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change in food, change in poo.

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
OK - I hope this isn't a silly question, but if I have tipped the percentage balance of the wet/dry I am feeding the cats more towards wet, would that mean they may produce less poop? Seems to me that since I have been doing this, there is less fecal waste in the litter pans. Or maybe I am hallucinating.
post #2 of 20
IMO, yes, as I saw the same things in my own cats.
post #3 of 20
no .. the worst wet food is = in digestabilty to the best no grain dry.. so you are far from hallucinating
post #4 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
no .. the worst wet food is = in digestabilty to the best no grain dry.. so you are far from hallucinating
Sharky, and why would that be? The worst wet food would have grains, including corn, soy, etc, allergens, chemicals, nasty unnamed meat by-products, fillers, and the list goes on and on and on... I am sorry but with all due respect, I can not see the validity of this statement when you are comparing a food like this with Orijen, for example, that contains none of these nasties.

I have seen you say quite a few times that Dry food = wet food - water...

So I am very confused here... Can you please explain?
Thanks!
post #5 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinalima View Post
Sharky, and why would that be? The worst wet food would have grains, including corn, soy, etc, allergens, chemicals, nasty unnamed meat by-products, fillers, and the list goes on and on and on... I am sorry but with all due respect, I can not see the validity of this statement when you are comparing a food like this with Orijen, for example, that contains none of these nasties.

I have seen you say quite a few times that Dry food = wet food - water...

So I am very confused here... Can you please explain?
Thanks!
wet food by nature is = in moisture or very close ( in many cases higher ) to natural prey ... Meat by product in wet is = to mainly organs and things you and I would not eat but minimal bone ( ie heads ft etc ) that are found in dry meals ...

Most even low quality wet foods = about 15-20% carbs( some formulas up to 25% carbs) if they have grain.. Even with grain most have water and meats of some sort for the first 5-6 ingredients and in most formulas the first 6-9 ingredients make up 90% of the food ( ie the lowest meat digestion is about 80%... the highest starch or grain is 85% and that is rice ... potato is far lower ...

It boils down to meat and organs with moisture = highly digestible...

Ex

chicken broth , chicken , chicken liver( a by product) , chicken gizzards ( another by product ) rice is a roughly 88% digestibility formula

meat broth , meat by product, chicken , chicken by product,lamb , plasma would be within a % in digestibility


Most No grain dry s have lower overall digestibility than some mid line premiums with one grain... WHY??? because they will use the most digestible meat (chicken ) and the most digestible grain ( rice )... vs typical no grain using high level potato ( very starchy and not great for digestibility

Of course no grain wets take the cake for digestibility ... being the most digestible

Filler the only filler IMHO is cellulose as it is 100% NOT digestible ... all other foods to varying degrees digest thus are not fillers

If you have more ???s pm me
post #6 of 20
if you search "meat by-products", you are not going to find organs... you are going to find quite a bit more than that....
You are going to find information on rendering facilities, and stuff that if you really read on you will have a hard time feeding your pet that, at least I am. I do have a hard time feeding my pet euthanized cats and dogs, for one. That stuff makes me sick. I am not talking about chicken liver... I am talking about Meat by-products.

Also, the formula you described is much better than lets say... 9 Lives (below)? I am sorry but I can't think of all this junk being more easily digestible than Orijen. Nope. I see Bugsy dying on this diet

Water sufficient for processing, meat by-products, fish, soy protein concentrate, salmon, wheat flour, modified starch, crab, soybean oil, steamed bone meal, titanium dioxide, guar gum, animal digest, choline chloride, sodium tripolyphosphate, salt, vitamins (vitamin E supplement, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfite complex, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), taurine, iron oxide, red 3, minerals (ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite).
post #7 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinalima View Post
if you search "meat by-products", you are not going to find organs... you are going to find quite a bit more than that....
You are going to find information on rendering facilities, and stuff that if you really read on you will have a hard time feeding your pet that, at least I am. I do have a hard time feeding my pet euthanized cats and dogs, for one. That stuff makes me sick. I am not talking about chicken liver... I am talking about Meat by-products.

Also, the formula you described is much better than lets say... 9 Lives (below)? I am sorry but I can't think of all this junk being more easily digestible than Orijen. Nope. I see Bugsy dying on this diet

Water sufficient for processing, meat by-products, fish, soy protein concentrate, salmon, wheat flour, modified starch, crab, soybean oil, steamed bone meal, titanium dioxide, guar gum, animal digest, choline chloride, sodium tripolyphosphate, salt, vitamins (vitamin E supplement, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfite complex, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), taurine, iron oxide, red 3, minerals (ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite).
Ugh! See. I wouldn't feed my boys this! Meow Mix cups are are as "bad" as I go. I think they do better on higher quality food as we do better if we don't live on a diet of baloney sandwiches and potato chips.
post #8 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinalima View Post
if you search "meat by-products", you are not going to find organs... you are going to find quite a bit more than that....
You are going to find information on rendering facilities, and stuff that if you really read on you will have a hard time feeding your pet that, at least I am. I do have a hard time feeding my pet euthanized cats and dogs, for one. That stuff makes me sick. I am not talking about chicken liver... I am talking about Meat by-products.

Also, the formula you described is much better than lets say... 9 Lives (below)? I am sorry but I can't think of all this junk being more easily digestible than Orijen. Nope. I see Bugsy dying on this diet

Water sufficient for processing, meat by-products, fish, soy protein concentrate, salmon, wheat flour, modified starch, crab, soybean oil, steamed bone meal, titanium dioxide, guar gum, animal digest, choline chloride, sodium tripolyphosphate, salt, vitamins (vitamin E supplement, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfite complex, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), taurine, iron oxide, red 3, minerals (ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite).
Cats eat meat by-products all the time in the wild. just to say... When I feed my cats whole prey it is almost all "By-Products". By-products are still meat and useful to the cat. Whether it be from a cow, pig, goat, chicken, turkey, buffalo, rabbit, deer, lamb, etc it is still meat. It is still food made for a carnivore.

Plain fact is that dry food = dehydrating. Wet food isn't therefore it is already more digestable. Normally a cat wouldn't drink a cup or so of water a day to make up for the dry food. So even the best dry food (which IMO there is not such thing as a good dry) is overly processed thus in a completly unnatural form. Wet food is less processed so more of the wet can be used in the cats body.

Dry also has way to many carbs. Even EVO and Orijen are too high in carbs for an obligate carnivore. Wet food is much lower carbs so more digestable.
post #9 of 20
Here you go - here is your Meat by-product in the Pet Food Industry - remember, we are NOT in the wild.

Watch this, and then we talk about meat by-products in your cat food again... and what might be healthier/easily digestible for a cat. We are not talking about killing preys here - we are talking about "meat by-products" in the pet food industry. So, I will feed Orijen happily any day, Knowing that it is healthier for them than this junk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9DTz...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkyBv...layer_embedded

And something else: Orijen is 20% max Carbs - not too high IMO, My cats are great drinkers and drink more than the 5oz that is the advisable amount, which you can help to achieve with water fountains.
You can compare apples to apples, and say a high quality wet is better than a high quality dry, with comparable ingredients, and that would be acceptable... But to say that the worst wet is more easily digested than the best dry... hum.... I do have a problem with that.
post #10 of 20
Just one more thing to add: In the pet industry, by-products, unless named, do not necessarily equal organs, like in the wild would... I know most of you already know, but for what I can see, some don't...
"Meat by-products" is a naaaaasssstttyyyy version of that - feel free do do your own research, watch those videos above, and get to know what it really means... Animal digest... another bad bad one...
I do feed organs, so clearly, I have nothing against them... But I feed ORGANS, and not "Meat by-products". How are the organs labeled on the food I feed? Simple - by it's name: "lamb liver" "lamb heart" "lamb tripe" "venison heart" "venison tripe", "venison kidney", and so on and so forth, depending on the flavor... I am all for it...
But the terminology "Meat By-Product" , "meat by-product meal", and "animal digest" ... it is just about the sickest, grossest, nastiest, stuff you can ever think of...
Anyways... check it out for yourself, and you just might make your pets life a little healthier...
post #11 of 20
I realize that yes meat by-products are questionable but still have to say that a wet food with meat by-products is more digestible than the top dry food. This isn’t an argument over ingredients but digestibility.

It is about the chemical makeup of the wet food not the formula used in making up the wet food. Chemically, wet food has H20 (Hydrogen + Oxygen). Natural prey for cats has close to the same amount of H20. Therefore since it is closer to the same makeup it is more easily digested no matter what the ingredients. It is meat, it has the same amount of H20, and thus is closer to the same digestibility as a mouse. No cats have little food dehydrators in the wild…they do not eat food that has 10% or less moisture. So dry is the most unnatural thus naturally it is less digestible.

I am not at all concerned about what I am feeding my cats. They do get “meat by-products†because I feed all raw. Some days they get whole prey and some days they get frankenprey. Raw is digested much more efficiently than even wet food. Raw fed cats have little waste as they can utilize the meat. Cats fed wet food produce much less waste than those on dry as wet is has a greater rate of digestibility.

Wet food is in a more natural state so it is more digestible.

Dry food is in an unnatural state so it is less digestible. It may be have the same amount of ingrediants utilized however it leaves the cat chronically dehydrated.

Raw is in the most natural state so it is the most digestible.

100% potato chips are less digestible than a normal none dehydrated potatoe.

So, I believe that the more natural the food is the more digestable it is. Cats are obligate carnivores and are made to eat mice, rats, quail, etc. Those prey animals have a high water content...wet food has a high water content. I don't want to have an arguement over meat by-products...those are not what is in question.

@AddieBee: I sure noticed a differance with amount of stools with the increase of canned food and decreased dry food. Even a bigger differance once I started to feed raw
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by furryfriends50 View Post
I realize that yes meat by-products are questionable but still have to say that a wet food with meat by-products is more digestible than the top dry food. This isn’t an argument over ingredients but digestibility.

It is about the chemical makeup of the wet food not the formula used in making up the wet food. Chemically, wet food has H20 (Hydrogen + Oxygen). Natural prey for cats has close to the same amount of H20. Therefore since it is closer to the same makeup it is more easily digested no matter what the ingredients. It is meat, it has the same amount of H20, and thus is closer to the same digestibility as a mouse. No cats have little food dehydrators in the wild…they do not eat food that has 10% or less moisture. So dry is the most unnatural thus naturally it is less digestible.

I am not at all concerned about what I am feeding my cats. They do get “meat by-products” because I feed all raw. Some days they get whole prey and some days they get frankenprey. Raw is digested much more efficiently than even wet food. Raw fed cats have little waste as they can utilize the meat. Cats fed wet food produce much less waste than those on dry as wet is has a greater rate of digestibility.

Wet food is in a more natural state so it is more digestible.

Dry food is in an unnatural state so it is less digestible. It may be have the same amount of ingrediants utilized however it leaves the cat chronically dehydrated.

Raw is in the most natural state so it is the most digestible.

100% potato chips are less digestible than a normal none dehydrated potatoe.

So, I believe that the more natural the food is the more digestable it is. Cats are obligate carnivores and are made to eat mice, rats, quail, etc. Those prey animals have a high water content...wet food has a high water content. I don't want to have an arguement over meat by-products...those are not what is in question.

@AddieBee: I sure noticed a differance with amount of stools with the increase of canned food and decreased dry food. Even a bigger differance once I started to feed raw
Ok - you are feeding raw - there is nothing from what I am taking about here that applies to you, so....
As i said.... "Meat by-products" in the PET FOOD INDUSTRY (NOT as in feeding RAW) does NOT necessarily equal organs. This is for the people that are feeding in CANS, or DRY food, STORE BOUGHT - not for the RAW feeders, got it? As I said quite a few times before, the TERMINOLOGY used for meat by-products is not the clean organs fed on raw diet. No matter how much you try to make it be on a perfect world - it isn't. Research 4-D meat, Animal Digest and meat by-product.
By the way, no kidding water is Hydrogen + Oxygen, really?? So... what does that have do to with this whole thing?
There is no question here about the water content... It doesn't make any better having all this junk in the food my pet eats. So... You add water to poison, and it makes it better??? How so? It makes it more digestible? Psss...

This is not a discussion about what is better - raw, or dry - no question raw is going to be better. Or even wet or dry, when the ingredients are on the same quality level - yes, of course wet is going to be better. But I will question a statement that says that the worst wet is more easily digestible, or better than than the best dry. That I will question... Because I know that can not be. I know that junk plus water makes no less of junk... I know I have a kitty with IBD at home, that if I fed a diet like that, he would be dead... and yes, I have fed him junk food with very bad consequences... (no chicken in it). So I Know in my heart that this is not more easily digestible than a quality, clean formula food. Period.
post #13 of 20
I did some extra research on meat by products and yeilded some suprising things ... I discussed this at length with my vet ( who has a ms in companion animal nutrition and she and I went thru the affco book and outside of the yes meat by products could be cat , dog , horse( lots of folks actually eat these) canned by products are IMHO mainly organs as they are NOT in a meal form which allows for easy bone , beak , head , ft inclusion ..

NO MEAT is clean in reality ... do some study on the meat industry ... unless you know the rancher( who would also be willing to butcher on site either himself or a traveling butcher), test the land and research what it has been used for clean is a misnomer...

IMHO yes using quality foods is best but if the wet a cat prefers is by product filled yet HAS NO potato , peas or grain IMHO it is better than any dry avail and many wets avail... By products are a natural thing a cat will eat ( some like heads and ft I have yet to personally meet any of them ) .. I have yet to see a cat eat a potato , pea or corn in the garder...

thru a test in my own house this is proven ... and yes I have LOTS of issues under my roof ... But that is a completely new thread that will post when my complete data is compiled

4 d is a long ago issue ie moslty before you and I were born ... but today nearly EVERY meat for pet food is treated with chemicals
post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
I did some extra research on meat by products and yeilded some suprising things ... I discussed this at length with my vet ( who has a ms in companion animal nutrition and she and I went thru the affco book and outside of the yes meat by products could be cat , dog , horse( lots of folks actually eat these) canned by products are IMHO mainly organs as they are NOT in a meal form which allows for easy bone , beak , head , ft inclusion ..

NO MEAT is clean in reality ... do some study on the meat industry ... unless you know the rancher( who would also be willing to butcher on site either himself or a traveling butcher), test the land and research what it has been used for clean is a misnomer...

IMHO yes using quality foods is best but if the wet a cat prefers is by product filled yet HAS NO potato , peas or grain IMHO it is better than any dry avail and many wets avail... By products are a natural thing a cat will eat ( some like heads and ft I have yet to personally meet any of them ) .. I have yet to see a cat eat a potato , pea or corn in the garder...

thru a test in my own house this is proven ... and yes I have LOTS of issues under my roof ... But that is a completely new thread that will post when my complete data is compiled

4 d is a long ago issue ie moslty before you and I were born ... but today nearly EVERY meat for pet food is treated with chemicals
Thanks Sharky - what confused me was your very broad and strong statement.... The worst canned cat food WILL have many many many things a cat will never eat in a garden . In fact, all that junk inside of the 9-Lives can I pasted the ingrediets - that stuff doesn't show up in a garden, you know?
I do think that apples need to be compered with a apples, and oranges, with oranges, or with the most tangerines.
Yes, every meat will be dirty to some point, but if you can avoid sick animals in various stages of decomposition... puss...decay... That would be nice... Our meat might not be as clean as one would like - as you say "unless you know the butcher"... but our meat is USDA inspected, and we know as long as it is, it is not going to make us sick (this is very very very rare when it happens). We can not say the same for meat by-product, and animal digest, and I DO have a problem with that - why, because these kitties here, are my kiddos, and they deserve to be protected too, and it it MY RESPONSIBILITY to do so.
post #15 of 20
Thread Starter 
Hey - my boys are just happy that I am popping open more cans. Prowler in particular is asking me all the time for wet food! meow... row... meow.... rrrr...

Prowler - what do you want?r

Rrreow..

Do you want food? MEEEOOOOWWWWW!!! lol!!!!!
post #16 of 20
Mine too... I do wish I could say the same for Lucky... she will not eat any... at all! Nada!
post #17 of 20
YIPPY he is asking....

As for Lucky maybe it is just time... or Mommy needs to try what sharky call junk " has by products but no grains".. that worked for all three in my house who didnt do wet
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
YIPPY he is asking....

As for Lucky maybe it is just time... or Mommy needs to try what sharky call junk " has by products but no grains".. that worked for all three in my house who didnt do wet
I tried it ALL with Lucky - even FF, Tuna, raw, boiled chicken, you name it, just to get her used to something different, then to transition her to something "better", but she won't eat anything, nothing, at all!
post #19 of 20
On topic just not the OP ... Zoey has taken 5 yrs nearly .... she will know eat 1 Tbl a day
post #20 of 20
With switching Mikey I literally tried everything imaginable. Then the day I tried a can of Fancy Feast Gourmet Chicken...He went crazy over it. No other canned food would he even sniff or look at but he loved that. Probably spent $100 to find a wet food Mr. Pickypants would try
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