Interesting visit to the vet...

kittyxsasha12

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Since moving, I can no longer bring my cats to their usual vet, so I tried one around here. I brought them there to figure out a good diet for them (my plan was going to be either all raw or half raw and half dry, but I wanted a vet's opinion). Anyway, when I told the vet about my plan, she immediately starting lecturing me about how raw food is "bad" for cats, something to do with digestion and worms. Then she started pushing Science Diet on me (which I refuse to feed my cats because it has by-products in it), saying it was the healthiest food for cats.

I shall continue my search for a good vet...
 

sharky

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that is a response that is getting less and less thankfully....

by products are NOT bad ... raw food contains alot of them ... the difference is You and I in 90% of predone raw foods and 100% of homemade raw s know WHAT the by products and in what quanity they are used....
 
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kittyxsasha12

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So...it's ok for a vet to tell me raw food is bad and to push Science Diet on me?

Sorry about the by-products thing, I've just read that if the first ingredient is chicken by-product meal, it's not very good...
 

carolina

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Science Diet is pretty Junky, BUT there are instances where it is necessary.... The thing with vets ans SD, is that the few classes in nutrition they get are sponsored by Hills (manufacturer), and they also get some perks, continuing education, and associates benefits..... so..... vets sell their stuff, and will naturally push it.
As far as by-products, chicken by-product is ok.... The one that is BAD, BAAAAAD is "Meat by-product" and "meat by-product meal".
If I recall correctly though, there is a lot of corn, soy and other grain and junk on SD.... other reasons why you should stay away. It is full of fillers, not much nutrition.
Vets in general do not really know about nutrition, unfortunately..... but that do not mean they are bad vets.... You just don't go there for that- you come here
.
Please don't judge a vet by the fact that he/she will push SD on you - most of them will... How was the rest of the consultation? Can you check online referrals? Do your neighbors have pets you could ask for referals?
About feeding Raw and dry: NOT a good idea - they have different digestion times, and it can be dangerous, the bacteria from the raw can flourish and be toxic for your kitty, as the dry food digestion is much slower.... So in a way your vet was correct on this...
I am by no means an expert on this, but I did research this route before, and was stopped on my tracks...
Do a lot of research on this, I do think this is not a healthy diet option for your cat.... unless you give the raw as an occasional treat...
Good luck!
 

sharky

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Sorry I should have been clearer ...NO vet should be that way.. As Carolina explained most vets are ill informed on nutrition ... this is changing thou which is what I wes trying to say... Example a local VERY conventional vet who actually went and looked up a diet to carry in the clinic that was NOT full of by product meals ( which in many cases contain things like heads and feet and not as many organs ).. Which is why I Note them in Magenta as something IMHO to avoid ...

Carolina is correct on the dry and raw ... some have done this without issue but my VERY nutrition minded vet said NO NO ... You can feed dry and raw the recommendation for safety is 8-12 hours apart ... ie feed dry in the evening and raw in the morning ... I support raw feeding but do give a GREAT amount of CAUTION and suggest ONLY doing it with a vet who is at the least supportive to aid you in the journey
 

fiddledee

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You can tell how much a veterinarian has been trained on nutrition depending on where they went to school. Most vets display their diplomas in their practice [and if they don't, there's something fishy going on]. I know that some veterinary colleges around my general area do not even have a Nutrition class! Or the class is only worth a 1/2 hour credit, which is nothing at all...some even less.

Colorado State, Auburn University, Louisiana State University, and Univ. of Florida all have 2+ hour classes of animal nutrition. I'm sure more do, but I'm only citing the ones I've applied for... Actually, I am forced to take a class in Animal Nutrition before getting into vet school.

Also, upon finiding out where your vet graduated from, you should be able to find something on the school's website with the course requirements:

Auburn Vet School Itenerary

LSU Vet School Curriculum

UGA Vet School Classes

These are just a few examples. Do a little research behind your vet and it will help.



As always with raw feeding, NEVER do it without a vet's continuous support. Most of the time it is good for your pet, but due to simple mistakes it can be risky. Go to the raw feeding forum linked on this board and I'm sure you'll get any questions answered. Do research on your vet as well to see where they graduated from and what kind of nutrition rotation did they have. Ask them if it was sponsored by a food company [if it was extremely sponsored and even taught by someone like SD, I'd avoid that vet unless they had further instruction somewhere else.]
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by Fiddledee

You can tell how much a veterinarian has been trained on nutrition depending on where they went to school. Most vets display their diplomas in their practice [and if they don't, there's something fishy going on]. I know that some veterinary colleges around my general area do not even have a Nutrition class! Or the class is only worth a 1/2 hour credit, which is nothing at all...some even less.

Colorado State, Auburn University, Louisiana State University, and Univ. of Florida all have 2+ hour classes of animal nutrition. I'm sure more do, but I'm only citing the ones I've applied for... Actually, I am forced to take a class in Animal Nutrition before getting into vet school.

Also, upon finiding out where your vet graduated from, you should be able to find something on the school's website with the course requirements:

Auburn Vet School Itenerary

LSU Vet School Curriculum

UGA Vet School Classes

These are just a few examples. Do a little research behind your vet and it will help.



As always with raw feeding, NEVER do it without a vet's continuous support. Most of the time it is good for your pet, but due to simple mistakes it can be risky. Go to the raw feeding forum linked on this board and I'm sure you'll get any questions answered. Do research on your vet as well to see where they graduated from and what kind of nutrition rotation did they have. Ask them if it was sponsored by a food company [if it was extremely sponsored and even taught by someone like SD, I'd avoid that vet unless they had further instruction somewhere else.]
Keep researching... 3 credit hours is the NORM for vet schools
unless they have GONE DOWN in nutrition time ... WSU is semi sponsored by Innova ( ie innova gives food to them

Mine came out of washington and idaho with decent nutrition educations , ie they went on further
 

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Originally Posted by Fiddledee

As always with raw feeding, NEVER do it without a vet's continuous support.
Raw feeding really is not complicated at all, the average person is quite capable of researching on their own.
 

nekochan

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If I really wanted a vet's help on my pets' diet I would go to a veterinary nutritionist or someone who had done more training in nutrition after vet school.

Most vets get very little training so it is pretty normal to hear a response like that.
 

furryfriends50

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddledee
As always with raw feeding, NEVER do it without a vet's continuous support.
Raw feeding really is not complicated at all, the average person is quite capable of researching on their own.
I agree
I don't get why people keep saying to do tons of reseach and have vets that will work with you. I feed all raw. My barn cats haven't seen a vet except to get fixed...and all the vets around here are so pro science diet/iams/purina that I don't trust them anyway. I honestly just jumped right in after I figured out the percents and added a bit of fish oil. Not hard at all...Raw feeding is a learning experience. I have no vet support and am still learning about raw and yet mine have gone all raw for maybe two months and were eating 1/2 raw for 4 months before that.
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by furryfriends50

I agree
I don't get why people keep saying to do tons of reseach and have vets that will work with you. I feed all raw. My barn cats haven't seen a vet except to get fixed...and all the vets around here are so pro science diet/iams/purina that I don't trust them anyway. I honestly just jumped right in after I figured out the percents and added a bit of fish oil. Not hard at all...Raw feeding is a learning experience. I have no vet support and am still learning about raw and yet mine have gone all raw for maybe two months and were eating 1/2 raw for 4 months before that.
IT falls under the adage An OUNCE of prevention is WORTH a lb of cure... Having a good plan in place which like a human means ALL diets should be discussed with a MEDICAL professional..... IMHO those who Choose not to are playing Russian roulette IMHO ... Have I seen raw illnesses yes NOT in my own animals luckily but I have seen them in others...
 

mschauer

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Originally Posted by sharky

IT falls under the adage An OUNCE of prevention is WORTH a lb of cure... Having a good plan in place which like a human means ALL diets should be discussed with a MEDICAL professional..... IMHO those who Choose not to are playing Russian roulette IMHO ... Have I seen raw illnesses yes NOT in my own animals luckily but I have seen them in others...
I think this is the crux of the issue. If you are most comfortable with getting a physicians stamp of approval on your own diet then you likely will be most comfortable with getting a vets approval of your kitties diet. If, on the other hand, you are comfortable with doing your own research when it comes to feeding yourself you will probably be fine with doing the research needed to feed your cat.
 

esrandall2000

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When I switched vets to a CAT SPECIALIST and she didn't have the vapors when I told her I fed all my cats a raw diet and instead said, "Great," I knew I had a good 'un!!!!!!!!
:cl ap:
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by mschauer

I think this is the crux of the issue. If you are most comfortable with getting a physicians stamp of approval on your own diet then you likely will be most comfortable with getting a vets approval of your kitties diet. If, on the other hand, you are comfortable with doing your own research when it comes to feeding yourself you will probably be fine with doing the research needed to feed your cat.
I call it a back up ...lol..Most that say they can do just fine have issues at some pt on the road
those who have back up to the research , much of which is often wrong anymore( as the studies and research keep coming) do not have issues or fix them quickly...

I happen to know I am NOT perfect nor infallible thus I will use all the back up I can with my babies and myself.... So far I and the kids have managed to beat or alliviate supposely fatel issues via this method
 

fiddledee

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Sorry if I sound offensive and I don't want to step out of bounds, but I am getting a tad offended and I feel like I'm being attacked over simple advice.

I say "talk with your vet" because you should. Yes, we [I'm enrolling in vet school] don't know your pets as well as you, but we do know a little something. I mean, I'm devoting 8-10 years of my life to learn everything I can about how to keep animals healthy, and for the sake of their owners. Me and other vets sometimes find it offensive when we went through the effort of schooling and sacrificed years to gain knowledge, only to have it doubted and thrown in our face. It's just advice from a well-rounded professional. I am not saying that anyone is incompetent, but it's not good to make any drastic changes in diet without having a vet to turn to for a little advice. Yes, we do know a little something and we want to share knowledge with pet owners for the sake of the animals.

Most vets are in contact with the latest research. The veterinarian I work for and will intern under has to go to at least 2 vet conferences a year. During those conferences, innovations and research is presented. Unless the owner goes out of his/her way to travel to these conferences [or if they are able to get in], or subscribes to vet research magazines, they won't get the same exposure to new things.

All a vet wants to do is help you and benefit the life of your animal. I feel that most people don't want to "talk to their vet" for some reason. It's as if vets are being told "you don't know squat." I don't want the 8 years I go to school to be in vain and a waste of money.



Sorry for the rant, I just felt my words were being unneedlessly attacked. Sorry if I offend anyone...but it really is not good to embark on something like raw feeding without doing loads of research yourself, asking your vet for advice, or talking to an animal nutrition specialist [which most of the time has a D.V.M.]
 

carolina

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I totally understand your frustration, and I really admire and have nothing about vets, however, about vets and nutrition.....
Originally Posted by Fiddledee

but it's not good to make any drastic changes in diet without having a vet to turn to for a little advice.
Agree...

Most vets are in contact with the latest research. The veterinarian I work for and will intern under has to go to at least 2 vet conferences a year. During those conferences, innovations and research is presented. Unless the owner goes out of his/her way to travel to these conferences [or if they are able to get in], or subscribes to vet research magazines, they won't get the same exposure to new things.
Are these conferences funded and realized by Hills, the makers of Science Diet? Because a LOT of them are, and that is where the problem lies... A large percentage of vets know only about science diet, when it comes to discussing and advising about nutrition which I am sorry... but it is not the best thing in the world, to say the least.
 

fiddledee

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The vet I am employed for attends conferences that are held by the school she's an alumni of. They have different speakers that are all doctors, and have specialties in things like dermatology, cardiovascular, nutrition, and other things. It's kind of like a presentation among the many realms of research. The two conferences she attends are both sponsored by the vet school itself [Auburn University].

And I agree that Science Diet is not the best option for any pet. My vet only promotes Pro-Plan at some points because they have perscription food. [EN, CV, certain things for animals with health issues]. She feeds her own animals Blue Buffalo, both the cats and dogs. A good way to gauge a vet's opinion on food is to ask what they give their own pets.

From what I'm aware, Auburn University College of Veterinary Medicine does not have affiliation with Science Diet. I've not seen any of that food type within the vet school itself, seen any pamphlets or advertisements, nor does the nutrition specialist there have affiliation with it. That's the university I'm currently attending and what my vet attended. I don't really know about other vet schools in the country...I think LSU has a pretty good nutrition program as well, as does Colorado State.
 

auntie crazy

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Originally Posted by mschauer

I think this is the crux of the issue. If you are most comfortable with getting a physicians stamp of approval on your own diet then you likely will be most comfortable with getting a vets approval of your kitties diet. If, on the other hand, you are comfortable with doing your own research when it comes to feeding yourself you will probably be fine with doing the research needed to feed your cat.
I just read this thread... love this paragraph - well said, Mschauer!

I don't seek my doctor's advice when planning my own menu and I haven't consulted a vet in planning my cats', 'though I totally love both my doc and my vet (who works at a cat-specialized hospital). It's not about not respecting them, it's about accepting their limits; diet and nutrition is not their specialty.

And recreating a mouse isn't rocket science, nor do I have to dissect and analyze the mouse myself; raw-feeding information is readily available to those who wish to try it. And feeding a mouse is even easier - God (or nature, if you don't believe in God) has already done the calculating for you. :-)

Edited to add:

While I believe that kibble feeding is directly responsible for many of the afflictions our cats suffer from (in nearly epidemic proportions), and a raw food diet is the holy grail of cat food, raw feeding DOES require more time and attention from an owner than does tossing kibble in a bowl.

If you home-prepare, you must either grind your ingredients together, ensure your cat eats the organs and bone-in meals offered via frankenprey, or handle the dead animals that constitute a whole prey menu. Alternatively, you can purchase commercially-prepared raw meals, but this can be expensive and you must again deal with quality issues, contaminants and fillers.

Recreating the mouse is not all that difficult, but feeding a raw diet cat WILL take more time and effort from the owner. For me, the trade-off is more than worth it, but this is a comfort level issue and everyone has the right to make their own choices.

Kibble is dangerous to cats and should be removed from all feline bowls, but feeding grain-free canned is a viable alternative if an owner does not have the resources (either time or money) to feed raw.
 

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Originally Posted by Fiddledee

Sorry if I sound offensive and I don't want to step out of bounds, but I am getting a tad offended and I feel like I'm being attacked over simple advice.

I say "talk with your vet" because you should. Yes, we [I'm enrolling in vet school] don't know your pets as well as you, but we do know a little something. I mean, I'm devoting 8-10 years of my life to learn everything I can about how to keep animals healthy, and for the sake of their owners. Me and other vets sometimes find it offensive when we went through the effort of schooling and sacrificed years to gain knowledge, only to have it doubted and thrown in our face. It's just advice from a well-rounded professional. I am not saying that anyone is incompetent, but it's not good to make any drastic changes in diet without having a vet to turn to for a little advice. Yes, we do know a little something and we want to share knowledge with pet owners for the sake of the animals.

Most vets are in contact with the latest research. The veterinarian I work for and will intern under has to go to at least 2 vet conferences a year. During those conferences, innovations and research is presented. Unless the owner goes out of his/her way to travel to these conferences [or if they are able to get in], or subscribes to vet research magazines, they won't get the same exposure to new things.

All a vet wants to do is help you and benefit the life of your animal. I feel that most people don't want to "talk to their vet" for some reason. It's as if vets are being told "you don't know squat." I don't want the 8 years I go to school to be in vain and a waste of money.



Sorry for the rant, I just felt my words were being unneedlessly attacked. Sorry if I offend anyone...but it really is not good to embark on something like raw feeding without doing loads of research yourself, asking your vet for advice, or talking to an animal nutrition specialist [which most of the time has a D.V.M.]
I just joined this site and have been reading alot of the posts (seems to be alot of people who visits vets on a very reg schedule.) I see your frustration in feeling the need to defend yourself (I hope this comes out right
) but I think alot of people have been screwed over by vets (not here but in general)...I have myself many times and dont trust alot of them (and to be honest I dont have the $60-$70 it costs just to get in to see one to keep trying till I find one I like) I am sure there are alot of good vets out there but I think there are more who will just take your money cause they can. I just went to the vet with my dog (we moved to a new city so I had never seen any of the vets here) I thought my dog had a tick inbetween her toes, they did free tick removal...so off we go to be told that its not a tick its a growth and we would have to come back the next day. So the next day we go back, sit in the vets office for about a half an hour, finally he comes in runs his hands down her back and says she looks healthy what can he do for us. I explained about the foot thinking at first it was a tick and being told they didnt know what it was. He decided it was best to take her to the back and shave her foot so they didnt have to try to look and then shave it (she doesnt like her feet being touched so they had so cone her and muzzle her, even though she is a very sweet dog they wanted to be safe)

He came back not even 5 min later saying good news its just a burr and we are going to bandage the foot and give you some antibiotics. So they bring her back and we go to pay the bill and it was $153.00 I was shocked! The day before it was free to bring her in to have a tick removed and now $153.00 for a burr to be removed...the break down was $60 to walk in the door, $30 to shave her foot, $30 to bandage it, $22 for the antibiotics, and $8 for the cone. Plus they said to bring her back in 3 days to have the bandage removed (at a cost of course) I asked why we couldnt do it ourselves and they said they needed to look at it and make sure all was ok. Then they realized it was a long weekend and didnt want to leave the bandage on that many days and said "oh I guess you can do it yourself" So we go home with her and her bandaged foot, and three days later when we took the bandage off...we didnt see anything but a shaved foot.

I was talking vets to a lady I just met her and she said her dog got into some cactus plants and have to go to the emergency vet just to have them removed from inside his mouth...one vet she called said it was an automatic $200 charge just for xrays. She said he didnt need any and they said they do them on everyone who walks through the door?????

Sorry if this was a long post once I get typing I dont stop LOL But its reasons like these that people are untrusting of vets. And the whole nutritional thing too ( but that is a whole other post LOL,) And for me its not just vets, I feel the same way about most drs. Its hard to find a good one who actually understands and wants to fix things rather than just keep writing prescriptions to fix the symptoms. (but thats a whole other thing, and forum LOL)
 

sweetpea24

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Originally Posted by kittyxsasha12

Since moving, I can no longer bring my cats to their usual vet, so I tried one around here. I brought them there to figure out a good diet for them (my plan was going to be either all raw or half raw and half dry, but I wanted a vet's opinion). Anyway, when I told the vet about my plan, she immediately starting lecturing me about how raw food is "bad" for cats, something to do with digestion and worms. Then she started pushing Science Diet on me (which I refuse to feed my cats because it has by-products in it), saying it was the healthiest food for cats.

I shall continue my search for a good vet...
Yes keep searching...when I told one of the vets at the clinic where I work that I fed my dog raw, she said the meat isn't natural; meaning that the animal I'm feeding my dog isn't the same animal that is prey in the wild. Her theory was that the animals I'm feeding my dog are stuck in a crowded room and pee and crap all over each other before they are slaughtered. She said "that's the real story" and if I wanted to feed natural then I should feed canned. Well if canned food is the definition of natural, I think I'll go show a wolf a can and see what he does. I'm not against canned food but it's not anymore natural than the meat I'm feeding my dog. Her argument doesn't even make any sense because animals are skinned and cleaned. I'm sure a meat factory isn't as clean as I want to believe it is but prey in the wild isn't pristine either. The day I see a wolf hunt down a can, is the day I start believing what she says. Ask your vet what makes Science Diet good for your cat...you'll get a vague answer. Ask your vet about the ingredients in SD....again a vague answer you will get. Tell me how kibble or canned can be better than fresh food... I am fine with cooked food but it's still fresher than kibble or canned. I do feed kibble and canned to my cats due to the fact they don't like raw or fresh food and also money issues. But if money were no issue, then fresh food it would be. I can understand people's objections to raw; I must admit I get sick sometimes handling it; but nothing can beat fresh, minimally processed food. Dog, cat or human.
 
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