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High School Senior Suspended over Pocketknife - Page 3

post #61 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
They don't have to prove he was carrying it. That was merely the report that sent them looking for it. In fact, they don't even have to prove the boy owned it...only that he was in possession of it.

Just out of curiosity...a flare gun isn't a weapon, nor (by modern law) is the derringer that was used to assassinate Abraham Lincoln. Would you let children take them to school?

Since the knife he had was part of an emegency kit, I'm surprised he didn't have a flare gun. Or flares of some sort.
post #62 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post

Just out of curiosity...a flare gun isn't a weapon, nor (by modern law) is the derringer that was used to assassinate Abraham Lincoln. Would you let children take them to school?
Not take them to school, but if they have them put away in their car during class time- I wouldn't have a problem with that. People like to collect things, weather it be ancient weapons or pokemon cards. I know a good friend of mine collected japanese samurai swords while we were in high school and surely he must have had a few in his car while he was at school...The difference is, people buy weapons with a permit with no other intention but to use them as weapons in self defense, that is why they are more dangerous...
post #63 of 73
Ok, so now that we've established that dangerous items that aren't necessarily classified as weapons are just fine on school property, comes the second half of the question.

What if the cars in which those flare guns or derringers were located belonged to members of the Gangsta Disciples, or perhaps the 8-Ball Posse? Would you want your children attending a school where such items are the turn of a car key away?
post #64 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Ok, so now that we've established that dangerous items that aren't necessarily classified as weapons are just fine on school property, comes the second half of the question.

What if the cars in which those flare guns or derringers were located belonged to members of the Gangsta Disciples, or perhaps the 8-Ball Posse? Would you want your children attending a school where such items are the turn of a car key away?
Oh, come on we all know the kind of weapons gangs use and they are in no way unconventional- at the most they'd be using a stolen handgun which IS illegal and they would be caught and put in jail for that...
post #65 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Oh, come on we all know the kind of weapons gangs use and they are in no way unconventional- at the most they'd be using a stolen handgun which IS illegal and they would be caught and put in jail for that...
Why are you avoiding the question? Oh, BTW, stolen handguns are not illegal. It's only illegal to do the stealing, or to knowingly be in possession of a stolen handgun.

Besides, it's legal for convicted felons to have cap n' ball pistols...they're not weapons.
post #66 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Why are you avoiding the question? Oh, BTW, stolen handguns are not illegal. It's only illegal to do the stealing, or to knowingly be in possession of a stolen handgun.

Besides, it's legal for convicted felons to have cap n' ball pistols...they're not weapons.
Because I don't think it's a fair question I mean, being a member of a gang is illegal in itself so surely they can be suspended just for that!! And what about kids who know neck breaking moves by learning martial arts, would I feel comfortable with them around? of course not but what can you do, sometimes you can't avoid danger.
And, I don't think a stolen handgun can ever be legal to have because it's impossible to get a permit for a stolen gun.
post #67 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Because I don't think it's a fair question I mean, being a member of a gang is illegal in itself so surely they can be suspended just for that!! And what about kids who know neck breaking moves by learning martial arts, would I feel comfortable with them around? of course not but what can you do, sometimes you can't avoid danger.
And, I don't think a stolen handgun can ever be legal to have because it's impossible to get a permit for a stolen gun.
It's a very fair question. And it's not illegal to be in a gang. It is illegal for gangs to engage in criminal activities, but being in the gang is not illegal. As for the handgun, you seem to have missed what I said. It's not legal to have, it's the having that's illegal. The gun is NOT illegal.

So, let's stick with the knife. How do you feel about children you know being in school with the Vice Lords who all have 2" knives in their cars just outside in the parking lot?
post #68 of 73
There is such a thing as intent. And the background of the student matters in determining intent. Just saying some kid is a gang member wouldn't be the whole story. How do the teachers know he is a gang member? Has he been in trouble before? Is he violent? Does he throw threats around?

So yes, a kid that behaves as described above could easily be determined to have violent intent with the weapon found in his car. As opposed to a kid who has never been in trouble. Is active in many groups known for control and restraint. A kid with aspirations to go to West Point. Possibly respectful to adults and authority figures. And with the knife tucked into a valid emergency kit given to him by a police chief. Not just floating around his car by itself.
post #69 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telynn View Post
There is such a thing as intent. And the background of the student matters in determining intent. Just saying some kid is a gang member wouldn't be the whole story. How do the teachers know he is a gang member? Has he been in trouble before? Is he violent? Does he throw threats around?
Laws are not applied by intent, so why should the rules of a school be any different. No court in the land can judge intent, only the actions that stem from them. You're not suggesting that we apply rules using a class system, are you?

Quote:
So yes, a kid that behaves as described above could easily be determined to have violent intent with the weapon found in his car. As opposed to a kid who has never been in trouble. Is active in many groups known for control and restraint. A kid with aspirations to go to West Point. Possibly respectful to adults and authority figures. And with the knife tucked into a valid emergency kit given to him by a police chief. Not just floating around his car by itself.
Except for the "emergency kit", you just perfectly described little Ricky Thompson the Eagle Scout, right up until he fell in with the wrong crowd. Then he murdered 2 people in Austin just over a month ago.

http://www.kxan.com/dpp/mobile/Murde...as_Eagle_Scout

And I honestly don't think I would put a great deal of stock into what the police chief grandfather has to say. He apparently either doesn't know about, or thinks his grandson is above the article of military law that says that military personnel will not transport ANY military armaments in any POV. To do so will pull down a court martial in very short order.
Quote:
“He’s lucky that he didn’t have a bayonet in the car. He’s a National Guardsman for God’s sake.”
post #70 of 73
Whether hoodlum or Eagle Scout, it's fair to say that if students were, say, greeted by a huge billboard outlining every detail regarding the legality of potential weapons, the searches that may be undertaken to confiscate them, etc., then I don't think anyone has as much of a beef with this issue. Maybe every student DOES have a copy of all of the school policies, given to them on day one. I just haven't read anything to that effect.

One can say "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but assuming he wasn't aware of the full extent of the policy, then in my opinion, what went down with this kid was unreasonable, given the context. Should he have checked the school's policies before deciding to carry a 2-inch pocket knife in his car? Apparently. But the reality is that most people's sensibilities still haven't caught up with administrative paranoia when it comes to post-9/11 America. Perhaps somewhat perversely, part of me hopes that it never does.

We've been reduced to playing word games in trying to define common sense. A sense of reason has been replaced with "preemptive justice", in an attempt to eliminate the possibility of anything bad ever happening again. As far as I'm concerned, the psychological damage - the knowledge that freedom isn't really all that free, or what's seemingly right isn't as right as you thought it was - may harm this country in the long run more than the "preventive maintenance" being undertaken by law/policy makers.

IMHO.
post #71 of 73
Intent does play a part in deciding things. The difference between murder one, manslaughter and reckless homicide (or whatever it is called when you take a life while being really careless). Also with the hate crime laws, intent is everything. Yes, a school principal can look at two students and make the call that one situation was an inadvertant and innocent accident (not realizing that a small knife in an emergency kit locked in your car was against school rules) and that another sitation was someone with violent intent. They just don't want to anymore so they created this whole 'zero tolerance' thing and now they don't have to take any heat for their decisions. But as I said before, then a trained monkey could do their job. A girl caught with Midol is held to the same punishment as someone caught with meth. One size fits all punishments.
post #72 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telynn View Post
Intent does play a part in deciding things. The difference between murder one, manslaughter and reckless homicide (or whatever it is called when you take a life while being really careless). Also with the hate crime laws, intent is everything. Yes, a school principal can look at two students and make the call that one situation was an inadvertant and innocent accident (not realizing that a small knife in an emergency kit locked in your car was against school rules) and that another sitation was someone with violent intent. They just don't want to anymore so they created this whole 'zero tolerance' thing and now they don't have to take any heat for their decisions. But as I said before, then a trained monkey could do their job. A girl caught with Midol is held to the same punishment as someone caught with meth. One size fits all punishments.
I agree, when it comes to judging actions on past events, such as, after the commission of a crime.

Now, an Eagle scout and a Gangsta Disciple both have a 2" pocketknife in their glovebox. What is the intent of each one?
post #73 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keycube View Post
Whether hoodlum or Eagle Scout, it's fair to say that if students were, say, greeted by a huge billboard outlining every detail regarding the legality of potential weapons, the searches that may be undertaken to confiscate them, etc., then I don't think anyone has as much of a beef with this issue. Maybe every student DOES have a copy of all of the school policies, given to them on day one. I just haven't read anything to that effect.

One can say "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but assuming he wasn't aware of the full extent of the policy, then in my opinion, what went down with this kid was unreasonable, given the context. Should he have checked the school's policies before deciding to carry a 2-inch pocket knife in his car? Apparently. But the reality is that most people's sensibilities still haven't caught up with administrative paranoia when it comes to post-9/11 America. Perhaps somewhat perversely, part of me hopes that it never does.

We've been reduced to playing word games in trying to define common sense. A sense of reason has been replaced with "preemptive justice", in an attempt to eliminate the possibility of anything bad ever happening again. As far as I'm concerned, the psychological damage - the knowledge that freedom isn't really all that free, or what's seemingly right isn't as right as you thought it was - may harm this country in the long run more than the "preventive maintenance" being undertaken by law/policy makers.

IMHO.
Very well said! Fear is as powerful a tool to extremists as violence itself, and as long as people are afraid, they have the upper hand.

My whole point is questioning the absolute conviction that some people have that one side is right and the other wrong, in an issue with so many shades of gray. Like I said before, I'm quite on the fence with this one myself.

My "car kit" involves a .38 revolver as well, which is completely legal in Kentucky...except on school or posted property. I just don't park at schools.
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