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A study on the impact of protein/carb %s on cat weight loss.

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
The Winn Feline Foundation blogs about a study done on the impact protein and carbs have on kitty weight loss.

http://winnfelinehealth.blogspot.com...t-in-cats.html

Basically, it boils down to....a higher protein, lower carbohydrate diet (wet food or, even better, raw food) means the cats will/can lose weight even if they eat more than a cat on a higher carb, lower protein diet (any kind of kibble, including prescription).
post #2 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy View Post
The Winn Feline Foundation blogs about a study done on the impact protein and carbs have on kitty weight loss.

http://winnfelinehealth.blogspot.com...t-in-cats.html

Basically, it boils down to....a higher protein, lower carbohydrate diet (wet food or, even better, raw food) means the cats will/can lose weight even if they eat more than a cat on a higher carb, lower protein diet (any kind of kibble, including prescription).
Except that the study does not say anything about wet, raw or kibble. There are, as we know, low carb high protein kibbles in the market, as there are high grain wet food in the market.
Dry does not necessarily = high carb. Examples: Wellness Core and Orijen are both low carb, high Protein Kibbles.
The study speaks about the effects of a high protein diet for weight loss and the loss of lean mass in the process - pretty much nothing else. In essence, the use of higher protein diets made the cats not loose as much lean mass, losing only fat, not the case of the control group.
The study is NOT advocating Raw feeding, wet feeding, or anything of sorts.
Just clarifying....
post #3 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinalima View Post
Except that the study does not say anything about wet, raw or kibble. There are, as we know, low carb high protein kibbles in the market, as there are high grain wet food in the market.
Dry does not necessarily = high carb. Examples: Wellness Core and Orijen are both low carb, high Protein Kibbles.
The study speaks about the effects of a high protein diet for weight loss and the loss of lean mass - pretty much nothing else. In essence, the use of higher protein diets made the cats not lose their lean mass, losing only fat, not the case of the control group.
The study is NOT advocating Raw feeding, wet feeding, or anything of sorts.
Just clarifying....
...

after crunching the numbers Core is lower in carbs than it used to be .... basically any dry under 15% IMHO is low carb
post #4 of 18
But kibble can never be as high protein, low carb as raw food or canned food can be.
post #5 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa View Post
But kibble can never be as high protein, low carb as raw food or canned food can be.
never say never .. there are canned foods in the 40-55% protein bracket commonly avail ... so your statement may vary by country

I have seen raw mixes as low as 40 % protein
post #6 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa View Post
But kibble can never be as high protein, low carb as raw food or canned food can be.
What? I suggest you research a little more... "never" is quite a strong word

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
never say never .. there are canned foods in the 40-55% protein bracket commonly avail ... so your statement may vary by country
As there are kibbles:
Wellness Core:
Crude Protein: No Less than 50%
Orijen:
Crude Protein: No Less than 42%
Now, the study was about HIGH PROTEIN, more specifically, feeding 28g of crude protein a day (by the way, it doesn't even touch on the carb subject):
So, for the average cat, 7-10lbs you would feed 62.5g of Wellness Core, out of which 31.25g would be crude protein clearly not only passing the research mark, but being even HIGHER.
Orijen doesn't make by a gram, but does make for a 12 lb or heavier cat. (42% crude protein).
So, the study doesn't say the highest as you can possible go protein level, even because we don't know if that is healthy anyways!
post #7 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinalima View Post
What? I suggest you research a little more... "never" is quite a strong word
I am a bit confused at your suggestion. Because these kibbles you use as examples are not carb free. Extruded kibble always needs to have starches (=carbs), and baked kibble without starch is not available because cats refuse to eat it, according to a pet food company rep whose company made several failed attempts to develop a baked kibble for cats. (even the flint river cat food marketed as baked is extruded first) But I guess maybe I didn't research enough and you can point me to a kibble I missed, even though I even researched cat foods that are not on the European market ?

I will rephrase my post since it seems to be so unclear (English is not my first language, after all);
Kibble always (until they develop a new technology ) needs starches (=carbs) to be made. Raw food or canned food does not need any starches, just ingredients of animal origin will work fine. Thus
Quote:
But kibble can never (until they invent something new ) be as high protein, low carb as raw food or canned food can be.
I did not say anything like "all canned foods" and "all raw foods". Seems like you and sharky did read it that way



Quote:
So, the study doesn't say the highest as you can possible go protein level, even because we don't know if that is healthy anyways!
I agree completely. There is a lot we don't know yet about cat food, so until that time I'll fill in the blanks by looking at what has kept cats thriving for millions of years and basing my percentages on that. That is not possible with kibble (yet )
post #8 of 18


Correct Raw and canned do not need starches and to date no one has made a dry without KUDOS for the differentiation of carbs to starches thou = at times they are not the same Many folks forget that ... At least in this country Most all canned foods have a starch ( whether grain or veggie) or use gum s to keep the food together... Most "complete" predone raws use veggies as there starch... Thank you for clarifying as I remember English is not your primary language and some stuff does get lost in translation both ways I perceive the way nature intended as the live prey model and NO I wont do that Food today is not = to what it was a century ago

Oh by the way YES I have made a starch and carb free kibble that they ate .. but it took for ever and was um to smelly to put it nicely... I could not imagine it on a big scale
post #9 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa View Post
I am a bit confused at your suggestion. Because these kibbles you use as examples are not carb free.
Who said anything about carb free? Now I am confused

As shown on my previous post, the study mentions nothing about carbs again, nothing.
The only thing the study mentions is feeding 28g of crude protein a day, which is considered a high protein diet, and which is achieved by both Wellness Core and Orijen (the latter for 12lbs cats and above). I am naming only a couple, but there could be more in the market...

There are many many many many discussions about wet, dry, raw, etc, etc, etc, etc, but they is not in this specific study. It was clearly not the point of the study....
post #10 of 18
The best (and easiest) food for cats would be whole prey///I would love to do whole prey if I didn't have to pay shipping.

Whether it says it or not dry food is going to be higher in carbs than wet. Nature's Variety Instinct Chicken Formula dry is the lowest carb dry food that I know of and yet many varieties of fancy feast have less carbs than it Carbs = fat cat so the lower the carbs you can go the best wet loss you will get.

For example: NV Instinct dry comes in at 17% carbs....Blue Wilderness canned comes it at 7% carbs. A warning though that I did the math which can be a bad thing I am not good at math even with a calculator...

Many of the premade raws though have veggies/fruits which are unneeded by a true carnivore. Mine don't get anything BUT meat, bones, organs, and fish oil.
post #11 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by furryfriends50 View Post
The best (and easiest) food for cats would be whole prey///I would love to do whole prey if I didn't have to pay shipping.

Whether it says it or not dry food is going to be higher in carbs than wet. Nature's Variety Instinct Chicken Formula dry is the lowest carb dry food that I know of and yet many varieties of fancy feast have less carbs than it Carbs = fat cat so the lower the carbs you can go the best wet loss you will get.

For example: NV Instinct dry comes in at 17% carbs....Blue Wilderness canned comes it at 7% carbs. A warning though that I did the math which can be a bad thing I am not good at math even with a calculator...

Many of the premade raws though have veggies/fruits which are unneeded by a true carnivore. Mine don't get anything BUT meat, bones, organs, and fish oil.
Carbs = 4 kcals to a gram

Fat = 9 kcals to a gram

NOT the SAME

Excess kcals = added fat ..

Excess carbs in a carnivore are often stored in the form of fat

can you link the wilderness canned ??

Brain in math is fuzzy tonight anyone want to give the figure for dry matter ...

you add then subtract then multiple
post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
Brain in math is fuzzy tonight anyone want to give the figure for dry matter ...

you add then subtract then multiple
Not sure if this is what your looking for.
100% - protein, fat, water, fiber, and ash= % carbs

Next change into dry matter basis
100%-moisture=dry matter%

carb%(or protein, fat, etc.) / dry matter%= %dry matter basis

Example:
NV instinct
Guaranteed Analysis (unfortunately GA is not that accurate, but they get us somewhere in the neighborhood)
Crude Protein (min): 50.0%
Crude Fat (min): 22.0%
Crude Fiber (max): 2.8%
Moisture (max): 10.0%

100 - 50 - 22 - 2.8 - 10 =15.2
100 - 10 =90
15.2 / 90 =16.88
So NV dry is somewhere in the neighborhood of 16.88% carbs on a DMB
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
can you link the wilderness canned ??
http://www.bluebuff.com/products/cat...-chicken.shtml

Their Guaranteed Analysis is very rough. I came up with 101% total in the can. So not sure how 7% was figured.
post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
Not sure if this is what your looking for.
100% - protein, fat, water, fiber, and ash= % carbs

Next change into dry matter basis
100%-moisture=dry matter%

carb%(or protein, fat, etc.) / dry matter%= %dry matter basis

Example:
NV instinct
Guaranteed Analysis (unfortunately GA is not that accurate, but they get us somewhere in the neighborhood)
Crude Protein (min): 50.0%
Crude Fat (min): 22.0%
Crude Fiber (max): 2.8%
Moisture (max): 10.0%

100 - 50 - 22 - 2.8 - 10 =15.2
100 - 10 =90
15.2 / 90 =16.88
So NV dry is somewhere in the neighborhood of 16.88% carbs on a DMB

http://www.bluebuff.com/products/cat...-chicken.shtml

Their Guaranteed Analysis is very rough. I came up with 101% total in the can. So not sure how 7% was figured.

I do not think I added in the ash in the Blue Wilderness. It does come out to 101% which is not possible.

I emailed them asking for the real percentages. However both their website and petfooddirect have the same thing = 101. I wonder if the actual cans are right?
post #14 of 18
Guaranteed Analysis are just max and min. And most of the time hardly represents whats exactly in the can or bag. I tried to figure it out by calories and I came up with 12.5% carbs on a DMB. But not sure if thats right. Hopefully they will send you the right info.
post #15 of 18
Is this related to the thread?
Because as mentioned before, all the study mentions is the effects of feeding 28g of protein a day vs feeding 21g a day for weight loss?
post #16 of 18
Thread Starter 
I'm only just getting back to this post, whew, what a week it's been.

It's interesting to see the different perspectives readers took to my original post. The article was all about the impact proteins and carbs have on a feline's weight maintenance (this is referenced in the very first line of the Winn Foundation's blog), so any discussion of carbs versus protein is totally on topic.

The study abstract didn't define the method of protein delivery (i.e. what they fed) but it really doesn't matter. A mouse is 55% or more protein DMB and 3% or less carbs; kibble can be "low-carbed" all day long, but it can't equal a mouse, a chicken leg or a chunk of beef heart in a protein / carb analysis. Therefore, it's an easy conclusion that a raw diet would be both more effective as well as healthier for a cat who needs to lose a few pounds, or even as a manintenance diet for a cat that gains weight easily.

This is why I posted the article - for folks whose kitties need to shed some weight. Obesity and IBD are at nearly epidemic proportions in the US feline population, and feeding "light" (i.e. lower calorie) kibble doesn't correct the problem, because these kibbles still pack crazy amounts of carbs - in comparison to what the cat evolved to eat.

So if you're having trouble getting your furbaby looking sleek and slim, here is additional evidence that a raw or canned diet may be worth looking into.
post #17 of 18
Apparently one will get from this study what one wants to get....

Quote:
In this study, performed at the Universidada Estadual Paulista, Sao Paolo, Brazil, the effects of two diets with different protein levels on weight loss and maintenance was assessed.
Title:
Quote:
Vasconcellos RS, Borges NC, Goncalves KN et al: Protein intake during weight loss influences the energy required for weight loss and maintenance in cats, J Nutr 139:855, 2009.
The main study basis:
Quote:
The control group of obese cats received a diet containing 21 g crude protein on a metabolizable energy basis, and the high-protein group received a diet containing 28 g crude protein.
There is NOTHING about carbs on this study AT ALL.... There is one sentence in the beginning that can be used to misinterpret the study against carbs.... which is a pretty simple sentence, but if you ready the complete abstract you will see that the only thing it is testing is the effects of feeding 28g of proteins against feeding 21g of protein on weight loss and maintenance of lean mass.

The sentence about carbs is this:
Quote:
The effects of various nutrients, such as protein and carbohydrate, on weight loss in cats are controversial.
That it is controversial everybody already knows....
post #18 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy View Post
I'm only just getting back to this post, whew, what a week it's been.

It's interesting to see the different perspectives readers took to my original post. The article was all about the impact proteins and carbs have on a feline's weight maintenance (this is referenced in the very first line of the Winn Foundation's blog), so any discussion of carbs versus protein is totally on topic.

The study abstract didn't define the method of protein delivery (i.e. what they fed) but it really doesn't matter. A mouse is 55% or more protein DMB and 3% or less carbs; kibble can be "low-carbed" all day long, but it can't equal a mouse, a chicken leg or a chunk of beef heart in a protein / carb analysis. Therefore, it's an easy conclusion that a raw diet would be both more effective as well as healthier for a cat who needs to lose a few pounds, or even as a manintenance diet for a cat that gains weight easily.

This is why I posted the article - for folks whose kitties need to shed some weight. Obesity and IBD are at nearly epidemic proportions in the US feline population, and feeding "light" (i.e. lower calorie) kibble doesn't correct the problem, because these kibbles still pack crazy amounts of carbs - in comparison to what the cat evolved to eat.

So if you're having trouble getting your furbaby looking sleek and slim, here is additional evidence that a raw or canned diet may be worth looking into.
Well said
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