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Shroud of Turin reproduced using medieval methods

post #1 of 28
10/5/09 at 3:35pm
Thread Starter 
Yet another nail in the coffin of one more religious hoax

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssT...52244120091005
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post #2 of 28
10/5/09 at 3:42pm
I've always thought that the obsession over the Shroud of Turin and relics in general was silly. If you believe, then you believe whether that's the exact thing that was there or not. If you don't believe, then of course you figure it's just a tablecloth (or whatever). I mean I can see why it's worth investigating objects that contain or support information that has a bearing on the historical/archaeological facts, but St. Whoever's Sacred Toenail Clippings? Puh-leeeze.
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post #3 of 28
10/5/09 at 6:25pm
I always love seeing things like this.


But I thought they already debunked the Shroud of Turin a while back?
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post #4 of 28
10/5/09 at 6:30pm
Just because one piece is found to not be real, doesn't make the rest of what the Bible says fake. Personally, I never really believed it was the image of Jesus in the first place.

No one can see God's face, so why would the Shroud be real?
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post #5 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Yet another nail in the coffin of one more religious hoax

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssT...52244120091005
I chuckled over this little snippet in the article you linked.

Quote:
Garlaschelli received funding for his work by an Italian association of atheists and agnostics but said it had no effect on his results
I feel sorry for atheists and agnostics, they try so hard to prove Jesus did not exist and that Jesus is not the Son of God. They can't because He did and He is.

I notice they did not mention anything about the plant fibers on the shroud.

It does not matter in the least if the Shroud is real, it has no bearing on anything but it sure does make the atheists and agnostics happy. How sad for them.
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post #6 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:12pm
I try make it a point to never discuss religion or politics in depth...

It's a no-win argument that makes nice people hate each other.


But I believe that there are very few accurate and true accounts in the bible itself.
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post #7 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:13pm
That's because you are not a believer, if you were you would know that the Bible is God's divine word.
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post #8 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I chuckled over this little snippet in the article you linked.



I feel sorry for atheists and agnostics, they try so hard to prove Jesus did not exist and that Jesus is not the Son of God. They can't because He did and He is.

I notice they did not mention anything about the plant fibers on the shroud.

It does not matter in the least if the Shroud is real, it has no bearing on anything but it sure does make the atheists and agnostics happy. How sad for them.
Actually, if you understood agnostism, you'd realize they want proof either way, and would be happy with either. And as there is absolutely no proof, at all, that any of what you say is true, then they are still left seeking proof.

As for plant fibers, seeing as the location (and therefore, it's treatment) of the "shroud" was unknown for several hundred years, supposedly...what would they signify? That it was hidden in a haystack?
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post #9 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Just because one piece is found to not be real, doesn't make the rest of what the Bible says fake. Personally, I never really believed it was the image of Jesus in the first place.

No one can see God's face, so why would the Shroud be real?
Oh? But person's I shant name have presented the existence of that very "shroud" as proof, on this very forum.

So, now what?
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post #10 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Actually, if you understood agnostism, you'd realize they want proof either way, and would be happy with either. And as there is absolutely no proof, at all, that any of what you say is true, then they are still left seeking proof.

As for plant fibers, seeing as the location (and therefore, it's treatment) of the "shroud" was unknown for several hundred years, supposedly...what would they signify? That it was hidden in a haystack?
Hey, the Shroud doesn't matter to me one way or another, it is you that seems to obsess over all things having to do with Christianity.

And you are right, it is a matter of faith, not proof. Blessed is he that believes without having to have proof.
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post #11 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Hey, the Shroud doesn't matter to me one way or another, it is you that seems to obsess over all things having to do with Christianity.
Only the amusing aspects of it, such as the tremendous spinning that goes on when yet another of it's "proofs" encounters science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post

And you are right, it is a matter of faith, not proof. Blessed is he that believes without having to have proof.
Blessed indeed; blessed by the religious charlatans and the "pilgrimage industry", because they are the one's they can fleece for the most money.

Now, about those plant fibers...?
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post #12 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:26pm
For quite a long while, the Roman Catholic Church has not claimed that the Shroud was 'real', or that believing in it was an article of faith - more or less it was to remind people of the passion of Christ. But, yeah, the carbon dating pretty much took it out of the realm of 'faith'. The Church often is not as unreasonable as you might think - for example, pretty much on the ball as far as evolution goes, etc. And the Church accepts extremely few 'miracles' - and from what I've read, an intensive investigation is performed before any are accepted.

Of course, a lot of 'Christians' don't accept the Roman Catholic Church at all - then again, when I was growing up, the Church wasn't keen on all the apostates either
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post #13 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Only the amusing aspects of it, such as the tremendous spinning that goes on when yet another of it's "proofs" encounters science.



Blessed indeed; blessed by the religious charlatans and the "pilgrimage industry", because they are the one's they can fleece for the most money.

Now, about those plant fibers...?
Your obsession and insults are disturbing. If you don't want to believe, then don't, but I feel it is unnecessary to insult someone's spiritual beliefs the way you do on a regular basis. Why is it so important to you if you don't believe anyway?

I know the truth, I'm sorry you don't.

And to Nekomania, it is easy to believe when you have proof, it isn't supposed to be easy. It is called faith for a reason.
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post #14 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Your obsession and insults are disturbing. If you don't want to believe, then don't, but I feel it is unnecessary to insult someone's spiritual beliefs the way you do on a regular basis. Why is it so important to you if you don't believe anyway?

>>I know the truth, I'm sorry you don't.<<
You just answered your own question!

Still waiting for the significance of the plant fibers you brought up.
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post #15 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:40pm
I've read the whole bible cover to cover, I used to go to church every sunday and when I grew up and could understand the things that were being preached to me I saw and read some very crazy things.

The bible says some pretty outrageous things. And you cannot deny that.

I don't believe that if there were a God or God-Like being, that he would say to stone my child to death if he/she didn't obey me and the word of the Lord.

Where is the merciful God that they speak of in church? Surely it's not the same God who tells me that it's okay to sell my daughter? Right because if I stood up in court after selling one of my children into Slavery and said "Well, I believe in the Bible your Honnor and the Bible says it's okay to sell my children into slavery" that wouldn't land me in jail in a heartbeat?



Oh, and last time I had a job, I worked every Sunday... Does that mean I should be executed because the Bible says that a person who works on Sunday's should be put to death?



I will worship no one and nothing that tells me that it's right to kill my disobedient children, and I will never believe in God without unmoving proof that He exists.
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post #16 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekomania View Post
I've read the whole bible cover to cover, I used to go to church every sunday and when I grew up and could understand the things that were being preached to me I saw and read some very crazy things.

The bible says some pretty outrageous things. And you cannot deny that.

I don't believe that if there were a God or God-Like being, that he would say to stone my child to death if he/she didn't obey me and the word of the Lord.

Where is the merciful God that they speak of in church? Surely it's not the same God who tells me that it's okay to sell my daughter? Right because if I stood up in court after selling one of my children into Slavery and said "Well, I believe in the Bible your Honnor and the Bible says it's okay to sell my children into slavery" that wouldn't land me in jail in a heartbeat?



Oh, and last time I had a job, I worked every Sunday... Does that mean I should be executed because the Bible says that a person who works on Sunday's should be put to death?



I will worship no one and nothing that tells me that it's right to kill my disobedient children, and I will never believe in God without unmoving proof that He exists.


Read the New Testament, Christ came, he made the ultimate sacrifice for us, he made all things new. Jesus wouldn't tell you to kill anyone.
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post #17 of 28
10/5/09 at 7:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by darlili View Post
For quite a long while, the Roman Catholic Church has not claimed that the Shroud was 'real', or that believing in it was an article of faith - more or less it was to remind people of the passion of Christ. But, yeah, the carbon dating pretty much took it out of the realm of 'faith'. The Church often is not as unreasonable as you might think - for example, pretty much on the ball as far as evolution goes, etc. And the Church accepts extremely few 'miracles' - and from what I've read, an intensive investigation is performed before any are accepted.
I think the Catholic church learned its lesson with incidents like Galileo and Giordano Bruno. Challenging scientific ideas based on the Bible (a specific interpretation of the Bible actually) is a dangerous proposition that tends to leave the challenger with egg on his face (or in the case of Giordano Bruno, blood on his hands). Even Augustine warned against it back in the 5th Century.
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post #18 of 28
10/5/09 at 8:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post


I feel sorry for atheists and agnostics, they try so hard to prove Jesus did not exist and that Jesus is not the Son of God. They can't because He did and He is.
Are you kidding me? I'm not offended, but you shouldn't be offended either when I say I feel sorry for people who have faith, they try hard to deny their own ability to reason and use logic and believe in something that they have no proof exists...
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post #19 of 28
10/5/09 at 8:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Read the New Testament, Christ came, he made the ultimate sacrifice for us, he made all things new. Jesus wouldn't tell you to kill anyone.
Imposing limits on Jesus again, eh?
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post #20 of 28
10/5/09 at 8:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekomania View Post
I've read the whole bible cover to cover, I used to go to church every sunday and when I grew up and could understand the things that were being preached to me I saw and read some very crazy things.

The bible says some pretty outrageous things. And you cannot deny that.

I don't believe that if there were a God or God-Like being, that he would say to stone my child to death if he/she didn't obey me and the word of the Lord.

Where is the merciful God that they speak of in church? Surely it's not the same God who tells me that it's okay to sell my daughter? Right because if I stood up in court after selling one of my children into Slavery and said "Well, I believe in the Bible your Honnor and the Bible says it's okay to sell my children into slavery" that wouldn't land me in jail in a heartbeat?



Oh, and last time I had a job, I worked every Sunday... Does that mean I should be executed because the Bible says that a person who works on Sunday's should be put to death?



I will worship no one and nothing that tells me that it's right to kill my disobedient children, and I will never believe in God without unmoving proof that He exists.

I can't help but to think that there is some kind of creator, either god or energy, somewhere; something to which we would simply be another strain of bacteria, or amoeba. But the entire Abrahamic concept of a revealed god puts limits on their god. All the Abrahamic faiths seem to agree that god is not allowed to change his mind; for some reason he needs/desires/craves the adoration and obedience of lesser beings, and has a prize for all he good little boys and girls. None of that sounds particularly god-like.
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post #21 of 28
10/5/09 at 8:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
[color="Navy"][b]Your obsession and insults are disturbing. If you don't want to believe, then don't, but I feel it is unnecessary to insult someone's spiritual beliefs the way you do on a regular basis. Why is it so important to you if you don't believe anyway?
BTW, the feelings you are describing are exactly the feelings of those of non-christian faiths when a christian tells them...

Quote:
I know the truth, I'm sorry you don't.
Aggravating, isn't it?
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post #22 of 28
10/5/09 at 9:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
All the Abrahamic faiths seem to agree that god is not allowed to change his mind; for some reason he needs/desires/craves the adoration and obedience of lesser beings, and has a prize for all he good little boys and girls. None of that sounds particularly god-like.
Hmmm...that sounds more like santa claus.

Back to the Shroud of Turin....I too thought that was declared a fake years ago. If it gave some people that needed some kind of artifact as proof then it helped them. If other's needed that as proof of God and it didn't prove it, well, what can we do?

There is basically no winning when it comes to religion because emotions are too much of a factor. No one will be able to see the other side because religion is faith based which defies reason. I have faith in my own beliefs. Politics you can debate....religion, I don't think you can because that is more personal. You can argue but that doesn't get you anywhere.
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post #23 of 28
10/5/09 at 10:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
Hmmm...that sounds more like santa claus.

Back to the Shroud of Turin....I too thought that was declared a fake years ago. If it gave some people that needed some kind of artifact as proof then it helped them. If other's needed that as proof of God and it didn't prove it, well, what can we do?

There is basically no winning when it comes to religion because emotions are too much of a factor. No one will be able to see the other side because religion is faith based which defies reason. I have faith in my own beliefs. Politics you can debate....religion, I don't think you can because that is more personal. You can argue but that doesn't get you anywhere.
I have to agree...

as for the shroud it was on the national geographic channel as a fake yrs ago
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post #24 of 28
10/6/09 at 4:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
Hmmm...that sounds more like santa claus.

Back to the Shroud of Turin....I too thought that was declared a fake years ago. If it gave some people that needed some kind of artifact as proof then it helped them. If other's needed that as proof of God and it didn't prove it, well, what can we do?

There is basically no winning when it comes to religion because emotions are too much of a factor. No one will be able to see the other side because religion is faith based which defies reason. I have faith in my own beliefs. Politics you can debate....religion, I don't think you can because that is more personal. You can argue but that doesn't get you anywhere.
It was, but those who desperately wanted to believe it was real simply declared that scientific dating methods don't work, or they are wildly inaccurate. Unless, of course, they're being used to date something that is supposedly "biblical", in which case, they're pretty darned good stuff.
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post #25 of 28
10/6/09 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
BTW, the feelings you are describing are exactly the feelings of those of non-christian faiths when a christian tells them...



Aggravating, isn't it?
Really, please show me where I have ever called any atheists or agnostics names, such as you do in every, single thread regarding Chrisitanity, most of which you start.
Here is some name calling in this thread....

Quote:
Blessed indeed; blessed by the religious charlatans and the "pilgrimage industry", because they are the one's they can fleece for the most money
And that is just in this thread. Your disdain and disgust for all things Christian has been obvious for as long as you have been on this forum IMO.

Quote:
I know the truth, I'm sorry you don't.


If you took that as an insult, you have gravely misunderstood me. I AM sorry you don't know the truth and it was, definitely, not an insult and it certainly isn't name calling so don't try to spin it into one.
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post #26 of 28
10/6/09 at 1:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Really, please show me where I have ever called any atheists or agnostics names, such as you do in every, single thread regarding Chrisitanity, most of which you start.
Here is some name calling in this thread....

And that is just in this thread. Your disdain and disgust for all things Christian has been obvious for as long as you have been on this forum IMO.



If you took that as an insult, you have gravely misunderstood me. I AM sorry you don't know the truth and it was, definitely, not an insult and it certainly isn't name calling so don't try to spin it into one.
No spinning required. Of course it's an insult. How can you see anything challenging your religion as an insult, yet not have the least issue with insulting every other religion on earth by declaring them false? You routinely make statements that equate to "my beliefs are right, yours are wrong", yet when subjected to similar statements, you respond as such;

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Your obsession and insults are disturbing. If you don't want to believe, then don't, but I feel it is unnecessary to insult someone's spiritual beliefs the way you do on a regular basis. Why is it so important to you if you don't believe anyway?
Are you claiming some type of elitism, where it isn't allowed for Christians to be treated exactly as they treat everyone else?
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post #27 of 28
10/6/09 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
No spinning required. Of course it's an insult. How can you see anything challenging your religion as an insult, yet not have the least issue with insulting every other religion on earth by declaring them false? You routinely make statements that equate to "my beliefs are right, yours are wrong", yet when subjected to similar statements, you respond as such;



Are you claiming some type of elitism, where it isn't allowed for Christians to be treated exactly as they treat everyone else?
I'm sorry you feel the need to call me a liar, Skippy.
I am not name calling people based on the fact of their religion.
I'm sorry you feel the need to.

Please do not put words in my mouth, with the amendment of the word "equate". I am no one's judge, just an old sinner.
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post #28 of 28
10/6/09 at 2:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I'm sorry you feel the need to call me a liar, Skippy.
I am not name calling people based on the fact of their religion.
I'm sorry you feel the need to.

Please do not put words in my mouth, with the amendment of the word "equate". I am no one's judge, just an old sinner.
So you're going to make more accusations, and again avoid the points? And where do you get "liar" from what I said? I don't think you're lying. I do, however, think that you are applying a quite rigorous double standard by claiming to be insulted while insulting others.

It tickles me that you feel accusing me of "name calling" might win some kind of reprieve. The Pilgrimage industry is quite real, in fact, it's even referred to by that very title by it's participants, and it's main purpose for existence is to take money from believers. And christianity is full of charlatans, both wildly famous and discreet. Did you know that there are guides at the Mt. Sinai in Egypt that claim to know which bush was burning, and will point it out to you...for a big tip.

This is just another example of that elitism I mentioned. A christian declaring all other religions "false" doesn't see that as insulting, yet someone making the same statements in the reverse are insulting, troubling, etc etc etc. And then there is the grasping for "name calling", claiming that calling the Pilgrimage industry "Pilgrimage industry" and by calling charlatans "charlatans" is "name calling"

As for the "no one's judge" part...there is another thread on this forum where judgment and moral condemnation are in full swing.
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