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Lutheran Church of Sweden to conduct gay weddings - Page 2

post #31 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
It's society's concern when underage girls are forced into polygamous relationships, which is something that has often been documented.
It would be society's concern if anyone were forced into a monogamous relationship too. I buy that the underage part makes it worse; I'm not sure the mono/poly does, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Its the same with homosexality - you have to take the entire Bible and not one or two lines. In the OT, it does state about it being wrong for a man to lay with another man as he would with a woman and vice versa (for a woman). So that covers homosexuality.
If you take that wording completely literally, it means they're fine as long as they do it standing up. I'm not saying that's what I think it means but everyone is going to have their own opinion about what's too literal or not literal enough.

How about "everything is permissible for me"? Obviously the point there isn't that people should do whatever they want to regardless of whether it causes harm, but it does imply that Rules aren't the big deal they're sometimes made out to be (because let's face it, no one's perfect anyway). To my way of thinking, rules get in the way...Christianity has gotten so tangled up in positions on social issues that people who have an opposing viewpoint write Christianity off. Which I think is a shame, not in the least because I think that if people were to meet God for themselves, He would teach them how to live better than any set of rules would.
post #32 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Its the same with homosexality - you have to take the entire Bible and not one or two lines. In the OT, it does state about it being wrong for a man to lay with another man as he would with a woman and vice versa (for a woman). So that covers homosexuality.
Are we talking Levitical Law? Then yes, it does, but only for the Israelites, in regards to their exclusive covenant with God. And even then, many have interpreted that it wasn't a condemnation against homosexuality per se, but against engaging in the practices of other pagan nations and dilluting Israel as a nation. More of a cultural issue than a sexual one. And certainly not something to be used as a bludgeoning stick by other religions. That seems contemptuous in its own right.
post #33 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Re divorce and the Bible. People take one or two passages out of the Bible and not the entire cross reference. God "permits" divorce under very strict guidelines. He (as well as most people) do NOT like divorce, but it is allowed.

If you research the entire Bible and cross refer and study the Word, you will find the truth. Not just in one or two lines.

Its the same with homosexality - you have to take the entire Bible and not one or two lines. In the OT, it does state about it being wrong for a man to lay with another man as he would with a woman and vice versa (for a woman). So that covers homosexuality.
Um, then slavery is also OK?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)regards,

christine
post #34 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Re divorce and the Bible. People take one or two passages out of the Bible and not the entire cross reference. God "permits" divorce under very strict guidelines. He (as well as most people) do NOT like divorce, but it is allowed.

If you research the entire Bible and cross refer and study the Word, you will find the truth. Not just in one or two lines.

Its the same with homosexality - you have to take the entire Bible and not one or two lines. In the OT, it does state about it being wrong for a man to lay with another man as he would with a woman and vice versa (for a woman). So that covers homosexuality.
As you know, Luke is not the only book in which divorce (apparently without exception) is said to be unlawful.

To be fair, however, I do know that in Matthew at least, Jesus allows for adultery as grounds for divorce. Are you telling me that every divorced Protestant who remarries in his or her church was actually divorced on these grounds?

Again, my point isn't that divorce is wrong, but that some people seem more open to some sorts of interpretation of scripture than others!
post #35 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
And yet no one is forced to do anything. Any clergy that don't wish to perform ceremonies can decline. The Swedes are on top of things.
Actually it took them quite a while to get to this point. And to some degree parliament is pushing this on the church a bit - church officials are elected there, if they don't play to the public they'll have problems.

But what's rather funny is that only something like 2% of people actually attend church services. Since the Lutheran church in Scandinavian countries is more like "you're a member till you opt out" their listed number of christians is off. After making it easy to resign from the church a lot of people have done so, making numbers for the church drop. Among younger groups it's not popular (ridiculed more or less) at all, with people either going to other religions (pretty healthy pagan and satanists populations over there) or being non-religious.
So it was more of a matter of keeping up with the times.

My only concern is that with growing immigrant populations there - primarily the islamic population that has already caused issues, that there may be some backlash from them.
post #36 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Its the same with homosexality - you have to take the entire Bible and not one or two lines. In the OT, it does state about it being wrong for a man to lay with another man as he would with a woman and vice versa (for a woman). So that covers homosexuality.
by the way- if you take the entire bible and not one or two lines all homosexual men should be killed :

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



regards,

christine
post #37 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
NO where in the Christian Bible is homosexuality or same-sex marriages acceptable. If a "church" is performing them they are going against Scripture and are therefore teaching and practicing FALSE religion and practices..
Where in the Bible does it say it's not acceptable? I'm seriously asking, I've never read the entire Bible. And also, which translation says it's unacceptable. What did the original writings say?

The following relationships are mentioned and condoned in the Bible, along with the one man, one woman relationsip: Polygynous marriages, where a man can have as many wives as he can afford; Levirate Marriage, which forced a woman whose husband had died and who had no son to marry her brother in law; A man, a woman, and a female slave - if the wife couldn't have children, it was okay for the man to "marry" a female slave and make children on her; one man, one or more wives, and one or more concubines; Male soldier and female prisoner of war; and a Male rapist and his victim.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bibl0.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Lutheran churches (and any other demonination) that does this is a false church and will suffer consequences for their actions against God's written words/laws.

Whether you believe in the Bible or not, doesn't matter - the truth is still the same.
No one faith has a lock on the "only" truth. All religions are more or less man-made and I think all have kernels of truth. None of us will know what is true until we pass from this world and see what we find on the other side. We all believe what we believe, and anyone who claims to be a Christian should do what Jesus did in his life and practice tolerance for all. If I recall my teachings, the only ones who felt Jesus' wrath were the money lenders.
post #38 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Re divorce and the Bible. People take one or two passages out of the Bible and not the entire cross reference. God "permits" divorce under very strict guidelines. He (as well as most people) do NOT like divorce, but it is allowed.

If you research the entire Bible and cross refer and study the Word, you will find the truth. Not just in one or two lines.

Its the same with homosexality - you have to take the entire Bible and not one or two lines. In the OT, it does state about it being wrong for a man to lay with another man as he would with a woman and vice versa (for a woman). So that covers homosexuality.
Wow.

So it's all cut and dried, huh? If we led our lives according to Leviticus in this day and age, there would be so many people breaking the laws, we wouldn't have places to put them.....guess they'd all have to be killed....just like the old days.

As has been said before, the Bible is filled with writings that are interpretations, from old scrolls found centuries ago. The New Testament was written by men who were inspired by Jesus to write about his life, or, in Paul's case, to write letters to the different communities to follow Christ's teachings. Paul's letters are some of the most beautiful writings I've ever read. They're letters.....and written as such.

Let me tell you about my friend. He's a Lutheran minister here in NYC. He's in a committed relationship with his partner. They knew each other in high school, and re-connected a couple of years ago, after having lost touch. It turns out they had always loved each other. Now they're together. And now, thanks to the ELCA conference a couple of months ago, they can be open in the church, he can adminster the Sacrament as an openly gay man, and their relationship can be recognized.

He is one of the most spiritual people I know, and I'm proud to know him. He has dedicated his life to service (as Christ teaches us....."the last shall be first") and is a wonderful pastor.

But, according to your interpretation of the bible, he and his partner should be shunned and turned out of the church.

I just have to shake my head at how some people can quote chapter and verse, but when it comes down to Christ's teaching, they coldly turn their backs.
post #39 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty8723 View Post
........We all believe what we believe, and anyone who claims to be a Christian should do what Jesus did in his life and practice tolerance for all. If I recall my teachings, the only ones who felt Jesus' wrath were the money lenders.
Thank you. Well said!
post #40 of 47
As I said - you guys are only taking ONE or TWO references regarding divorce or homosexuality. You have to sit down and cross refer things from OT and NT if you want the truth. Its too complicated just to type in a few sentences here.

I'm currently reading a book regarding Divorce and the Bible and its very enlightening how they bring both OT & NT together in cross references and really explain things in the proper perspective.
post #41 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
As I said - you guys are only taking ONE or TWO references regarding divorce or homosexuality. You have to sit down and cross refer things from OT and NT if you want the truth. Its too complicated just to type in a few sentences here.
OK- so tell me how this is to be understood?

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Please cross reference for me so I can understand your point. What exactly is the truth and what is meant by "they have forfeited their lives."? I took this to mean that they should be killed- in which way did I get this wrong?

Again- the point here is how literally should one take the bible and does this really mean homosexualls shouldn't be able to marry in church? Why do you take the first half of the sentence literally- but not the second half refering to the forfeit of their lives?

regards,

christine
post #42 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
As I said - you guys are only taking ONE or TWO references regarding divorce or homosexuality. You have to sit down and cross refer things from OT and NT if you want the truth. Its too complicated just to type in a few sentences here.
That's pretty convenient! For what it's worth, I'm not unfamiliar with the bible.

I don't object to your interpretation per se. What I object to is the condemnation of Christian denominations (e.g. these are the "false churches" mentioned in Revelation) whose interpretations differ from yours.

As far as cross-referencing goes, it's worth noting that Jesus says nothing about homosexuality in the Gospels. A little odd given how crucial to Christianity the issue seems to be in the eyes of many.
post #43 of 47
To each their own........



.......yup that about sums it up!
post #44 of 47
I dont wander into threads like this much, but really now, come on!
People want to keep gay men and women from being togethor in a commited relationship because of some ancent text written not by God, but by men?
DId they forsee health issues, no. Did they forsee the fact some evil has turned the Bible for their own cause?
Spiling seed is also a sin, so any of you guys, your going to hell.
Wife cheatng? Stone her.
Plunder and rape, thats OK fine.
Sacrifice a goat to prove you love God.
Oh that is not done anymore, well color me stupid, why is the rest of it still done?
I have read the Bible. Cover to cover, even the Begots, all 140 pages or so, I think, my mind blanked after about 20 pages.
post #45 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh27 View Post
OK- so tell me how this is to be understood?

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Please cross reference for me so I can understand your point. What exactly is the truth and what is meant by "they have forfeited their lives."? I took this to mean that they should be killed- in which way did I get this wrong?

Again- the point here is how literally should one take the bible and does this really mean homosexualls shouldn't be able to marry in church? Why do you take the first half of the sentence literally- but not the second half refering to the forfeit of their lives?

regards,

christine
Leviticus is the Old Testament. Christ came, he changed much. No more "An eye for an eye" stuff anymore. Thank you Jesus, for your ultimate sacrifice for us sinners.
post #46 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Leviticus is the Old Testament. Christ came, he changed much. No more "An eye for an eye" stuff anymore. Thank you Jesus, for your ultimate sacrifice for us sinners.

... not if you take the bible literally:


"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven". (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)


"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

Heaven and earth haven't passed away quite yet.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Jesus in Matthew 5:17 NAB)

According to Jesus and the OT the an eye for an eye thing still counts ..... IF you take it literally... which is what GoldenKitty seems to be doing.

The point I'm trying to make is that picking out sentences from the OT to explain why same-sex-marriages aren't OK is like cherry picking the bits you like or don't like from the bible.

And randomly picking out the bits that say that homosexuality isn't OK just doesn't seem fair or even sensible.

regards,

christine
post #47 of 47
Thread Starter 
The point to remember is that truth is subjective, while fact is objective.

A teenager who honestly believes he actually saw a submarine at the submarine races is telling the truth...but is it fact?

The farmer that is completely certain he saw UFO aliens riding bulls in his field is telling the truth...but is it fact?
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