Running Out of Options

catsandchins

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I'm writing here as a last resort. I need help dealing with a serious cat problem and I am out of options. This post is long, so if you just want to get to the "what I need help with" part, scroll to the bold. Thanks.

My wife and I have a cat that is 2 years old along with our older adopted rescue and two chinchillas. All are male. The 2 year old, named Claude, seems to suffer from what I could only call massive separation anxiety.

We got Claude roughly 6 weeks after we lost Puma; an adopted stray I had rescued from a shelter shortly after I graduated high school. Puma had been with me (then us) for ten years, suffered from Feline FIV, blindness, and later diabetes. After the vet failed to convert Puma's weight from pounds to kilograms for his insulin, Puma had to be rushed to the hospital on a fourth of July to save his life.

After that incident, Puma was diagnosed with a fluid building around his heart that would eventually lead to congestive heart failure. We kept him lavished him with the finest of everything for the remainder of his life, until we had a vet come to the house to put him to sleep when he could no longer walk or use the bathroom without help.

I tell this story as a precursor to the Claude incident only so those who will judge my "commitment" to my animals understands the lengths of which my wife and I will go through to help our animals.

After dinner one evening, my wife and I wandered into a local mom and pop pet store just to see the animals and maybe even get a fish or two for the tank at my office. I was immediately taken with a small kitten that just adored suckling on my finger when I went to pet him. I had heard you should never, ever buy from a pet store, and I always felt that if you have room in your heart and home for an animal, you should rescue; but I also am a firm believer in animals choosing their owners, and not vice versa.

We got Claude home and in the evening, he began displaying a behavior that was immediately troublesome: When I flopped onto our bed without a shirt on, he immediately made a dash for my chest, attempting to latch on to my nipple. After a scream of "Dude, I'm a guy!", we laughed it off as something that a kitten might do when he was confused.

It has never stopped.

At night, he'll climb up on my wife's chest and attempt to suckle on her ear in the same fashion. In my opinion, its more of a reaffirmation that he had been weened too early, but time, discipline, bitter apple, etc. seems to cure him of this.

As he got older, he began urinating outside the litter box. We have tried a number of different options to solve this problem (including trying to rescue another cat that we now have, hoping that he could 'teach' Claude) but again, nothing works.

Claude has been on Prozac for several months and the issue has not gone really stopped. If anything, the situation with Claude's "baby-like tendencies" always seems to ebb and flow. You can tell he's headed for a regression when he jumps into our bathtub and tries to nurse from the faucet with his doughy eyed look that he gets when he's trying to nurse.

The situation has taken a turn for the worse in recent months. He's begun liking back legs to the point of bloodiness, and has been fashioning a halo for the past two weeks. After the first week, we took it off after they were healed over only to find him doing the same thing again.

He 'seems' happy. He's quite social and loving, even if his purrs aren't always there. When my wife went to get groceries this morning, I awoke to the smell of urine as he took the chance to let 'er rip in our bedroom. I yelled at him, rubbed his nose in it, but I know that its not going to help...and I don't know if I've run out of options.


So, here's the problem:

The cat urinates outside the box, nervously licks himself to the point of bleeding, and still attempts to nurse at over two years of age.

We have spent hundreds of dollars in Feliway, blocking windows to avoid outside stimulus, buying him a buddy, catering to him, disciplining him, setting up an array of webcams to monitor him, and countless others to no avail. Pretty much everything in the sticky above are things we've tried.

We have spent equally hundreds if not thousands dollars in veterinary visits, test, and prescriptions and had no success. We've only tried Prozac at this point but I've been recently advocating for something stronger.

We have a calm and serene house. No kids but the biological clock is a'tickin and the thought has crossed our mind. We need to resolve this situation before we can consider human babies.

We're not rich and I don't know how much more we can afford in changing vets and starting the process all over again. Between him and the cat before him, we're looking at a nice down payment on a house that has evaporated because of pet costs above and beyond what's normally expected of a regular owner.

Pawning him off to a shelter is not an option. If Claude has a problem, we love him and want to help him if we can. But we feel like we have exhausted every conceivable option, and the only two things I can think of that are left are letting him run free (he loves the outside and we purchased a leash trolley and vest for him to stay outside for hours) or assuming that he is unhappy and unfixable with the end result being termination.

Possible solutions I've considered (but need feedback):
I've pondered the idea of placing him at a "cat hotel" for a week or so just to separate him from the things he's comfortable with. Kind of like how a teenager needs to leave home to grow up, I thought maybe this may work, but I've never needed to try such a thing.

I'd like to try a different prescription. Prozac is an SSRI and I'm aware that it doesn't necessarily work on everyone (or every animal) the same way. Is there anyone who can relate an experience of Prozac not working that was replaced by something that did that helped the animal?

We've tried crating him when we're gone, or leaving him in one room and that has ended usually poorly. At one point, he clawed the bathroom door to the point of making his paws bleed....and we had only been gone 8 hours.

Other than the anxiety, Claude is a loving, gentle cat. He gets along great with the other animals in the house and even will play with the Chinchillas when they are allowed to run around the Den. He sleeps at the foot of our bed with the other cat and has shown absolute indifference when meeting other animals. He's not bad....just sick.



My wife just returned home and burst into tears when I told her that he peed again. She cried that she's so tired of checking every corner, exiling guests from our house because we are embarrassed by the smell, and the effort of dealing with Claude's condition that is so seemingly impossible to troubleshoot and correct.

We love him dearly and the thought of putting him to sleep cripples us both with sadness. But if he is suffering, even if it is something in his head and not his body, then its our duty to not pass this problem off to someone else, and instead take ownership of the second guessing that may come if we have to choose such a terrible option.

One last thing: If you are going to post in here, please be sensitive to our situation and the situation of others that have been in our shoes. The last thing I'm interested in is a troll of a post judging me and my family for considering all available options. This topic is a polarizing one and unless you've been in a similar circumstance and environment, you have no idea how it feels to stare your values in the face and realize that sometimes the right choice isn't necessarily always the one that comes free of guilt.

Thanks in advance to anyone who has the mental fortitude to read through this long post. I appreciate your concern for our problem, and any constructive insight you may provide will go a long way in helping our situation.
 

furbum

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First Claude needs to be retrained to use the box. Lock him in a separate, easy to clean room (like the bathroom) with a box, bed, water/food, and some toys until he is consistently using the box again.

Also, he was probably separated from his mom too early in life and hence the baby tendencies. A female cat might do the trick (he is neutered, right?), particularly one that was recently separated from her litter and misses being a mom.. but I am not certain. She might not let him suckle off her, and then maybe he would get the point if he learns it from another cat. Not sure though. I'm no expert.. just trying to be helpful.

I know what it's like to clean up cat pee all the time and about the smell and finding it everywhere, and every single day, sometimes multiple times a day. It is depressing and feels like it is not a life worth living...It consumes you.. That is why whenever it happens with one of my cats she immediately goes into 5 day quarantine. This is usually sufficient to solve the problem for at least half a year. Also the root of her problem is chronic UTIs. You need to bring in a urine sample to the vet to have your kitty checked for this (the easiest way to get one is to place a small tin under kitty while he is peeing, he won't even notice if you are good..). If it is a UTI (much more serious for male kitties and needs to be dealt with asap) then it would help to water down his food so the chrystals can pass..

I assume Claude has been to the vet for the peeing issue?

Also you need to figure out his litter preference. Sometimes cats just tolerate the litter we provide while they are healthy.. (Oh and never rub his nose in the pee that just makes things worse and makes him fear you...). I would highly recommend a kitten litter that is formulated to attract the kitten to the box.. You can try different types if you are not sure, placed in different boxes in a small room and he will eventually have to decide..

Well, best of luck. I have always feared being in a situation like this that never gets better (fortunately 5 day quarantine always works for me). I guess if I were in a situation that didn't have any other options I would just get diapers for the cat..
 

farleyv

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but just some support. The cats can sure turn our lives upside down. I will ponder for a while, and may come up with some suggestions.... meanwhile. ps one other way to get a urine sample is to fill litter box with shredded plastic. It won't soak up any liquid.
 

yosemite

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Wow! You certainly are patient.

First question and I'm going to assume it's a yes, has he been checked for a urinary tract infection?

How many litter boxes do you have for how many cats? The general rule of thumb is 1 per cat plus an extra. Some cats don't like to pee and poo in the same box and some don't like to share.

Have you tried Cat Attract litter? Have you changed their litter recently?

Did he have the peeing outside the box problem before you got the other cat(s)? He could be one of those animals that needs to be an only animal.

Have you used a good enzyme cleaner on the areas where he pee'd inappropriately? Even if we can't smell the urine, they can and will go back to the same places.

There are some other long term members here that have more experience and likely some good advice so just be patient for them to come online.
 

momofmany

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I'll try to help with the urinary issues. A few questions for you: what do you use to clean up the spots where he pees inappropriately, what brand of litter do you use, what style of litter boxes, how often do you completely clean them, and how many do you have?

For cleaning spots: If you are not using a GOOD enzymatic cleaner, you will not get rid of the smell. Cat's noses are so much more sensitive than ours, and if you do not neutralize the smell, they will return to that spot over and over again. I have 10 cats and some of them have various health issues, and have survived "pee wars" between them. The best product that I've found to neutralize urine spots is Nok-Out. http://www.nokout.com/ You won't find it in a store and it is pricey, but the fact that I can take out the odors is worth every penny. I buy the 2 gallon jug and I use it liberally when I need it.

For litter: The rule of thumb is 1 box per cat plus an extra (with 2 cats you need 3 boxes). After years of trial and error in my house, I found that the most used boxes are open on top, and extra large. I use oversize Sterilite bins. They are cheaper than litter boxes you buy at a pet store and a lot bigger. I have the boxes throughout the house, and at least 1 box on every level of the house. Lastly, the absolute best litter out there to return a cat to the box is Cat Attract. One of my cats was a sink pee-er for many years (it could have been a lot worse). When I switched over to use Cat Attract, he now uses the box 100% of the time. In fact, I haven't had a pee war in my house since I started to use it. It cost more than most litters, but compare the price of that to the cost of replacing carpet, furniture, and the embarrassment of having company visit. The litter is scooped daily, and the boxes entirely swapped out every 2 weeks. A plastic box will retain urine smell which can make them less attractive to a cat. Because Sterilite bins are so cheap, I have a 2 sets of boxes and bleach out the used box when I change them out.

Knock on wood, I've never had a cat with separation anxiety, but have had dogs with that problem. I suspect that having a solid daily routine would help. I don't know your lifestyle so have no idea if you can do that. Cats LOVE routine and even if you do nothing but feed at the same time, fill their water bowls at the same time, play with them at the same time, give them lap time at the same time each day, it will help him to understand that you will always be there for him.

I actually disagree with your approach to covering the windows to prevent stimulation. The more stimulation they have, the more they seem to thrive in an environment, as it keeps them occupied and not brooding about their condition. Tall cat condos are absolutely great, particularly if placed by a window where they can see the outdoor world. I have one in my kitchen by the windows that overlook bird feeders, and I always find cats on that tree watching the birds.

And btw - Feliway is supposed to be effective for about 70% of cats. You may just have one where it doesn't work. I have a couple of cats like that.

I hope this helps. Don't give up yet.
 

zuma-xo

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I have two 3-4 week old kittens at home right now who do not have a mom, so I am following your story. I fear these kittens will have similar problems because they HATE being alone and they won't stop suckling.

Have you tried something like you'd use for kittens to sooth them? Maybe a warm stuffed animal or a ticking clock? I am not sure if it would really help an adult cat, but I hear it helps kittens so if he has kitten issues, this may help?

If I think of anything else, I will let you know! Keep up the good work and thank you for your patience.
 
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catsandchins

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Thanks for all the wonderful contributions! Here's some responses to the questions and comments:

1. We've been through the litter retaining twice. When we quarantine him, he claws at the door until his paws are bloody. Probably not a good idea to try again


2. We have had hundreds of dollars in tests done. Definitely not a urinary tract issue. If I'm not mistaken, we've left him at the vet for a sample, and also withdrawn one from the bladder with a syringe.

3. We have tried Cat Attract litter and a host of others in multiple boxes throughout the house. We can get him to zero in on one litter box using the herbs, but the accidents still happen.

We've also tried litter boxes of various sizes and abilities (i.e. mechanical boxes).

4. We use Anti-Icky-Poo and its amazing. He has definitely stopped visiting the same locations, but the accidents still occur during his "infancy" regressions.

5. Spraying or Peeing: Its REALLY tough to tell. Its not apparently spraying, but sometimes he's close enough to the wall that its a vertical "attack" rather than the usual number 1.

6. This has been going on since before we got the second cat.

If this was just a bathroom issue I think we could go through the routine ad nauseam until we have 87 litter boxes in the house and barely any place for us.

The bigger problem is the incessant licking until her hurts himself. We've opted for seeking a pharmacological solution, but as I mentioned Prozac doesn't seem to be working.

We're really concerned that this speaks more to the underlying issue as opposed to the more common bathroom issue.
 

darlili

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Has your vet been able to consult with other vets about other pharmacological approaches beyond the current med? - maybe even some vet schools? I believe both Tufts and Cornell run services to consult with vets via fax and phone regarding particularly trying issues. This must be driving the vet crazy as well, because anyone can see the love you and your wife have, and the concern you have for Claude's well-being and quality of life.

I can't see that you've missed any of the usual approaches - and the destructive self-licking is sending up a huge flag to me as well.
 
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catsandchins

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Originally Posted by darlili

Has your vet been able to consult with other vets about other pharmacological approaches beyond the current med? - maybe even some vet schools? I believe both Tufts and Cornell run services to consult with vets via fax and phone regarding particularly trying issues. This must be driving the vet crazy as well, because anyone can see the love you and your wife have, and the concern you have for Claude's well-being and quality of life.

I can't see that you've missed any of the usual approaches - and the destructive self-licking is sending up a huge flag to me as well.
I will absolutely call the vet first thing Monday and ask them to do this. Thanks for the tip!
 

darlili

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Here's a link I found for Cornell

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/camuti.htm

if you'd like to look and see if it might be something you and your vet would be interested in, and if the fees are ok with you. So much is happening in animal care these days, it's got to be hard for vets to keep up with every new option out there. I mean, it's not that we may doubt our vets' capabilities, but if there are other resources to draw on, we'd all be grateful.

Oh, here's a link for Tufts behavioral consultation. This one looks like it costs more, but may be worth it.

http://www.tufts.edu/vet/petfax/

I subscribe to the newsletters from each school, and it's both heartbreaking sometimes to read of problems brought to both schools, and inspiring when they've been able to help. Heck, it could be your vet has already covered all the bases with everyone he can think of, but I guess it might not hurt to ask if they've considered these resources, if it's ok with you.

Good luck, and prayers for all of you.
 

momofmany

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Originally Posted by CatsAndChins

3. We have tried Cat Attract litter and a host of others in multiple boxes throughout the house. We can get him to zero in on one litter box using the herbs, but the accidents still happen.
If you are talking about the Cat Attract additive, which looks like herbs, that is not the kind I meant. I still had litter box issues with that one. I use the full strength litter.
 

breellablue

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I had a litter of kittens who were separated from their mom young, and rejected by the foster queen who would suck on each other (legs, paws, ears, private areas!). If they were close to me when they did it I would flick their ears. Every time I saw it I would flick at their ears, everyone involved.

as for the obsessive grooming, I have a female cat who does that, though thankfully only to the point of baldness, not bleeding. I'm pretty sure it's a stress response since she's anal in the head.

As for the litterbox messing around, I wish I could tell you. In my case I know its because of the kittens upstairs, and downstairs it's because I have a waterleak and the cats like to poop and pee close to the water.
 

katkisses

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I am going to go way off base with this.

Do you use flea meds? Which ones? If you are not using any he may have a flea allergy & it causes him to scratch until he bleeds. I have a cat with flea allergies, if I am late putting Advantage on her she will start getting bald spots.

Also it may be a food allergy causing the sores.

When he suckles, what is you/your wifes first response? Never, ever ever laugh, pet, or even pay attention to negative behaivors. Redirect and ignore. What is is favorite thing ever? Food? A certain toy? Whatver it is, use it to redirect him when he suckles. Toys I would reccomend would be real fur mice, wool mice, Da Bird, or a laser light.

Remember, any attention is still attention, even if it's negative attention.

Litter box issues... Have you tried adding some dirt/sand to the litter boxes? It's natural instinct for them to use dirt/sand... there is no kitty litter in the wild. Have you tried regualr non clumping litter? Unscented? Covered boxes? Different lacations of the boxes? Maybe he just doesn't like whatever room you use for littler boxes.

Does he pee in the same spots over and over? If so clean with an enzyme cleaner & put boxes where he goes.

Try playing with him every day for at least 30 mins, an hour would be better. It sounds like he may be doing all of this just for the (negative) attention. Play with him with a wand toy or laser light.

Try finding time in every day to just sit with him, maybe while you are watching tv, just to pet him and love on him.

Get some Soft Paws and try shutting in the bathroom again. IGNORE the scratching on the door, and meowing... talking to him or messing with him in any way will enfoce his scratching/meowing. He does it for attention... and when you give him (negative) attention he wins, and will keep doing it since he gets what he wants.

Have you changed his food reccently (before he started this)?

I hope some of this helps, keep us informed on any progress (or lack of)

good luck!
 

otto

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Hi I am sorry you are having these problems with your beloved Claude. Coming from a pet store, Claude may be so inbred that his problems will never be solved.

Ask your vet about switching Claude to amitryptiline, (generic Elavil) it has been used more effectively in cats than prozac.

Have you ever used Rescue Remedy? Keep the felwiay plug ins going, they may be helping more than you realize.

I understand your concerns. I hope some of the excellent suggestions already given are things you haven't tried yet, and can try.

If, after all is said and done, you have to opt for euthanization, no one has the right to judge you. Rehoming is not an answer, and Claude's quality of life has to be first consideration.

Bless you for caring and trying. Please keep us updated.
 

otto

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What a neat thing! I never knew there was something like that, thanks for the link! I know lots of people who rescue kittens who could put something like that to use.

I've always advised a hot water bottle or microwaved rice bag wrapped in fleece, and a wind up (ticking) clock. But having it ready made is even better!
 

darlili

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Funny, I woke up thinking about Claude and wondering if a pet dermatologist had seen him - don't know where you live or if you have access to such specialists, but Lord knows ringworm or a more rarified allergy could make the kitty crazy with the scratching.

Again, best wishes for finding a course of treatment that will work for you all - Claude was blessed in finding you - whatever happens, a cat could not have been more loved that Claude has with your family.
 
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catsandchins

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THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!

I'm absolutely thrilled to see so many more options that I wasn't aware of before. I'm going to speak with our vet Monday and see if we can't get her pointed to this thread for some more information.

We changed his food recently to something called "Limited Ingedient" (my wife just said) to try and see if it was a food allergy.

We don't use any flea medication on him. He's never displayed any sign of flea infestation...its just those back legs that he's going off on.

We're going to have to get more aggressive in the redirect and ignore pyschology. We've maintained it for weeks at a time but the war of attrition takes its toll on us in the long term.

I'll be ordering that stuffed animal and seeing if that helps at all. We're also going to inquire about that medication and see if it helps. If Prozac has proven useless, there is no point in keeping it up.

Thanks again, I'll keep you all posted as well!
 

sarahp

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Anti-Icky-Poo is great stuff, keep on using that


I would recommend the 66 qt clear Sterilite tubs too, and keep using the Cat Attract litter - as Amy said, the litter itself, not just the herbs you put in the litter. Once you've done that - don't change it! Keep the litter boxes and litter, and keep it constant.

Where is he normally peeing? Is he doing it under things? In corners? On straight walls? Always in the bedroom? Near things that smell like you? On soft things?

You can also get Feliway spray, and spray the areas he's peeing if it's somewhere constant. Or spray a towel and leave the towels in areas that he's spraying.

Definitely do not rub his nose in it, that will not help him learn anything, just cause undue stress. Leaving him at a cat hotel would not help either, it's also likely to cause him more stress - cats aren't teenagers
 
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