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Christian Persecution - will get worse - Page 5

post #121 of 142
11/2/09 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
You may, well, FEEL the government should ban cross necklaces at work but don't hold your breath because it is not going to happen.
Case in point: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews
I think there's a difference, though. AFAIK, the headscarf is required by many Islam and Sikh sects. Most christian denominations don't require their members to wear crosses, so it's a voluntary expression of faith.

Case in point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...ss_controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't get my facts from "the movies and books."

I have no idea what, "a prayer in those circumstances would sound like," and I don't think you do either.
Where do you get your facts from then?

It's not like this kind of thing has never happened to anyone in the entire history of the world. There is no shortage of people who have had near death experiences and have written or spoken about them. We can get a pretty good idea of how people react from those and a good understanding of human nature. The "bargaining" type prayer is common in literature because it rings true to people who read it. I can't say exactly how I would react, but I think I can come up with the most likely scenarios based on the experiences of others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't believe ANYONE can say how they would react to a near death experience.
I truly believe a person can open their heart to the truth and in an instant realize their unbelief was wrong.
That sword cuts both ways. Maybe if you had a gun to your head and you were told to recant your beliefs or die, you would. Like you say, you can't know how you will react in that scenario know matter how badly you want to believe you do. We know how we'd like to react, but that doesn't mean that's what will actually happen. I do know though that there are quite a few atheists who have been in foxholes and come out as atheists, just as there are quite a few Christians who suffered death for their beliefs.
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post #122 of 142
11/2/09 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogs View Post
I think there's a difference, though. AFAIK, the headscarf is required by many Islam and Sikh sects. Most christian denominations don't require their members to wear crosses, so it's a voluntary expression of faith.

Case in point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...ss_controversy

Your link has nothing to do with the country I live in.


Where do you get your facts from then?

Not from make believe.

It's not like this kind of thing has never happened to anyone in the entire history of the world. There is no shortage of people who have had near death experiences and have written or spoken about them. We can get a pretty good idea of how people react from those and a good understanding of human nature. The "bargaining" type prayer is common in literature because it rings true to people who read it. I can't say exactly how I would react, but I think I can come up with the most likely scenarios based on the experiences of others.

I know there are many people that have had near death experiences and lived to share those experiences. "Life After Life is a very famous book of near death experiences by surviors. For all of them it was life changing.



That sword cuts both ways. Maybe if you had a gun to your head and you were told to recant your beliefs or die, you would. Like you say, you can't know how you will react in that scenario know matter how badly you want to believe you do. We know how we'd like to react, but that doesn't mean that's what will actually happen. I do know though that there are quite a few atheists who have been in foxholes and come out as atheists, just as there are quite a few Christians who suffered death for their beliefs.
You, "do know?" You know these people personally?
I would pray that I would die before I denied Jesus.
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post #123 of 142
11/2/09 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogs View Post
I think there's a difference, though. AFAIK, the headscarf is required by many Islam and Sikh sects. Most christian denominations don't require their members to wear crosses, so it's a voluntary expression of faith.
To be honest, I think the manner of dress is more cultural than religious. In Beirut, it was actually common to see muslim women in western styles, like blue jeans. Now, the times of day and ritual for prayers is a religious requirement though.
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post #124 of 142
11/2/09 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Would it offend you if I said that I think that any Christian can open their heart and realize that Jesus is not the son of god and believing in that was just a big lie?? Because that is what your earlier statement can be turned around as.
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post #125 of 142
11/2/09 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Would it offend you if I said that I think that any Christian can open their heart and realize that Jesus is not the son of god and believing in that was just a big lie?? Because that is what your earlier statement can be turned around as.
Yes, that is what you Twisted my post to say, but your spin doesn't change my post.
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post #126 of 142
11/2/09 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Yes, that is what you Twisted my post to say, but your spin doesn't change my post.
my intention was not to twist your words, I was just trying to show you what I saw in your post from the point of an atheist.
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post #127 of 142
11/2/09 at 4:19pm
According to the U.S. Treasury, "In God We Trust" first appeared on the 2 cent coin in 1864 Less than 100 years after the birth of our Nation.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fac...we-trust.shtml

Quote:
The Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.
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post #128 of 142
11/2/09 at 4:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Your link has nothing to do with the country I live in.
Sure, except that the circumstances she was fired under were almost identical to the Home Depot employee in the OP. What's Home Depot's police with turbans and head dresses? I bet they're allowed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Not from make believe.
You said make-believe, not me. There are things like autobiographies, memoirs, personal interviews, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I know there are many people that have had near death experiences and lived to share those experiences. "Life After Life is a very famous book of near death experiences by surviors. For all of them it was life changing.
Just to be clear, I'm not referring to the NDE's where people think they see lights, loved ones, etc. Those are pretty irrelevant to our discussion, which is how atheists respond in life or death experiences. What I'm specifically referring to is the "There are no atheists in foxholes" quip you paraphrased earlier. As far as Christian theology is concerned, once you're dead your fate is sealed one way or the other, so it doesn't really matter if you're shown the truth at that point or not. Otherwise, if you get to say "oh, ok, I believe now" then that pretty much makes your religious choice during life meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
You, "do know?" You know these people personally?
I would pray that I would die before I denied Jesus.
There's actually a group called "Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers." I've met a couple of members online, but never personally. You can read some of their histories and how no, they didn't feel compelled to pray when the bullets started flying, here.

And like I said, just because you know how you would like to behave in a given circumstance doesn't mean you will.
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post #129 of 142
11/2/09 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
So, we shouldn't worry about righting the wrongs of the past if it may cost too much to do so? It was spending before, and cost a great deal of money to incorporate the phrase, yet it didn't keep them from putting it on.
Yes, that is correct. Our economy is in the toilet NOW. I don't care about 40-50 years ago. We can't afford to change it, and I don't see why anyone should get their panties in a wad over it. IT IS INSIGNIFICANT in overall world order.

Liberals always seem to want to re-write history. Just because you think it is wrong now, doesn't mean that it was wrong then. It's a part of our history as a nation and a part of our national heritage. It's harmless. Leave it alone.
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post #130 of 142
11/2/09 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty's Mom View Post
Yes, that is correct. Our economy is in the toilet NOW. I don't care about 40-50 years ago. We can't afford to change it, and I don't see why anyone should get their panties in a wad over it. IT IS INSIGNIFICANT in overall world order.

Liberals always seem to want to re-write history. Just because you think it is wrong now, doesn't mean that it was wrong then. It's a part of our history as a nation and a part of our national heritage. It's harmless. Leave it alone.
So, you're saying that the bill of rights said something different then? Where can we find a copy of what it used to say?

Slavery, native American massacres, and witch trials are all part of our history as a nation and part of our national heritage as well. They are all harmless now, so where's the pride in them?

Besides, who said anything about re-writing history? Right the wrongs, and leave the wrongs in the past as history, where they belong. Then, just maybe, we won't let them happen again.
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post #131 of 142
11/2/09 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catkiki View Post
According to the U.S. Treasury, "In God We Trust" first appeared on the 2 cent coin in 1864 Less than 100 years after the birth of our Nation.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fac...we-trust.shtml
Good information. Reading through the correspondence that led up to the change makes it pretty clear they were talking specifically about the christian god and not some amorphous creator-deity. That's exactly the sort of context I was referring to earlier with Dusty's Mom.
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post #132 of 142
11/2/09 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post

Slavery, native American massacres, and witch trials are all part of our history as a nation and part of our national heritage as well. They are all harmless now, so where's the pride in them?
very good analogy!
It is also in our history that women are not allowed to vote but thanks to activism we changed that..but thankfully there were more people willing to fight for their beliefs than there were people saying we can't afford it and we have bigger things to worry about
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post #133 of 142
11/2/09 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catkiki View Post
According to the U.S. Treasury, "In God We Trust" first appeared on the 2 cent coin in 1864 Less than 100 years after the birth of our Nation.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fac...we-trust.shtml
Other parts of that site are also very interesting, such as the part that says new coin designs are being released annually. So apparently, changing designs isn't such a big, prohibitively expensive deal after all.
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post #134 of 142
11/2/09 at 7:34pm
Changing our currency and coinage at this time is just not high on the priority list.
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post #135 of 142
11/2/09 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Changing our currency and coinage at this time is just not high on the priority list.
According to the treasury's own website, it's an ongoing process. 2014 currency isn't planned yet...they could start then.
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post #136 of 142
11/3/09 at 3:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty's Mom View Post
Liberals always seem to want to re-write history. Just because you think it is wrong now, doesn't mean that it was wrong then. It's a part of our history as a nation and a part of our national heritage. It's harmless. Leave it alone.
This is a rather blatant and unsubstantiated generalization. As a matter of fact, it sounds like something someone would get by listening to Fox "News." Can you please provide enough specific examples of how all liberals want to "re-write history" to justify this ludicrous remark?
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post #137 of 142
11/3/09 at 6:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Other parts of that site are also very interesting, such as the part that says new coin designs are being released annually. So apparently, changing designs isn't such a big, prohibitively expensive deal after all.
Our coins seem to be constantly changing, for instance the quarters have all been changed to reflect the Olympics coming up in early 2010. These coins are just released out there and mix it up with the old coins. Now that we have the Loonie and Toonie these coins are easy to change as well.
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post #138 of 142
11/3/09 at 6:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
To be honest, I think the manner of dress is more cultural than religious. In Beirut, it was actually common to see muslim women in western styles, like blue jeans. Now, the times of day and ritual for prayers is a religious requirement though.
What muslims do and what islam requires are often two completely seperate things. There is a religious basis for women covering their hair, but not everyone acknowledges it, or even if they do, follow it.

Also nothing wrong with wearing western styles, so long as they're modest, paired with a headscarf. That's what I do every day
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post #139 of 142
11/3/09 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahma View Post
What muslims do and what islam requires are often two completely seperate things. There is a religious basis for women covering their hair, but not everyone acknowledges it, or even if they do, follow it.

Also nothing wrong with wearing western styles, so long as they're modest, paired with a headscarf. That's what I do every day
Thank you. I had heard that somewhere before (you may have been the one that told me). But I didn't remember well enough to source it and couldn't claim to know it as fact.
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post #140 of 142
11/3/09 at 8:03am
What I find really interesting is that you don't hear as many public complaints from other religions about persecution as you do from the Christians. I'm pretty sure they experience far more persecution than do Christians. Wonder why that is?
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post #141 of 142
11/3/09 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
What I find really interesting is that you don't hear as many public complaints from other religions about persecution as you do from the Christians. I'm pretty sure they experience far more persecution than do Christians. Wonder why that is?
Possibly because no other religion is "required" to be persecuted?
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post #142 of 142
11/4/09 at 12:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
You may, well, FEEL the government should ban cross necklaces at work but don't hold your breath because it is not going to happen.
Case in point: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews
Thanks for that link. Completely different but anywho.
I don't live in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
What I find really interesting is that you don't hear as many public complaints from other religions about persecution as you do from the Christians. I'm pretty sure they experience far more persecution than do Christians. Wonder why that is?
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