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For all the researchers a ???

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
I was with a friend at my vets office going over the friends "babies" issues when my vet floored me by saying that both cats and dogs with NORMAL PH levels are coming in with BOTH struvite and oxalate crystals at once... I tried looking some of this up online and well got what all my reference books have ; ie one or the other and NOT normal ph .... Has anyone heard this ? ... Another vet it town has seen it also .... The "baby" in question was having some urinary issues and her ph was Perfect yet she had oxalate crystals
post #2 of 15
Some of mine have had crystals, but normal pH before. But the thing is - what is "normal"? Because some vets disagree on what normal range is.
post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 
According to vet normal via the lab she uses is 6 normally she says nothing unless over 6.5 .. the baby in ? was a perfect 6
post #4 of 15
My vet thinks 7.0 is within "normal". Where is where I wonder if there is some confusion.

Because if you say "I saw a cat with crystals who had a normal pH" that is very different from "I saw a cat with crystals who had a pH of 6.0".
post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
Urine pH: Although decreasing the amount of magnesium in the diet may have some effect on struvite formation, acidifying the urine has much more. The recommended urinary pH for cats is 6.0-6.5. The FDA will allow statements such as "reduces the urine pH to help maintain urinary tract health" on cat food labels. The claim can only be made if adequate, controlled studies were performed to demonstrate that consumption of the product results in an appropriately acidic urine. Since too much acidification of the urine can result in serious health problems, data to demonstrate safety of the product are reviewed as well. Feeding directions need to state that the product is recommended to be fed alone and should be made available throughout the day. Also, the nutritional adequacy statement on the label must be for adult maintenance only. Since the safety of these products for kittens and pregnant or nursing queens has not been established, the FDA recommends that these products not be used for these life stages.

http://www.peteducation.com/article....+2244&aid=2729

Vet ordered more tests when P and P had a ph of 7
post #6 of 15
Taken from the peteducation link "Calcium oxalate crystals and stones are more likely to occur in acidic urine" Which can loosely mean not always.

Managing Calcium Oxalate Urolithiasis in Cats
Denise A. Elliott, BVSc, PhD, Diplomate ACVIM, Diplomate ACVN
Waltham USA, Inc.
Vernon, CA, USA
"It was initially reported that calcium oxalate stones form in acidic urine, and hence and alkaline urine was suggested to minimize reoccurrence. However, research suggests that calcium oxalate stones can actually form in urine ranging from a pH of 4.8 to 7.4. Therefore, urine pH manipulation alone cannot reliably prevent calcium oxalate reoccurrence." Taken from http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proce...C2003&PID=3667

"While the influence of urinary pH is well studied, urinary pH appears to have less of a direct effect on solubility of calcium oxalate" http://ms.yccd.edu/vet01/vett53a/vet...orts/final.htm

"A more alkaline urine was thought to discourage calcium oxalate formation in the urinary tract. Growing but somewhat controversial evidence indicates this is not the case." http://www.californiaanimal.org/sub....kidney_urolith

Other random sources claiming calcium oxalate in alkaline urine: http://www.texascollaborative.org/sp...rystals.htm#14
http://www.med.illinois.edu/depts_pr...1/crystals.htm http://www.tetonnm.com/pics/MESSampl...93441-10-5.pdf

"Struvite crystals usually appear as colorless, prism-like crystals or "coffin lids" or old-fashioned double-edged razor blades (lower frame). Often seen in urine from clinically normal individuals. Found in urine of any pH, although their formation is favored in alkaline urine." http://www.texascollaborative.org/sp...rystals.htm#14 http://www.diaglab.vet.cornell.edu/c...d/struvite.htm

"Struvite crystals are not unusual in normal urine" http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body...er_stones.html

"While calcium oxalate crystals can form in any pH., struvite crystals tend to form most commonly in the higher pH ranges of seven and greater." http://www.whitneysvet.com/crystalluria.html

http://www.felinefuture.com/?p=574

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proce...8608&O=Generic (contains a small amount of struvite chemistry)
http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB...00/PR00125.htm

Sorry for posting a fair amount of links. While most of these sources can be questioned. They seem to somewhat support your recent experience. And may be worth taking into consideration. This doesn't seem like its going to make things any easier. It may be that while ph plays a part, we may need to focus on minerals and moisture much more. Though acidic ph can dissolve struvites. But there is a reason why a fair amount of people say acidic=calcium oxalate and alkaline=struvites. Mainly because that's what normally happens in urine. Unfortunately some of the animals that are coming in, your vets office, seem like they are falling under the abnormal group. Meaning they are unlucky and all conditions are met for both crystals. Thoughts?
post #7 of 15
Thread Starter 
Chris

You KNOW that I do not mind links...

This to me is a puzzler since all these yrs the info stated one but not both at the same time...ie struvites growing in a certain ph , nothing in a normal , and oxalate in a different ph...

Yes, I have always focused on minerals and moisture vs just ph ....

Going bottom to top on the links .... some of it is what I have researched in the past but it is very good to refresh..As I had forgotten the vast range oxalates can be found in .

I can tell this .... the boys Pj and Punky both have weird PH s and NO crystals which surprised all.. they had minor bacteria involvement .. Of course I monitor mineral levels ... while "baby" has oxalates at a perfect 6 this is some improvement thru diet I suspect as she had a weird ph and crystals( prior vet DID NOTHING).Loads of bacteria in this one but she is also nearly para pelagic ..

My thoughts we need foods aiming lower for urine ph as many seem to be hitting the "normal" for struvite formation...
post #8 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
prior vet DID NOTHING
What a load of cat poo

I don't know what else to say since this is news to me. I have always had the mindset as others that its usually one or the other. Too bad cat nutrition is not an exact science. It would make things so much easier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
My thoughts we need foods aiming lower for urine ph as many seem to be hitting the "normal" for struvite formation...
Are their any foods out there that are currently better than most? Meaning for ph
post #9 of 15
Last time they found struvite crystals in Muddy, his PH was 6.3. The specialists attribute it to stress. He's my needless worrier.
post #10 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
What a load of cat poo

I don't know what else to say since this is news to me. I have always had the mindset as others that its usually one or the other. Too bad cat nutrition is not an exact science. It would make things so much easier.


Are their any foods out there that are currently better than most? Meaning for ph
The simple answer to PH yes ... thou most cat food PHs are lower or higher than the urine PH of the cat due to metabolism
post #11 of 15
Thread Starter 
Still coming up with nothing written on the exact topic... thou a quick talk with a few more vets yeilded the same results...
post #12 of 15
Reaction/reduction of calcium oxalate

CaC2O4(calcium oxalate) --->H2O<---Ca 2+(aq)(calcium) + C2O4 2-(aq)(Oxalate, charged form of oxalic acid)

"Oxalic acid has the ability to form a strong bond with various minerals, such as sodium, potassium, magnesium, and calcium. When this occurs, the compounds formed are usually referred to as oxalate salts. Thus, “oxalate” usually refers to a salt of oxalic acid, one of which is calcium oxalate." http://www.vulvarpainfoundation.org/vpfoxalate.htm

"Oxalic acid can also be present in the body due to the consumption of another toxin, ethylene glycol (generally known as automobile antifreeze), because over time, the body metabolizes ethylene glycol partially into oxalic acid. Estimated fatal dose is 5 to 15 grams.

Bodily oxalic acid may also be synthesized via the metabolism of either glyoxylic acid or unused ascorbic acid (vitamin C)," http://www.dewsworld.com/FInDefenseofOxalicAcid.html

"Oxalic acid is a major end product of ascorbic acid
oxidation, and it has the potential to crystallize as calcium
oxalate in the urinary space. An oral dose of 500 mg ascorbic
acid modestly increases urinary oxalic acid excretion and
could theoretically increase the risk of stone formation in
susceptible people" http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/oncolo...alAcidExcr.pdf

"There is some preliminary evidence that the administration of probiotics can affect oxalic acid excretion rates[7] (and presumably oxalic acid levels as well.)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalate#cite_note-6 I know not the greatest source but the page linked to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16105057

This has some interesting info about Calcium Oxalate http://www.chem.uwec.edu/Chem115_F00...su/project.htm

Oxalic acid can be consumed through plant material. But most of the time its in very small amounts. Ph still plays a part. This is not easy to predict and is only a rough idea of what has to happen. There most likely are some more factors but its late for me and this is what I could quickly find. I am not sure if this helps at all. This may just confuse the heck out of us.
post #13 of 15
Thread Starter 
Lol we are getting quite the education... maybe I do need to go to vet school ...

though this is labelled canine it was sent by a friend on another site who has AWESOME researching ability online ...

http://www.lbah.com/canine/urolithiasis.htm WARNING there are some graphic images
post #14 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
Lol we are getting quite the education... maybe I do need to go to vet school ...

though this is labelled canine it was sent by a friend on another site who has AWESOME researching ability online ...

http://www.lbah.com/canine/urolithiasis.htm WARNING there are some graphic images
Good link. It has a basic outline of everything that I have read regarding crystals. We could look at struvites too. And see if there is a small thing that may tie them both together. But I think it will just show that if we can decrease the crystal forming conditions in urine, then crystals might not form as quickly. I think they form no matter what. But the concentration of urine, such as minerals and amount of urine, may help speed up the crystal process. Unfortunately I don't think I answered your original question. Just showed some factors that help crystal formation. It must be an uncommon thing since not much is written about it in the pet world.

Does anyone else have a theory on why this takes place?
post #15 of 15
Thread Starter 
My vet had one ... DIET and Diagnostics ...

My thought is the move to MORE acidic urine making foods in animals who did not need them.... the other side of me says genetics with better diagnostics

LOL ... I am finding that my ?? will likely take lots of time and looking under lots of rocks ///

I am sure some have ideas but just are worried about posting... I would love other theory s and links
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