Pet Suggestions

She was trying to nest & my dad actually went to a kitchen store when we couldn't find anything suitable for a nest (and a NICE kitchen store, william sonoma...) and tried to describe to the clerk what he was looking for... .

She never did nest, but she also never stopped eating. Which is why we think she bound and it just presented strangely. It's been over 3 years, I can't imagine anything would manage to live that long in a tank without a host. It's not hard to dissinfect sand & such anyway (just toss it in the oven).

There is no way it was a disease passed from one beardie to another. My brother didn't know any one who had a beardie too.

I can't imagine it was from the grocery store, I know they always washed very thoroughly and she got lots of things from our non-pesticide backyard to munch on.

I've been trying to convince my brother to get another beardie but he's not in a very stable place right now (was at school, now going out of country to volunteer) so he knows better. Even though I keep offering to "lizard-sit" (a.k.a. steal... ).

Yeah I think my sister is out of luck on the pet department . I'll keep trying to convince her to get a little betta, at least they are cute!!

Never trust a cat & especially never trust a black & white tuxedo named Jedi!!

Originally Posted by Nes

There is no way it was a disease passed from one beardie to another. My brother didn't know any one who had a beardie too.

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Insects can carry some diseases, and crickets are usually the main ones to watch out for. The adenovirus I mentioned is a bit like HIV/AIDs - an infected female will pass it to her babies. They hatch out with it, if they survive you get a lizard that never really thrives. Like a cat with FIV, it can be kept alive but is more susceptible to parasites, fungal infections, other viruses and metabolic problems.
I had really considered getting a beardie at one point, but reading up on this made me decide that if I ever do I want one coming from a clean breeder. Unfortunately there's no real test for the virus.

Parasites can live in soils and be heat resistant. Most beardies carry coccidia. And sand is near deadly to use with many reptiles - they eat it and get intestinal blockages. At least have him throw the that out. Alternatives like repti-carpet are safer and more sanitary.

If anyone decides to get a pet, especially anything that falls into the exotic category, research is vital. Like TCS there are several enthusiast forums that can help guide people. Make sure to stress this to your sister, and also make sure that she knows she must find a vet that is capable of treating her pet before she gets it. Also direct her to petfinder and local rescue groups - all sorts of animals need people to adopt them. Don't support petshops that are all out there to exploit animals.

That's very intersting about the adenovirus... I'm going too shoot him an email about that actually. That might make sense in terms of her behaviour (continueing to eat crickets, she also didn't get as big as she should have).

He did get Falcor from a reputable reptile breeder so got LOTS of information on how to care for her, but it's quite complicated! I remember the guy had 3-4 beardies just in a closet sort of thing they were in there because he was getting them ready to breed or something? I'm not really sure. Omg, that sounds bad though - it wasn't like he just had them in a wardrobe where you'd keep your clothes, it's hard to explain. He was well known though, they had an all-reptile shop, did camps & out-reach stuff.

Personally I wanted alex to go with one of the monitors... they are so cool looking!!!
(yeah I know)

There was a reason he had to use sand, it was a special sand in the tank then something different in her "nest" I don't really remember.

Originally Posted by Nes

There was a reason he had to use sand, it was a special sand in the tank then something different in her "nest" I don't really remember.

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Was that "special sand" calci sand? If so, and if that breeder recommended it that really suggests that the breeder he got his beardie from was not a good one. Calci sand is worse than regular sand - the only animal it should ever be used with is hermit crabs. It would be comparable to using clay litter that had been coated in chicken flavoring to encourage your cats to eat it. A little piece of clay occasionally ingested won't hurt your cat, but if they actually start eating the clay it will lead to intestinal blockages - it's the same for reptiles and calci sand.

There are only a few species of burrowing lizards that need sand (to prevent stress) and even for these it's suggested never to use calci sand and to avoid feeding them on sand. Even so, some people still lose species like knob tail geckos to sand impaction.

I truly wish that OTC flea "treatments" and calci sand would be taken off the market since both kill pets....

For many species of reptiles that need medium to low humidity reptile carpet is a great sanitary solution to substrate. Another easy option is ceramic tile, laid but not adhered inside the cage - it allows for good heat conduction and can be sterilized.

His beardie could have been small due to poor health, bad breeding, or even because she was a Lawson's dragon.
Had it been the first two, even if she had laid her eggs the stress of it could have potentially been more than her body could handle.

As for her diet - I have nine juvi ornate box turtles, one of the more carnivorous subspecies of North American box turtles. It's generally accepted that the first year they should be fed mostly insects and protein sources. Unsurprisingly, keepers who follow this can have some problems introducing a more balanced diet later.
I never followed this, instead I offered small amounts of veggies right from the start - focusing on flavor and color to encourage them to eat. I had no problems later when increasing their veggie meals per week - they'll at least try anything I put on their dishes. My understanding is that other omnivores can behave this way, too.
If her diet wasn't varied enough that could have led to some metabolic problems that even had she successfully laid, would have taken a toll on her body.

Re washing veggies: I've came across forums where people discussed losing their beardies and iguanas to veggies they didn't wash well enough. It happens - just think of how much we're cumulatively ingesting. During some past e-coli problems with veggies people have lost beardies and iguanas to it, too ( you can't really wash off e-coli or other bacteria).

This has went really O/T but does sort of show why some reptiles aren't a best first reptile. I generally recommend leopard geckos due to their more simpler needs, easier to manage diet, and because they're hardier.
Whatever your sister decides, I wish her luck. And if it's a smaller animal that she makes sure the cage can be shut into a room that cats are never allowed alone with it in and that the cage locks up tight.

Oh I don't care we're off topic, I don't know what/if my sister is going to get a pet anyway .

I'm not sure what sort of sand it was, all I remember it was a special sand so if she ate some it wasn't a big deal & would pass just fine. I know he did ALLOT of research about that online. STill the ceramic tile suggestion is interesting, I know she needed the sand to lay her eggs in though. It wasn't the breeder that suggested the sand, I know he got that from the pet store - I'm not sure what the breeder recommended.

She was always given veggies & did eat lots, it was more that she just kept showing a real interest in crickets and would eat 4-5 with her veggie meal. He also gave her a commercial reptile pellet & a vitamin to supplement her food; and gut loaded his crickets (I remember I traded some fish I bred for some cricket food for him ).

We're actually thinking of "adopting" a wild box turtle to come live in my garden & eat the bugs next year . I'm going to have to remember to ask you questions in the spring!! By "adopting" I mean moving one 50' from the river to our backyard & providing him with a proper habitat. I didn't want to get a commercially bred turtle because I'm concerned about releasing diseases into our local population.

Originally Posted by Nes

I'm not sure what sort of sand it was, all I remember it was a special sand so if she ate some it wasn't a big deal & would pass just fine. I know he did ALLOT of research about that online.

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That sounds like calci sand claims. Again, 2-3 grains rarely ingested of any sand will pass, more won't. There's no special sand that suddenly stops being sand. And don't take this the wrong way - but he must not have researched enough. Look up "sand impaction" and "calci sand impaction" - put some + signs in there and google should give you ~87,000 results (though not all will be on subject, thats still a lot of results).
Some say it's ok for adults but bad for babies, but again - sand is still sand, and any particulate substrate can be deadly.

Understand, I only want to encourage people to never buy and use this stuff and to make sure they tell everyone else how bad it is. Never believe what a person trying to sell you a product tells you - they have an agenda to make a sell.
It makes me so mad to see tiny baby geckos kept on it in Petsmart and Petco - you can see their little bellies abnormally swollen from it.

If I'm not mistaken, beardies have the same requirements for nesting that geckos do - a nest box filled with a sterile moist soil mixture (not sand) or vermiculite. Sand wouldn't be a suitable nesting material and many reptiles wouldn't lay in it.

Originally Posted by Nes

We're actually thinking of "adopting" a wild box turtle to come live in my garden & eat the bugs next year

.

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No! Please don't. You're welcome to leave treats out for the turtle that comes in your yard or even make a compost pile for it to hide under and hunt insects in, but don't take a breeding adult out of the wild population. A little taken here and there adds up and has been devastating on the wild population in some areas.

Look at petfinder or ask your local herp society. Turtles live a long time, often outliving their keepers interest or ability to care for them. A captive turtle won't harm a wild population as long as it's kept separate and never released into the wild (that's actually illegal to do here).

It's hard for me to say anything about the sand, it was a long time ago & the beardie wasn't mine. Maybe it wasn't "sand" but some other crushed material?

Back to turtles:

I was thinking more like we'd rescue one of the numerous little babies that get hit on our road every summer & fall . Hubby already stops for every turtle & helps them across the road (he's so cute!!). I don't want of those big suckers in my yard!! Then the turtle can return to the wild population to hibernate for the winter & rejoin the breeding population.

We live against a cow field which prevents them from migrating into OUR yard, otherwise I'm sure we'd have TONS.

I'm too worried the turtle would get out, even if we do a really good job with the fence but maybe I'll see if there is a rescue that wants to re-release a turtle & we can just let him go in the yard then let him make his own mind up!

Originally Posted by Nes

I'm too worried the turtle would get out, even if we do a really good job with the fence

but maybe I'll see if there is a rescue that wants to re-release a turtle & we can just let him go in the yard then let him make his own mind up!

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Help the wild ones out, but let them be wild.

You can't rerelease a turtle that has been in captivity. Only wildlife rehabbers can do this and they have specific rules they have to follow. Just dumping a turtle into a large foreign environment can lead to it's death - it would be essentially be lost. In the wild turtles have territories, if you move them out of their territory they have to relearn everything about that area. When they're needing to feed, stay hydrated, and avoid predators it makes it more complicated for them if they have no knowledge of the place to begin with. They're also racing a clock counting down to fall and hibernation.

There's a couple of old turtle threads on here which I posted links to great sites. There should be information from indoor care, outdoor enclosure care/building, to diet and the problems that can arise from a bad diet. Look it up.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

Was that "special sand" calci sand? If so, and if that breeder recommended it that really suggests that the breeder he got his beardie from was not a good one. Calci sand is worse than regular sand - the only animal it should ever be used with is hermit crabs.

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Actually, (way OT here, LOL), it should NEVER be used with hermit crabs. It doesn't hold moisture well, and hermit crabs need high humidity to survive. Plus it doesn't hold tunnels, so the crabs can't moult properly. I'm on 2 hermit crab forums, and it seems like most of our time is spent convincing newbies not to use Calci-Sand. Playsand and/or coconut fiber (Eco-Earth and similar brands) are the only recommended hermit crab substrates.

Is Calci-Sand good for anything ? Guess not.

Originally Posted by Willowy

Actually, (way OT here, LOL), it should NEVER be used with hermit crabs. It doesn't hold moisture well, and hermit crabs need high humidity to survive. Plus it doesn't hold tunnels, so the crabs can't moult properly. I'm on 2 hermit crab forums, and it seems like most of our time is spent convincing newbies not to use Calci-Sand. Playsand and/or coconut fiber (Eco-Earth and similar brands) are the only recommended hermit crab substrates.

Is Calci-Sand good for anything ?

Guess not.

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I thought it could be used in small areas? - not the whole cage. I think it might be ok for some fish tanks? Though I'm not sure about what it does to ph and whether it would even be safe for that.
Overall - it's one of those useless products that is always pushed on consumers.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

I thought it could be used in small areas? - not the whole cage.

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Well, yeah, it's not harmful, and we frequently recommend the uncolored kind as a calcium supplement. It just really stinks as a main substrate, that's all.

I think it wouldn't do well in a fish tank. Bad things happen when it gets wet.....

I just got two rats and I would recommend them.

If she gets two females they don't mark as much as the males [so less smell] but if she keeps up on cage cleaning there is no odor. I got two males who are going to be neutered soon [I work in a vet clinic so it's cheap.] They are very smart. You can litter box train them, mostly for the poops but I think some people have been successful with fully litter box training them. You can teach them all kinds of tricks, they are really smart and a lot like dogs.

They are pretty low maintanence and easy to care for, they can eat pretty much anything... I've never been a small animal person but I can say they are a lot of fun.