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Animal rights is WRONG - Page 2

post #31 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
But the responsible owners are the ones who already DO spay and neuter so they won't even be affected by the laws.
As far as breeders, I think there should be a license to be a breeder...
Responsible owners WILL be affected by the laws. Yes, I spay/neuter my pets, but not if I'm showing or breeding. In order to show or breed I need to have intact animals.

And the problem here is that who is to determine who gets to own a breeder license? Responsible and ethical breeders will have to fight to keep their animals intact, while irresponsible owners will just continue letting theirs breed.

Either way you look at it, it will not solve the overpopulation problem. It will just make things more difficult for responsible breeders.

Now, don't get me wrong here... In an idealist sense I agree with mandatory spay/neuter with exceptions made for those showing and responsibly breeding. However, there is no conceivable way for these laws to do more good than harm.
post #32 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bookworm View Post
I have to say I would be in favor of ALMOST anything that would get more pet owners to spay and nueter. True that responsible pet owners are not creating colonys of semi feral cats to starve and fallprey to disease, but sadly we are in the minority.
Driving home after an evening shift there is a small creek on my street, and it's low banks house countless cats. It's almost eerie to see all the glowing eyes in my headlights.
I have taken in and tamed and altered so many, but haven't even made a dent. Pretty depressing.
I just don't see where the extremist groups, well meaning as they may have started out, are providing an acceptable alternative. I wish someone could though.
I know what you mean As much as I squawk about AR extremists..I get just as frustrated and annoyed with the IDIOTS out there that truly don't care and don't get it and let their animals run loose, etc..etc...I DO think that things have improved since the 1980's.
post #33 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by otto View Post
I throw away the begging letters I get from HSUS. I don't like their shock tactics, for one thing. I know the abuse is rampant, I don't need it shoved in my face. All that does is make me even more against giving them any money.

I am not cut out for rescue or foster work, but when I have a little extra money, I like to give it personally. I mean, to someone I know, who does the kind of work I don't have the stomach for. Because those people are my heros.


This is a terrific thread. I really like this forum. It seems people can have differing view points without a lot of name calling and flaming. That says a lot about a board in general, you know?

There ya go, Otto!! I think what you do is great! And that is some of the BEST advice we can impart to others..those well-meaning folks who would LIKE to do something to help, but may be misguided into sending $$$$ to those billionaire groups who only use the $$$$ to stab us in the back with their legislation! It is sooo much better to personally donate to a known cause..something local, a friend who rescues, a vet office...etc..!! GREAT job!
post #34 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrillblaiddes View Post
Parents can make pretty much all those decisions for their kids (the breeding thing doesn't really apply...I hope...) so I don't see how being referred to as a cat guardian instead of a cat owner would change my right to take care of my cats as I see fit as long as it doesn't cause harm.
COZ that's PETA's goal, that's why!!
post #35 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
But the responsible owners are the ones who already DO spay and neuter so they won't even be affected by the laws.
As far as breeders, I think there should be a license to be a breeder...
Hi Utopia...I am a responsible owner who is ALSO the occasional breeder of health-tested, titled purebred dogs! I have been showing dogs for 11 years and have had ONE litter thus far. Am tentatively planning a frozen semen breeding in about two years. I am basically a pet owner who shows. I do not have a kennel set up. My dogs live in the house. Your laws would require me to move b/c my property would not be zoned kennel and I would be required to keep my dogs (my house dogs!) in a kennel. I would be subject to inspections even though this is a private home with RARE (really rare) litters...just because I have in tact show dogs! Many more requirements that would be absolutely prohibitive of me wanting to continue this hobby. Think about how you would like that and then come back and tell me I should have a license. It would be THE END of any future plans..I would have to give it all up or move and I wouldn't/couldn't do that because it would result in divorce. This is how most responsible, caring, hobby breeders would wind up....totally getting OUT of it...and guess what? No more well bred dogs and cats.............................that's what PETA et al want......................is that what YOU want? Think about it a little more before you say all breeders should be licensed.............thank you......
post #36 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrillblaiddes View Post
What counts as a breeder, though? If someone takes in a pregnant stray and sells the kittens to cover expenses, is that a breeder? What about accidental breeding because of not getting females spayed soon enough (suppose they go to a vet that doesn't believe in pediatric spay), is that person a breeder? If someone feeds a feral colony and doesn't manage to TNR every cat, but they catch and rehome some of the kittens, does that make them a breeder?

None of those sound like breeder behavior to me, and banning them would create a huge burden on normal pet care (as well as probably being impossible to enforce), but defining them as non-breeder situations would create enough loopholes for unethical types.
ALL of the above would make a person a breeder!! That's why this cover-all legislation is a terrible idea!! Thanks for your input...
post #37 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strange_wings View Post
The closest thing to a domestic cat is other subspecies of felis silvestris, which the house cat (f. silvestris catus) is actually sometimes considered a subspecies of.
Bobcats are of the lynx genus, which is completely different.


I don't get everyone going on about being a "guardian". It must be some empty feel good word like so many others that people attach sentimental meaning to. An animal is an animal, not a child. Respect them for being the animals they are. Would anyone want some government agency being able to come in and look at your home and declare your care unfit because you're not providing the most expensive food? Because you didn't buy some $300+ cat tree? Because some of you don't follow the one litter box for every cat + 1 rule? Or, and this one actually exists in some areas thanks to AR, because you have more than the predetermined set limit of two or three cats? (this one is particular is against breeders)

My cats are my cats, plain and simple. Just like my reptiles are mine. They are my property. If I wished to transfer said property to someone else, for whatever reason (lots of people here rehome cats, before anyone tries to twist this into meaning something else), that's my prerogative and no one else's.
Things should be kept as they are, what basic laws that protect animals from cruelty and neglect should be enforced whenever possible, and no more stupid AR pushed bills are needed. The funding wasting on these bills would be better spent elsewhere.

Cat and dog owners rarely see a lot of these bills. But as a reptile owner I see that there are always some being pushed to take away peoples rights to keep their reptile pets. Thankfully, a recent crazy one pushed by HSUS didn't go through with it's original wording. Fun little bit of info, during a conference to work on HR2811 HSUS provided little facts or science and instead argued using emotional rhetoric, USARK presented the facts and by doing this got support to amend the bill so that it didn't ban all pythons.
Goofy emotional rhetoric tends to be a problem which clouds most peoples judgment on many things, unfortunately.

Currently the exotic and reptile groups are out there fighting for your rights to your pets, and it would be nice if the dog and cat owners realized this threat and added support and funds to the effort.

Thankfully the majority of the people on here do realize that AR groups are harmful. But I bet most don't know current bills they're pushing ATM. And if anyone did, would you write your congressman not to limit or ban ownership of exotics, reptiles, birds, or rodents? or would it fall under the radar as not being important because it didn't involve house cats?
AH the voice of reason!!!
post #38 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Yes I think the word owner is too harsh and implies that animals are objects that can be owned..
that's why I don't like it. I would prefer guardian...
OH please...I'm sorry, but harsh-smarsh....
post #39 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allmycats View Post
ALL of the above would make a person a breeder!! That's why this cover-all legislation is a terrible idea!! Thanks for your input...
Yeah...it's like...if I see a cat on the property, living on what it pulls out of the dumpster or catches of local wildlife, and it's steadily getting bulgier and bulgier over the course of a couple months...I am going to try to catch her, so that I can keep her from making another litter after that and so the kittens get a proper non-feral start in life...and then I am going to have to try to rehome her and the litter when they're old enough...and I just might charge an adoption fee, to defray my expenses in raising them and make sure they're considered valuable by their new humans...and frack anyone that says I need a "breeder license" for that. I would need several bags of kitten food, and to clean out my clothes closet for an isolation room until mamacat's bloodwork comes back clean (it has a light and an air conditioning vent, not ideal but it wouldn't suck for a day or two), and the common sense to stick her in the carrier and go to the vet if the delivery gets squirrelly, not the scale of setup that would go into a humane commercial breeding operation or the knowledge about feline genetics that it would take to breed a better mousetrap.
post #40 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrillblaiddes View Post
Yeah...it's like...if I see a cat on the property, living on what it pulls out of the dumpster or catches of local wildlife, and it's steadily getting bulgier and bulgier over the course of a couple months...I am going to try to catch her, so that I can keep her from making another litter after that and so the kittens get a proper non-feral start in life...and then I am going to have to try to rehome her and the litter when they're old enough...and I just might charge an adoption fee, to defray my expenses in raising them and make sure they're considered valuable by their new humans...and frack anyone that says I need a "breeder license" for that. I would need several bags of kitten food, and to clean out my clothes closet for an isolation room until mamacat's bloodwork comes back clean (it has a light and an air conditioning vent, not ideal but it wouldn't suck for a day or two), and the common sense to stick her in the carrier and go to the vet if the delivery gets squirrelly, not the scale of setup that would go into a humane commercial breeding operation or the knowledge about feline genetics that it would take to breed a better mousetrap.
Exactly!! Many of these laws throw rescues right under the bus with everyone else! How counterproductive is that?? Right..VERY...so nonsensical.
post #41 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by strange_wings View Post
Currently the exotic and reptile groups are out there fighting for your rights to your pets, and it would be nice if the dog and cat owners realized this threat and added support and funds to the effort.

Thankfully the majority of the people on here do realize that AR groups are harmful. But I bet most don't know current bills they're pushing ATM. And if anyone did, would you write your congressman not to limit or ban ownership of exotics, reptiles, birds, or rodents? or would it fall under the radar as not being important because it didn't involve house cats?
Boy, us exotic people are fighting and fighting hard. I get this all the time though. Well, no one should keep those cats, but it seems ok for these same people to keep their domestic cats. What these people do not realize and I say it time and time again, is that these AR groups only start with exotics, because it is easier to convince people that they should be banned. But, that is not where they want to stop. As we say in one exotic group I belong to, the motto is: First it's exotics, then domestics. When it comes to exotics, such as the cats I keep, I do agree with FAIR regulations. Regulations that fully support responsible ownership and regulations that are NOT so strict, that they are nothing more than a ban hidden as regulations. There should NEVER be a ban...period.
post #42 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat View Post
Boy, us exotic people are fighting and fighting hard. I get this all the time though. Well, no one should keep those cats, but it seems ok for these same people to keep their domestic cats. What these people do not realize and I say it time and time again, is that these AR groups only start with exotics, because it is easier to convince people that they should be banned. But, that is not where they want to stop. As we say in one exotic group I belong to, the motto is: First it's exotics, then domestics. When it comes to exotics, such as the cats I keep, I do agree with FAIR regulations. Regulations that fully support responsible ownership and regulations that are NOT so strict, that they are nothing more than a ban hidden as regulations. There should NEVER be a ban...period.
Well-said! Bans are so knee-jerk, non-productive and just harmful!
post #43 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat View Post
I do agree with FAIR regulations. Regulations that fully support responsible ownership and regulations that are NOT so strict, that they are nothing more than a ban hidden as regulations. There should NEVER be a ban...period.
... how should these fair regulations regarding big cats be in your oppinion?

regards,

christine
post #44 of 48
Well, thank you OP for this thread. I feel very stupid right now, but at least better educated. HSUS and The American Humane Society are not the same group, are they? I'll put my glasses on and read the fine print before I send off a donation next time.
post #45 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bookworm View Post
Well, thank you OP for this thread. I feel very stupid right now, but at least better educated. HSUS and The American Humane Society are not the same group, are they? I'll put my glasses on and read the fine print before I send off a donation next time.

Hi,

if you want to donate then your best opion is usually finding out which rescue is doing the actual work in your area (neutering cats, taking care of feral colonies, rehoming) and then asking them what they could really use. Then buy and donate the required items (food, cat traps, paying a vets bill).

Just my 2 cents on this topic,

christine
post #46 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh27 View Post
if you want to donate then your best opion is usually finding out which rescue is doing the actual work in your area (neutering cats, taking care of feral colonies, rehoming) and then asking them what they could really use. Then buy and donate the required items (food, cat traps, paying a vets bill).
Agreed, help a rescue in need. Donate your money where you can witness the benefits. Most local rescues and shelters are in dire need of financial help.

AR orgs will use the money to get rich and make anti-pet legislation.
post #47 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bookworm View Post
Well, thank you OP for this thread. I feel very stupid right now, but at least better educated. HSUS and The American Humane Society are not the same group, are they? I'll put my glasses on and read the fine print before I send off a donation next time.
The American Humane Society sounds like just another AR activist group to me, just likes HSUS, PETA and others. However, I really do not know much about them. If your really want to help, donate to your local shelters, who you know that are actually running a shelter and helping animlas in need. I donate to 2 local shelters in my area.
Quote:
... how should these fair regulations regarding big cats be in your oppinion?
This is simple. People should be allowed to own such animals, but must follow some very simple rules that promote responsible safe ownership and that the cats have the proper care. For large cats, cougar on up, should have at minimum, 1 acre of land. Cats smaller than a cougar, such as the lynx, serval, caracal and so fourth, there would really be no need for this 1 acre minimum, as long as you can provide the proper sized enclosure with perimeter fence. Proper caging regulations, that require you to have a perimeter fence and double door entry system, with doors that only open inward. Proper feeding guidelines as well. And, random inspections by your state wildlife officers, to ensure these guidlines are met. See how simple and easy this is?? No bans, but regulations that ensure safe responsible ownership. Most of these regulations are required if you are USDA licensed. Note: I follow all these rules here that I listed.
Quote:
AR orgs will use the money to get rich and make anti-pet legislation.
Yes they will, as they do this already!!
post #48 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bookworm View Post
Well, thank you OP for this thread. I feel very stupid right now, but at least better educated. HSUS and The American Humane Society are not the same group, are they? I'll put my glasses on and read the fine print before I send off a donation next time.
You're welcome!!!! I'm glad that you learned something!! Yes, donating directly to your local shelter (or your favorite breed rescue, cat or dog) is the best way of making sure the money will actually be used for animals!
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