuters, on the other hand, don't deprive the cats of anything at all. In taking the different body parts, the instinct to use those parts goes, too, so the cats don't miss anything and aren't aware of any deprivation. There's no drive to do what they are no longer able to do.

While the reasons for the different surgeries are morally debatable, the after-effects are not.

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

The reasons for both S/N and declawing are quite different but are all heavily cited here, so I won't repeat them.

It's the affect on the cats that are most important to my mind. Declawed cats are no longer able to engage in activities that are integral parts of their daily routines, and this has definite mental-health implications. Cats have trouble indulging in those long delightful stretches when they can't anchor their claws, they have trouble marking their territories, digging, playing, etc., etc. These are instinctual, daily behaviors that require expression for the well-being of the cat.

Spays and neuters, on the other hand, don't deprive the cats of anything at all. In taking the different body parts, the instinct to use those parts goes, too, so the cats don't miss anything and aren't aware of any deprivation. There's no drive to do what they are no longer able to do.

While the reasons for the different surgeries are morally debatable, the after-effects are not.

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Well put Auntie ....

Think of it this way ... Humans get spayed and neutered all the time without major ill effects... Most say it was a great thing. On the other hand no one I know would volunteer to have their first knuckle s chopped off

Originally Posted by sharky

Well put Auntie ....

Think of it this way ... Humans get spayed and neutered all the time without major ill effects... Most say it was a great thing. On the other hand no one I know would volunteer to have their first knuckle s chopped off

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I agree Sharky I would happily volunteer to get spayed but if someone asked me to get my first knuckle chopped off I wouldnt be volunteering.

I guess if someone is considering to declaw a cat perhaps they should ask themselves why they want a cat in the first place.

My personal opinion is I do not agree with declawing, no matter how many leather chairs or wooden things that get wrecked My cats were born with claws and should stay with claws, its imo like pulling your fingernails off, if I cut mine too short it hurts. But the op I agree with spaying and neuturing, especially over in england where there are so many strays and many needy kitties and almost all of our cat shelters do not have a no kill policy, lots of cats are put to sleep everyday that are healthy just because they are unwanted, which makes me very sad, it wasn't so long ago that a member on here posted a thread about an article in an english paper that a cat rescue centre had to find homes for 60 kittens in one day otherwise they would be put to sleep, thats my reason for agreeing with getting cats spayed and neutured, also for health reasons. xx

Concerning spay/neuter: Which is more inhumane - allowing cats to breed uncontrollably, thus causing overpopulation, and unpleasant deaths due to limited resources to keep them alive, or, speutering them and controlling their population so that you can keep them physically fit? Some organizations, which I will not name here, support the former, which is why I would never support them.

And people get speutered to control population also. Is a vasectomy or tubal ligation considered cruel?

And just for the record, people do not have the tips of their fingers amputated. That would be considered torture.

I know a guy who blew the tip of his finger off with a firecracker when he was a kid. Once it healed, it doesn't hurt him, but he finds it very frustrating when he can't pick something up, and holding a pencil is hard for him. And that's just one finger!!

Basically, spaying and neutering saves countless lives. Just think, if my cats weren't fixed (5 males, 6 females), I'd be having 6-12 litters a year, of (average litter size) 4 kittens each. What would I do with 24-48 kittens every year? Especially if spaying/neutering wasn't available, so NOBODY'S cats were fixed. There just aren't enough homes. The only option would be to kill at least some of them. This is what people did before spaying/neutering was available---they drowned kittens, or killed them in some other way. Allowing the population to get out of control is not humane.

Plus, spaying a female has a LOT of health benefits. Pyometra is fairly common. So are ovarian cancer, uterine cancer, and mammary gland cancer. All of which can be prevented by spaying. Personally, if I were SURE I would not be having any kids (and I could get my insurance to pay for it), I'd get a hysterectomy for sure. It would eliminate a lot of worry.

Neutering does not have a lot of health benefits, but really it's unsanitary to live with a cat that pees everywhere. So many males would be put outside, to add to the overpopulation problem.....so even if neutering is done mainly for "behaviorial reasons", in the long run it also saves lives.

Even if an argument could be made that de-clawing"saves lives" (perhaps the cat would be PTS due to scratching issues), fact is, at best it would only save THAT cat's life, and maybe not even that, if the cat develops behavioral problems from the de-clawing. But spaying/neutering saves many more lives than that. At least 4-8 a year per female, and there is no limit to how many kittens a male could father. Plus the lives of the cats being speutered, because they won't be so obnoxious due to sexual behaviors.

De-clawing is also much more painful than spaying/neutering. When I went to pick up Scrappy and Sammy from the vet after their neuters, there was another kitten there that had been neutered and de-clawed. My boys were just sitting there looking dopey, but the de-clawed kitten was trying to stand/sit up, but it was too painful, so every time he tried, he'd throw himself backward from the pain and scream and flop all over the cage. There was blood from his paws smeared everywhere. It was horrible. I wish his owners had seen that.

De-clawing is a very involved orthopedic surgery, whereas neutering is nothing more than a flesh wound. Spaying is more complicated, but still no bone is removed. Ask any human doctor---hand/foot surgeries are more risky, more complicated, and far more painful than any other kind of surgery.

You've already been given the health reasons for spaying & neutering.
You've also already been provided with the humane (cat population) reasons for spaying and neutering.

You have not been given actual facts about declawing. Here they are.

1) Against declawing are:

The ASPCA (no surprise),
The Humane Society of the United States (no surprise),
The Cat Fancier's Association, AND
The American Veterinary Medical Association (official statement: "Declawing of domestic cats should be considered only after attempts have been made to prevent the cat from using its claws destructively or when its clawing presents a zoonotic risk for its owner(s)." ).
Further, in 2006, the USDA - normally an extremely conservative federal agency - amended the Animal Welfare Act to prohibit declawing of exotic carnivores, saying that it "can cause considerable pain and discomfort to the animal and may result in chronic health problems."

2) In 2007, the California Court of Appeals upheld a ban on declawing enacted by the city of West Hollywood, CA, in 2003. Since then, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Beverly Hills have banned declawing.

3) In April 2007, the city of Norfolk, VA banned declawing.

4) Declawing is considered inhumane such that in 23 countries around the world it is illegal, period (unless a medical necessity for the cat).

5) According to Jankowsky et al. in Veterinary Medicine, 1998, Vol. 213, pages 370-373, "Acute complications developed in about half of the onychectomized cats. Long-term complications following the procedure were reported for about one fifth of cats subjected to onychectomy. The authors state that owners should be aware of high complication rates for both onychectomy and tendonectomy procedures.

6) In at least one study, 18% of cats began biting AFTER the declaw:

Yeon SC, Flanders JA, Scarlett JM, et al. Attitudes of owners regarding tendonectomy and onychectomy in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2001;218:43-47.

Summary: Retrospective phone follow-up of teaching hospital clients, DVM student surgeons. 39/98 owners whose cats underwent elective onychectomy or tendonectomy were contacted two months to five years (median 11.5 months) after surgery. 17 (44%) of declawed cats returned to normal within three days, 35 (90%) within two weeks. 31 (80%) had more than one medical complication. 13 (33%) developed at least one behavior problem. 6(15.4%) would not use the litter box and 7 (17.9%) had an increase in biting habits or intensity.

7) Further problems are not freak accidents. Martinez et al. reported in Veterinary Medicine, 1993 that for cats subjected to declawing, 11% exhibited lameness, 17% had wound breakdown, and 10% showed (deformed) claw regrowth.

8) Litter box avoidance is a problem after a declaw. Of course litter should not be used while the cat is recovering, shredded newspaper or something along those lines should be used. That aside, it is not uncommon for cats to develop a long term problem: note the above article, where it was reported in 15% of declawed cats. However, there is also this:

Patronek, GJ, Glickman LT, Beck AM, et al. Risk factors for relinquishment of cats to an animal shelter. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1996;209:582–588

Summary: Case-control study of owned and relinquished cats involving a random digit dial survey of cat owners. Prevalence of declawing was 45%(476/1056) in the owned cat population. In the univariate analysis, declawed cats were at decreased risk of relinquishment compared to non-declawed cats (OR=0.63; 95% CI 0.45-0.87). After adjustment in a multivariate model, declawed cats were at an increased risk of relinquishment (OR=1.89;1.00-3.58); this reversal made the effect of declawing difficult to interpret. Among 218 cats relinquished to a shelter, more (44/84; 52.4%) declawed cats than non-declawed cats (39/134; 29.1%) were reported by owners to have inappropriate elimination (p=0.022).

9) A national survey of shelters from the Caddo Parrish Forgotten Felines and Friends indicates that approximately 70% of cats turned in to shelters for behavioral problems are declawed.

10) From the Summer 2002 issue of PETA’s Animal Times: “A survey by a Delaware animal shelter showed that more than 75% of the cats turned in for avoiding their litter boxes had been declawed.”

The problem is that cats mate out of instinct and hormones, not out of choice. We have the choice to procreate, or to have sex using birth control in order to prevent procreation. Cats do not have this choice and will breed to the detriment of the female. As has already been pointed out, it just so happens that that there are quite a few health and behavior benefits to spaying and neutering apart from addressing the huge cat overpopulation problem.

Spaying and Neutering benefit the cat, the cat population, and the owner.

Declawing benefits only the owner of the cat (unless the cat has a medical necessity for having a claw removed) - and that is if their cat falls into the statistics of having no problems after the procedure.

Declawing is, IMO, a much more major surgery than spay/neuter - because they have to immediately walk on their paws afterwards. Think about if you had an ingrown toenail - there is always the possibility, no matter what vet does the declaw, that the claws will grow back in. We have a kitty at the shelter here that was a biter as a kitten, the owner declawed him - and he was attacking her to the point she had to surrender him. Bea, a former foster of mine, is also a big-time biter & thus couldn't be adopted into a home with kids (and required a very patient owner).

Bea begs you to never declaw

Originally Posted by sharky

Well put Auntie ....

Think of it this way ... Humans get spayed and neutered all the time without major ill effects... Most say it was a great thing. On the other hand no one I know would volunteer to have their first knuckle s chopped off

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My husband lost his fingers down to the first knuckle on his right hand in a punch press machine. Neither my husband nor I would be willing to put any of our cats through that kind of pain.

If you want your cat to stop injuring you and your furniture, try Soft Paws. It's quick and easy when you have someone else hold the cat.

http://www.softpaws.com/

All you do is trim the tips of the claws, stick surgical glue in each plastic cap, stick 'em on the claws, and hang out with your cat for 10 minutes to make sure he doesn't chew them off before they dry. He'll forget he's wearing them, and you usually only need to replace a couple every few weeks. It's not a big time commitment and does no harm to the cat.

I had a cat declawed, and I will never do it again for my sake as well as the cat's. We were lucky our cat didn't develop chronic pain or behavior problems, but I've felt guilty for 12 years. It was a rotten, unnecessary thing to do to a defenseless animal, and it's permanent. She's fine; I'm still a mess over it.

I can't imagine not spaying or neutering a cat. If you decide not to do it, I hope you have no sense of smell for when he starts spraying, and a good pet insurance policy for all the fights he and his man-ness (as you put it) will get into. With the fight wounds come infectious diseases, inevitably, and a shorter lifespan. Unless you plan to keep him inside and let his hormones drive him and you up the wall. One reason we spay and neuter is because it's agonizing for a cat to be unable to mate. (It's also not fun when they do mate, by the way, hence the screaming.)

Why should a cat be forced by its hormones to fight, roam the countryside, and mate when the world doesn't need scores of unwanted kittens? My male cats would much rather stay on the sofa and watch sports. And they have plenty of "man-ness:" They never ask for directions, they leave stuff all over the floor, they never want to see the doctor, and they can't make small-talk to save their lives. They're still guys!

Originally Posted by LDG

You've already been given the health reasons for spaying & neutering.
You've also already been provided with the humane (cat population) reasons for spaying and neutering.

You have not been given actual facts about declawing. Here they are...

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Outstanding citations, LDG. I'm definitely adding these to my library. Good stuff!

I wonder why, if the AVMA has such a clearly-worded statement, vets are still offering declaws with S/N as if they belong together like fries with a burger? *shakes head*

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

I wonder why, if the AVMA has such a clearly-worded statement, vets are still offering declaws with S/N as if they belong together like fries with a burger? *shakes head*

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That's easy. It's a money maker.