Cruel & unusual to treat - or euthanize?

white cat lover

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I am well aware this is a decision only I can make, and do hope this won't turn into a nasty thread.

I have a 16 year old kitty. She's lived outdoors her entire life, was (finally!) spayed when she was 12 years old. She has no desire to live indoors, I've tried to bring her in a few times. She's done well, but has developed clouding over one eye (thus rending her blind in that eye), and from what the vet can tell has lost *some* of her vision in her other eye. Hearing seems to be OK for an older kitty. Her teeth are rotten & need to come out. Her coat looks cuddy, but the fact that she's licking her coat with that nasty mouth isn't helping. She's lost some weight (but that can be tied in the trouble eating due to bad teeth). She's nowhere near as active as she used to be.

Purr-sonality - she's nasty, always ripping into the other cats. She's gotten worse in the past month or so. She loves to be petted, & still faithfully follows me about the yard.

I am faced with 2 options right now & am seeking opinions of several vets.

I can either euthanize or risk a dental. I would do bloodwork prior to a dental, and I did speak with someone at my vet's office about risks. I mean, she may perk right back up after a dental, she may die during surgery, or she may slowly go downhill post dental. Her last surgery, 4 years ago, was to repair a hernia & she barely made it. However, that vet isn't as good as the vet I currently use.

I cannot stand the thought of euthanizing her - I really can't. I mean, there isn't really a concrete reason to euthanize her.

I must also deal with the fact - is it fair to put her through another MN winter? She refuses to stay in the heated shop, I do now have a 6' x 12' enclosure attached to an un-heated shed....but will she be warm enough? Will she survive?

She is the dilute calico in front.







Last fall




Thoughts? Ideas? Anything to discuss with my vet?

I'm just questioning whether or not it's fair to put her under anesthesia & the pain of a full dental extraction, only to have her dead within 6 months. There's no way to know if that's the way it will work - but is it "the right thing to do" to spring for the dental?

On one hand, she's lived a very long life, but on the other hand, I can't cut it short simply because "she's old".
 

bookworm

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You don't ask an easy question, for sure. That's one that probably will require hindsight or the ability to fortell the future to know the answer. If she dies while under the anesthesia it will be as peaceful a passing as euthanasia, so that pain is yours, not hers.
If her teeth get worse and cause a fatal infection that would be worse for both of you. I think that depending on bloodwork if you can afford it I'd vote for the dental, it sounds like the lesser of two evils.
That's assuming that she will be able to remain an outdoor cat as her eyesight gets worse, and winter comes on. If she has to be made an indoor cat, ad doesn't adjust to it, then it's a matter of trading her quality of life for a little extra time.
Sorry, I think I just went in a circle here, and didn't come up with any sound advice.
 

carolina

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There isn't a clear answer on this one.... I guess the best is to do what is in your heart...
and
 

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It sounds like you have your own answer already--you don't want to put her to sleep. Are you able to give her pain medicine after dental surgery? Typically my cats have received Buprenex, which is a liquid that is squirted just inside the cheek, after surgeries to help with pain. Talk to the vet about the types of anesthetics they use. The safest route is to use an inhaled anesthetic, like isoflurane or sevoflurane, but you'll also want to discuss what was used last time when she didn't fair so well. I would suggest buying one or two heated cat beds or cat bed heaters that can be inserted into a cat bed or other cozy space--that way she has a way of getting warm in the winter if she chooses to go into the shed.
 

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Wow...definately not an easy decision...


Thinking about it, I would probably opt for the dental if you have the money. She looks like a tough old girl and would heal and adjust pretty quick. If it's truly her time, then I think I'd rather chance a peaceful passing under anaesthetic while the attempt was made to help her, than a decline due to bad teeth and a decreased appetite. As for the living outside in the winter...who can say if she'll come in of stay out. One thing animals have taught me is that they'll live thier lives on thier own terms, regardless of what we might want for them.

Like you said, I don't think I could justify euthanasia if I wasn't completely sure her quality of life was gone. Every time I've made that choice, it's been clear...if it's not clear, I don't think it's time to make it.

Sorry if this isn't any help. I definately don't envy you this decision.
 
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white cat lover

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They use Sevo, that much I do remember. They did say they'd only use an inhaled anesthetic due to her age. Pain meds wouldn't be a problem, and they'd do an anti-biotic injection for her.

What are other's experiences with older cats & dentals?

I've always been concerned about heated cat beds catching fire outside....I've used the self heating ones, but she'd be living with Mr. Whizzer who sprays those.
They will for sure have an insulated dog house with straw in it....but sometimes I feel like that isn't enough, given her age.

ETA: The dental will cost $200 - 250. I guess for me, money isn't an issue. I could use it to pay down debt, or I could use it for a dental (IMO the dental is way more worth it). I'm more than happy to pay that - I'm just terrified that I'll put her through the pain of the dental, and she'll be gone within weeks or I'll have to euthanize her anyways. I don't want her last days, weeks, whatever it is on earth, to be spent in pain due to a dental. That's what scares me the most.
 

cloud_shade

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Spot was my problem child. He had one dental back when my vet still used ketamine as the anesthetic. He had gone in primarily to treat an abscess, and they did a dental while he was under. He came through it a little wobbly for a day or two (from the anesthetic) but otherwise fine. He eventually succombed to heart disease, possibly aggravated by his thyroid condition.

Odo is my current oldster. He has had three dentals in the past three years. My vet is a little reluctant to do any more on him, simply because his teeth get so icky so fast--within three months she couldn't tell they had been cleaned at all. Each time, he was a bit groggy for a day and then a bit wide-eyed while on the pain medicine (he seems to have vision issues as well, even when not on medication). He had no problems eating afterward. He is a bit senile now and arthritic but had no issues related to the dental.

With the heated pet beds, I get one specifically made for cats. I have one, and I bought one for my mom's 16 year old cat. Both get used quite often. I think my mom might unplug hers during the day, but I leave mine on 24/7 when the temperature drops even a little. If I forget to unplug it, I'll still find Odo laying in it even when it's 75 to 80 degrees outside. Odo is indoor only, but he loves the heat from his bed. The beds don't warm up much--they are designed to heat gently to 102 degrees. If you are concerned about moisture from your spraying cat, you might be able to slip a puppy pad and a layer of foam between the cover and the heater. The one I use is made by K & H Pet Products (www.khmfg.com), and they make ones specifically for outdoor use as well. Alternately, there are microwaveable discs that don't require electricity--just make sure to follow any instructions concerning coverings to prevent them from being too hot for the cat.
 
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white cat lover

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Ketamine is never used on any of my animals, I made that abundantly clear to any vet I've used.

I never considered looking for a heated pet bed specifically for outdoor use!


I'm having one vet take a look at her tomorrow, and I'll call my vet's office again to bounce more questions/ideas off them. They are booked to the end of the month for dentals, but I pretty much have a standing appt for every Tuesday as I always have someone there.
We'll see when they can sneak her in - as if it's just extractions & inhalant anesthesia, they *should* be able to slip her into a surgery slot - rather than a dental slot.
 

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Nat, we've got two microwaveable discs. If you want them, they are yours. PM me with your address please.

Nat - is the new vet at the same practice? Are her records there? I think what I would do is consult with the new one - even if not at the same practice, come to think of it. Maybe you can get her record of the last surgery. He knows what he uses vs. what was used on her before. He knows what her level of suffering is (once you explain it). The guy (or woman) is at least compassionate? Cares about cats? Nat - they will help you make an informed decision.

I'm thinking if it were us, and the vet though there was a reasonable chance she'd make it through the surgery - we'd do it. MN winters are tough, and if she's suffering from her teeth - that sucks - that's all there is to it.

She's handling the enclosure well? If so, then you needn't worry so much about her vision. And just like with the ferals, put together some wood boxes with rather small entrance and exit holes and stuff 'em with hay. Or even ask around restaurants for those large styrofoam things (they pack meat or whatever in to keep it cold). Cut holes in those and stuff 'em with hay. The trick is having an entrance and an exit. The hay is easy to exchange weekly or every other week or whatever - and is a great insulator.

to you to help you make a decision you're happy with. And lots of
 

pookie-poo

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I'd opt for the dental also. It sounds like the teeth are the real issue, and you obviously feel that neither of you are ready for a planned Rainbow Bridge experience. I will keep you both in my thoughts and prayers...
 
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white cat lover

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The vet that spayed/did the hernia repair is not the vet I use now. I am going to see him tomorrow, to see what he thinks - and to get her records (he doesn't charge me exams & then I can get a weight & exam done now - he can also draw blood to be tested).

My vet looks at two things. First, I'm willing to do most anything for the cats. But second, he knows if she goes over the Rainbow Bridge, that frees up space for 2 more farm cats at my place. So I know that'll be in the back of his mind (as it is in mine - knowing if I do *have* to let her go - that means I can save others in her name).
 

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You know that you wouldn't feel comfortable trying and giving her a chance, so I'm sure you'll do your best. If she dies on the table, at least she won't suffer and you'll know you tried. Afterwards if she's in pain? You can't predict that, but it sounds like she'll be better off with it than without, and once again, from what I know about you, I think you'd prefer to know you gave it your best shot. Can you pill her to give her antibiotics/painkillers if needed?
 

ldg

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But Nat - he wouldn't recommend a dental thinking she'd pass on because of it just so you could have space for two more kitties - would he?
 

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I wouldn't hesitate to attempt to treat her if she were here.

I would insist (and I have personally) that each of these items is attended to. I believe I would have her on IV for a full second day post-op.

I would ensure that (most especially due to her age) that no form of Metacam is used. From my experience, post-op opioid injectible for pain and the application of a fentanyl pain patch worked perfectly. (If she stays in the extra day, I would have them treat pain by injection while she's there and the pain patch applied just before she is discharged.)

I think I might also be expecting a sweeter personality afterwards - here's hoping!
 
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Originally Posted by LDG

But Nat - he wouldn't recommend a dental thinking she'd pass on because of it just so you could have space for two more kitties - would he?
No - if he thought she wouldn't survive the surgery, he would just tell me to love her for all she's worth for whatever time she has left. He's not in it for the money, he gives me discounts when he can sneak them in (almost everywhere
).

I have had one vet tell me to just euthanize her, as she is old & has lived a full life. And that vet doesn't normally recommend euthanizing anyone. I was not impressed, and remember why I stopped using that vet. She was in a hurry & didn't want to talk to me, or bother with me.

I've bookmarked that link, blaise, and will talk to my vet about it. They use Metacam for pain meds.....so I'm not sure what I'll do there.

She's an easy cat to pill, liquids are harder, but can be done. She's very food motivated.
 

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Wow, this is an entirely personal decision that only you can make. You are the only one who knows how attached you are to her, and how attached she is to you and the other kitties.

You may remember that several months ago I tried to adopt a 16 yr. old white arthritic kitty whose owner had died. We had Ashley in our home for about 2 months before I made the decision to surrender her to the SPCA where I am sure she was euthanized. For me the decision was still difficult, but I wasn't bonded to Ashley, and she simply would not adjust in our home. I couldn't even touch her, and she wasn't going to be socialized no matter what I tried.

Your situation is different because you are bonded with her. I wish you the best, no matter what your decision.
 

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You certainly face a tough decision. I, too, think the dental would be the way I'd go, especially if she's healthy otherwise (heart strong, bloodwork good, no kidney issues, and etc). Is there a way you can make a makeshift "isolation room" for her in the enclosure for her to recuperate in for a few days after the treatment? Then, after she's up to par, you can release her back with the other kitties. Of course, you know you kitties, and know if this would work or not, but thought I'd throw that out there as a consideration.

I'm also wonder if some of her problems with the other catsare caused because her teeth are bothering her. (Just something to think about.)
 

breellablue

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It is a very hard, very personal decision. I must ask, was her hernia surgery trouble from the anesthesia? it has been my experience when animals, even humans, have past problems with anesthesia it can crop up later.

lots of for you! and
 
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