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Doll faced Persians?

post #1 of 32
8/15/09 at 6:21pm
Thread Starter 
Is there such a thing? There are so many people out there breeding these and they don't even look like Persians. They have slightly flat faces and some not even that.
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post #2 of 32
8/15/09 at 6:43pm
"Doll Faced" seems to be the term used to describe pedigreed Persians that do not fit any reputable association's current Persian standards for competition. Some are the result of legitimate Persian breeding programs. The fact of the matter is that the term "Doll Faced" is commonly used as a marketing term to persuade kitten buyers to purchase a cat that is bred outside of the show standard. Some claim to purposefully breed for the trait, but MNSHO is that those breeders don't have access to better cats.

Breeders of these cats could attempt to establish the Doll Faced Persian as a breed in its own right. As of now, they are simply pet quality Persians, and should be priced respectively.
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post #3 of 32
8/16/09 at 4:53am
If you read the standards in all the major associations, the so called "doll-faced" would not fit the standard and would not even get championship in the rings. The judges would disqualify it for competition.

If going by the standard, they are PET quality Persians. They could be shown in the HHP classes if you want. Some people don't like the current flat-faces of a show quality Persian and so just breed the pet quality ones trying to say they are better, etc.

IMO they are breeding pet Persians just to say its a purebred one. If you notice on any website of doll-faced Persians, there are no titles, no showing - but they sometimes "claim" the cats have champions in the background (which may be true) - doesn't make them top quality cats.

I feel that if you are gonna breed pedigree cats - you should be breeding to the current written standard, show your cats, test your cats and breed the best to the best. If you are not doing this, then you are just creating more pet kittens that stand a good chance of ending up in shelters.
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post #4 of 32
8/16/09 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
I feel that if you are gonna breed pedigree cats - you should be breeding to the current written standard, show your cats, test your cats and breed the best to the best. If you are not doing this, then you are just creating more pet kittens that stand a good chance of ending up in shelters.
Normally I'd agree completely with this, but in this case, I view the so called doll face as just as important to the fancy as Traditional Siamese (now called Thai Cats), therefore, the breeders of Doll Face should actually be pushing for acceptance under a different breed name.
The 'doll face' looks like persians looked many years ago.
In the case of the Persians though, the standard never changed, just that cats bred now more closely resemble the standard as originally written.
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post #5 of 32
8/16/09 at 11:39am
We have 3 doll face Persians which are all registered as a pure bred Persian. I personally do not like the traditionally Persians with their flat faces. They do have a lot of health problems due to it which requires constant cleaning of the eyes.

They are not show quality, but are pet quality Persians. Their personalities are just as personable and lovable as the traditional Persian. It just depends on your preference.
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post #6 of 32
8/16/09 at 11:47am
I've said this before but I'm gonna say it again. I don't understand why people breed doll face persians. There is almost identical breed that excists and has a championship status: British Longhair. Why not breed them instead, they are supposed to look like that anyway unlike Persians? They share same ancestors, their personalities are very similar.. Or is it just the word 'Persian' what they want?
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post #7 of 32
8/16/09 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernGlow View Post
I've said this before but I'm gonna say it again. I don't understand why people breed doll face persians. There is almost identical breed that excists and has a championship status: British Longhair. Why not breed them instead, they are supposed to look like that anyway unlike Persians? They share same ancestors, their personalities are very similar.. Or is it just the word 'Persian' what they want?
Every one has a preference of what they like. It may well be that is what they want and not some other breed.
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post #8 of 32
8/16/09 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlyn View Post
Normally I'd agree completely with this, but in this case, I view the so called doll face as just as important to the fancy as Traditional Siamese (now called Thai Cats), therefore, the breeders of Doll Face should actually be pushing for acceptance under a different breed name.
The 'doll face' looks like persians looked many years ago.
In the case of the Persians though, the standard never changed, just that cats bred now more closely resemble the standard as originally written.
I disagree. The doll faced Persian is not just as important to the fancy as the Traditional Siamese for one very big reason. So far the breeders of doll faced Persian cats have not made any movements to seek acceptance by a reputable association. They do not support clubs with their entries and do not encourage new breeders and exhibitors. How does this help the fancy? They create pretty pets, which is very different from contributing positively to the fancy.

Now, my opinion would change dramatically if breeders of doll faced Persians were to seek acceptance as a new breed, but that would require a number of breeders to come together and not only write a standard but show judges that they adhere to it by bringing their cats to shows. Breeders of Thai cats have already run the hard yards and proven they have the tenacity to develop a standard and adhere to it. Don't put the doll faced Persian breeders on their level.
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post #9 of 32
8/16/09 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlyn View Post
Normally I'd agree completely with this, but in this case, I view the so called doll face as just as important to the fancy as Traditional Siamese (now called Thai Cats), therefore, the breeders of Doll Face should actually be pushing for acceptance under a different breed name.
The 'doll face' looks like persians looked many years ago.
In the case of the Persians though, the standard never changed, just that cats bred now more closely resemble the standard as originally written.
I was trying to avoid this thread but that wasn't too successful.

I've said on this forum many times that doll face Persians are NOT like the Persians from many years ago.

The Persians from many years ago were bred to have gutters in their face, overbites, jaw problems, sunken in eyes. That statement is a big swear word to me.

Unless you have personally been involved in Persian breeding/history it is very hard to make a statement like that.
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post #10 of 32
8/16/09 at 2:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess15 View Post
We have 3 doll face Persians which are all registered as a pure bred Persian. I personally do not like the traditionally Persians with their flat faces. They do have a lot of health problems due to it which requires constant cleaning of the eyes.

They are not show quality, but are pet quality Persians. Their personalities are just as personable and lovable as the traditional Persian. It just depends on your preference.
I searched up our photos and looked at your Black bicolour boy Tedi. He's just a normal persian, nothing doll face about him!!

And as for the health problems argument!

Also
Quote:
His hair was too long and it just wasn't healthy for him
All Persians have long fur (well should have...) so maybe they aren't the breed for you?
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post #11 of 32
8/16/09 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMYSCRAZY View Post
Is there such a thing? There are so many people out there breeding these and they don't even look like Persians. They have slightly flat faces and some not even that.

And since I am here now no there is NO such thing as a doll faced Persian. Long nosed, pet quality - yes!
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post #12 of 32
8/16/09 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess15 View Post
So I got my order from Plain Brown Tabby yesterday and took some pictures. I had the most success with the banana and the feather dancer. Not so much with the kitty lure and crinkle ball, but you never know what they will like until you try it out.
Here are some pictures of them having fun and I get to introduce the rest of our family.

Lexi with the banana...


and the feather dancer


Tedi with the banana (he really loves that banana!)




Maya is the one that loves to be brushed and will run after you and smack you in the back of the leg if you stop brushing her...she wasn't in a playful mood at the time


Luna loves shoes...


and the banana...
Does your last girl always have her tongue out??
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post #13 of 32
8/16/09 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess15 View Post
We have 3 doll face Persians which are all registered as a pure bred Persian. I personally do not like the traditionally Persians with their flat faces. They do have a lot of health problems due to it which requires constant cleaning of the eyes.

They are not show quality, but are pet quality Persians. Their personalities are just as personable and lovable as the traditional Persian. It just depends on your preference.
TEdi and Luna look like regular persians to me. One of the others has way too long of a snout, in my opinion, to even be a "doll face". From my understanding of the history of Persians.... the "Traditional" or old Persian's from Iran (Persia) were more similar to the "doll faced" Persian. But even that is up for debate. Of course the doll face kitties can be just as personable and are just as lovable. They just don't meet the "Standard" for cat fancier organizations.

The eye issue isn't really a "health issue" in itself. It doesn't cause any health issue demanding veternary care. In fact not every flat faced persian even has eye drainage (but many do). But seriously! How could you NOT love these faces?? I know Sam loves them!

Bella


Maxx


Both of these kitties fit the standard and are show quality. Their little faces are so darn cute and expressive! I just can't help but kiss them! Neither of these cats have health issues. For that matter, neither does Peaches but I'm really not sure if she is a pure breed. She does have more of a doll face.
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post #14 of 32
8/16/09 at 6:21pm
Just another thought... I think the term "doll face" is extremely over used. There are legitimate breeders but doll face also seems to be the favorite term of many shelters of any long haired cat. Kinda irks me.
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post #15 of 32
8/16/09 at 6:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats View Post
I searched up our photos and looked at your Black bicolour boy Tedi. He's just a normal persian, nothing doll face about him!!

And as for the health problems argument!

Also

All Persians have long fur (well should have...) so maybe they aren't the breed for you?
All purebred cats will have more health problems than a regular stray cat. It is in their genetics. I know this from Duchess who had problems with her eyes and it was only in her color of being a Persian. Tedi has a heart mumur which I did not know male persian cats will often develop in their late years.
My mom started with the Persians. Tedi would mat up very often, no matter how much I tried to keep up with him. Now that he is 16 - he does have a hard time grooming himself and so I shave him. He does have more energy when this is done. I have two short hair cats already and I am not going to get rid of my Persians just because of the long hair. I don't work that way. They are part of the family.

We were always told that our cats were doll face Persians which is the reason why we didn't show. It is all an opinion on what you think they are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats View Post
Does your last girl always have her tongue out??
No, I just caught her doing that in the picture.
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post #16 of 32
8/16/09 at 6:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjazz2u View Post
TEdi and Luna look like regular persians to me. One of the others has way too long of a snout, in my opinion, to even be a "doll face". From my understanding of the history of Persians.... the "Traditional" or old Persian's from Iran (Persia) were more similar to the "doll faced" Persian. But even that is up for debate. Of course the doll face kitties can be just as personable and are just as lovable. They just don't meet the "Standard" for cat fancier organizations.

The eye issue isn't really a "health issue" in itself. It doesn't cause any health issue demanding veternary care. In fact not every flat faced persian even has eye drainage (but many do). But seriously! How could you NOT love these faces?? I know Sam loves them!

Bella


Maxx


Both of these kitties fit the standard and are show quality. Their little faces are so darn cute and expressive! I just can't help but kiss them! Neither of these cats have health issues. For that matter, neither does Peaches but I'm really not sure if she is a pure breed. She does have more of a doll face.
I just know they look much different than the regular Persian. Mine look like regular cats. They do not have the drastic pushed in passes that I normally see.

Luna's eyes water horribly to the point that she constantly has pus coming out. I can clean it and in a few hours it is back. I put a cream in that helps, but it always comes back. Hers are the worst and I'm not sure why.

Your Maxx looks so much like my Tedi!
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post #17 of 32
8/16/09 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess15 View Post
All purebred cats will have more health problems than a regular stray cat. It is in their genetics. I know this from Duchess who had problems with her eyes and it was only in her color of being a Persian.
I strongly dissagree with this. You can't say "All purebred cats will have more health problems then a stray." Well... ok you can but you wouldn't be correct. Just because Duchess had health problems and as I said earlier,I don't call runny eyes a health problem. It's not something that requires treatment by a doctor. Yes, some purebred cats will have health problems. But I tend to think a lot of it depends on the breeder being reputable and taking care with their breeding program. My cats are healthy as horses! So the statement that all purebred cats have health issues doesn't fly! Yet, I've had mixed breeds in the past that had all kinds of kidney problems, diabetes, heart murmurs etc.
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post #18 of 32
8/16/09 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess15 View Post

Your Maxx looks so much like my Tedi!
He's just a regular, show quality, registered Persian! In fact he's close to being a Grand!
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post #19 of 32
8/16/09 at 7:01pm
I also disagree with the "all purebred have more health problems then strays".

I've had both pedigree and non-pedigree cats over the years. All have had the same good care. My first cat was a mixed breed - he died of cancer at only age 13. My two purebred Rexes were 15 1/2 and 18 yrs old when they died (one of heart attack, one just to old age).

Reputable breeders do test their cats for genetic problems and don't breed cats with problems - with mixes you have NO clue to the backgrounds of the cats or what they may have. Its a 50/50 gamble in whether a stray will live to 10 yrs old or 20 yrs old - same as for any pedigree cat.
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post #20 of 32
8/16/09 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess15 View Post
All purebred cats will have more health problems than a regular stray cat. It is in their genetics. I know this from Duchess who had problems with her eyes and it was only in her color of being a Persian. Tedi has a heart mumur which I did not know male persian cats will often develop in their late years.
My mom started with the Persians. Tedi would mat up very often, no matter how much I tried to keep up with him. Now that he is 16 - he does have a hard time grooming himself and so I shave him. He does have more energy when this is done. I have two short hair cats already and I am not going to get rid of my Persians just because of the long hair. I don't work that way. They are part of the family.

We were always told that our cats were doll face Persians which is the reason why we didn't show. It is all an opinion on what you think they are.




No, I just caught her doing that in the picture.
Please just because you have had certain experiences with pedigree cats don't paint ALL the rest with the same brush.

At 16 MANY cats have health problems.

I don't agree with "It is all an opinion of what you think they are". If they have papers they are Persians, if they don't they are moggies, that's IMO. If they have two Persian (or 2 Exotic parents) they are Persians regardless if they have a snout or a ski slope nose whatever.

LOL and anybody who complains about wiping a Persian or EXO's eyes after they have got them obviousely hasn't done enough research on the breed. It's not a health problem however.
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post #21 of 32
8/17/09 at 12:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisCat View Post
As of now, they are simply pet quality Persians, and should be priced respectively.
Most breeders I know (variety of breeds) charge the same for pet or show neuters, yet I often see 'traditional' or doll face Persians advertised for twice (or more) the show quality Persian price.

I feel sorry for anyone conned into paying thousands for pet quality Persians. If you don't like the flat face there are other long haired breeds to choose from.
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post #22 of 32
8/17/09 at 1:06am
I have had mixed cats and some died very young so saying they live longer then pedigrees is not always true.
You can trace the lines in pedigrees and get rid of the bad lines.
Some sphynx carry HCM and they get scanned for that.
My oldest cat is Coco who had a seal point siamese mom.
She is mixed.
My aunts Pedigree Persian was 22 when she died.
People should not put down pedigree cats when they know nothing about them.
The breeders do a lot of testing to make the lines better.
The Doll Face breeders charge way more then the standard breeders do for a pet quality cat.
My Coco has health problems but it is because she is old.
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post #23 of 32
8/17/09 at 4:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess15 View Post
All purebred cats will have more health problems than a regular stray cat. It is in their genetics.
LMAO xDD That must be one of the things I've heard in a long time!
Now, let's turn the 'common sense' mode on, ok? So tell me, how many 'regular stray cats' do you know that have been tested for several deseases before it was mated with another cat? What was the result? How about the hereditary problems, where they checked as well?
Now compare them to a pedigreed cat.
You do know that if deseases etc. aren't looked for, you propably don't find them unless they are really obvious and in your face. Same goes with hereditary problems, if you don't know what's in the familylines, how do you breed them out/fix them? When health issues are on purpose looked for, of course you will find more of them than if you just ignore them. That's what breeding is about, producing healthy cats. You can't be sure if your cat is healthy if you don't know anything about it's lines/history.

Sorry if I'm not making any sense, it must be the language barrier..

I've only had pedigreed cats. The first one, Persian, was never sick. He died at the age of 19. My current cats (not Persians) have never been sick either, outcluding a urinary problem which was caused by bad food and stress before I got the cat.
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post #24 of 32
8/17/09 at 4:23am
BTW rather then add photos of my own cats to this thread you can now see them through my cat pages. See if you can pick out the doll face.
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post #25 of 32
8/17/09 at 9:40am
I can't find any doll face ones on your webpage - all I see are some lovely Persian/Exotics that fit the written standard but are not overly extreme
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post #26 of 32
8/17/09 at 2:13pm
Okay--here's another question that may deserve its own thread What is a Peke-faced Persian? Is this another gimmicky pet term (kind of like teacup Chihuahua ) or is this legit?
Regarding purebred vs. mutt re: health...I agree with those saying how can you KNOW if mutts are healthier if they are untested?? Same is true in dogs and I'll argue the point there as well. It is all in what genes you are working with...."mutt" cats and dogs are not immune to unhealthy genes just by virtue of being "mutts"!! If you have a healthy line of animals and you linebreed on those animals, you are duplicating those healthy genes (sophomorically speaking); if the gene for a given health problem isn't there..it is not going to pop up out of nowhere just due to a linebreeding! But I digress..as usual
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post #27 of 32
8/17/09 at 4:24pm
Okay. That may have been a dumb question. I think I've found the answer, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Peke-faced is simply what some people call the show standard Persians, as opposed to the other, so-called "doll" face. I guess neither one is a proper term because they are just Persians, period, some meeting the standard, others not. Am I right?
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post #28 of 32
8/17/09 at 4:42pm
Peke-faced was used for extreme cats back in the 70's when I first started showing.
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post #29 of 32
8/17/09 at 7:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allmycats View Post
I guess neither one is a proper term because they are just Persians, period, some meeting the standard, others not. Am I right?
I'd agree with this

Peke faced is a very outdated kitty and yes Martice you hit the nail on the head
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post #30 of 32
8/18/09 at 3:27am
I never hear Persian exhibitors use that term. I only ever hear the term "Peke faced" from those who criticize show quality Persians and wish to make a connection between Persians and Pekingese--usually in the context of making broad claims against the health of show quality Persians and extolling the superior health of their "doll faced" cats.
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