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Evolution/Creation - What's your stance? - Page 3

post #61 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
I don't think you can say it's the truth. You can say that you think it's the truth... To me, the word truth is more accurate than the word fact because a fact is constructed and accepted by people. The truth is objective.
Of course, Jesus would want everyone to say that its' the truth so that there can be as many converts as possible..but to me it just isn't realistic. What do you say to the buddhists or muslims? " sorry guys, but you're wrong??"
That objectivity is what I was referring to

A farmer that is absolutely certain that he saw space aliens riding his cattle in bovine races around the feed lot is telling the truth when he tells his neighbor about it...but as to it being factual. Uh, probably not.
post #62 of 84
Ok, I will admit, I haven't read all the posts but I'm jumping in anyway to avoid any controversy.

I believe in evolution...controlled by a higher power. I guess that would be theological evolution? I believe that things evolved gradually over billions of years but someone or something had a hand in it, and I'll tell you the reason why.

We can break everything down into atoms, molucules, sub-molucules, etc. We (or most) can accept the big bang theory where everything just came together and exploded, right? Well, what I want to know is where did those tiny little particles come from? What was the universe before that? Supposedly it was just a void, and all of a sudden these tiny little particles just "show up"? How can something just show up in a void? They had to be put there by someone or something...nothing doesn't make something.

Somebody posted here that life began because of alien influence...well, that raises the same questions. Where did THAT life begin?

When I was in junior high school I was lucky enough to be able to go to a few meetings with my grandfather who was president of the astronomy club here. There was one man that thought he was SO much smarter than everyone else because he had a "degree". He still couldn't answer these questions. He kept breaking it down to particle, then sub particle, etc. I just answered "and where did that come from"....he finally couldn't answer me anymore. (LOL, picture a 5 year old asking "why" to every answer...but I knew what I was doing...) He just walked away after he was stumpted. My GF was SO proud! LOL.

Anyway, that is what I believe.
post #63 of 84
calico, I believe you and I are in agreement! We may be the only two that see it the same way!
post #64 of 84
calico2222- from what you said I think your beliefs coincide with either materialistic evolution or theistic evolution but on here the descriptions are kind of vague...I looked at the site that Grogs provided and here is what materialistic evolution is broken down to:

Quote:
Methodological Materialistic Evolution

Materialistic Evolution differs from Theistic Evolution in saying that God does not actively interfere with evolution. It is not necessarily atheistic, though; many Materialistic Evolutionists believe that God created evolution, for example. Materialistic evolution may be divided into methodological and philosophical materialism. Methodological materialism limits itself to describing the natural world with natural causes; it says nothing at all about the supernatural, neither affirming nor denying its existence or its role in life.

* Gould, Stephen J., Rock of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life (Ballantine Publishing Group, NY, 1999)


Philosophical Materialistic Evolution

Philosophical materialism says that the supernatural does not exist. It says that not only is evolution a natural process, but so is everything else.

* Richard Dawkins

* William Provine
So, if you believe god created evolution, the big bang, i.e god set the stage for everything and it now takes its course -you believe in methological evolution,
If you believe that god actively interferes with evolution then it's theistic evolution...

Oh and I agree with you - science doesn't know where the first particle came from or the first living organism. The only difference in our opinions is that I just believe that we don't know, i don't believe that whatever we don't know about is god's work.
post #65 of 84
It is impossible for us mere humans, with our earthly experiences that all have beginnings and endings, to believe in anything infinite.

How big is the universe? Does it have a beginning or an ending? Was there a beginning to time? If there is a God, where did he come from? Our human logic tells us that everything has edges, a beginning and an ending, so we are looking for those edges beyond our planet.
post #66 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post

So, if you believe god created evolution, the big bang, i.e god set the stage for everything and it now takes its course -you believe in methological evolution,
If you believe that god actively interferes with evolution then it's theistic evolution...
The I guess it's theistic evolution, because I don't believe the higher power just put everything in a beaker and just sat back to see what happened. I still belive he/she/it still had some control over what happened.

Dusty's Mom, those are the questions that could keep me up at night. I remember when I was a child and mom tried to explain "infinity" to me. She used a penny as an example. Can you find where the side was started and where it stopped. No. It is an unreal concept for the human brain because we know there is a begining, a middle and an end to our lives and to everything else. We are three dimentional creatures, because that is our world. To ask where things come from is looking for answers from the 4th dimention, which would be spiritial. That is where faith comes in.
post #67 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
The I guess it's theistic evolution, because I don't believe the higher power just put everything in a beaker and just sat back to see what happened. I still belive he/she/it still had some control over what happened.

Dusty's Mom, those are the questions that could keep me up at night. I remember when I was a child and mom tried to explain "infinity" to me. She used a penny as an example. Can you find where the side was started and where it stopped. No. It is an unreal concept for the human brain because we know there is a begining, a middle and an end to our lives and to everything else. We are three dimentional creatures, because that is our world. To ask where things come from is looking for answers from the 4th dimention, which would be spiritial. That is where faith comes in.


Yep! When you look at the enormity of the universe, you realize that earth is just a tiny speck of dust among the huge vastness, and we humans are just a tiny microbe of insignificance overall. We don't have the intelligence or the capacity to design the complex interactions that co-exist to keep our species alive. That is where faith comes in. It's obvious to me that we tiny human microbes aren't the center of the universe, and the world does not revolve around us.

I think that many people without faith in a higher power believe that the universe exists solely for us, and that we silly little human creatures have the ability to change destiny by how often we turn on our air conditioner, or drive our car. This is not to minimize recycling or conservation. We should all be good stewards of our environment and planet to the best of our practical ability. Nothing makes me more furious that to see parks and public places strewn with litter from lazy SOBs who can't walk 20 paces to a trash can! But to suggest that all our modern conveniences are going to destroy our earth, gives way too much power to the human species, when it's been proven that our planet goes through environmental and climatic cycles from dry to wet and from hot to cold.

I believe in evolution as an ongoing process of creation, orchestrated and designed by a Higher Power. And because I believe in evolution, I also believe some species are not destined to survive. To try to save every little bug on the endangered species list is foolish. If it is meant to survive, it will adapt to its changing environment. If not, then perhaps it has outlived its usefulness in the balance of nature.

~Leslie~
post #68 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty's Mom View Post


Yep! When you look at the enormity of the universe, you realize that earth is just a tiny speck of dust among the huge vastness, and we humans are just a tiny microbe of insignificance overall. We don't have the intelligence or the capacity to design the complex interactions that co-exist to keep our species alive. That is where faith comes in. It's obvious to me that we tiny human microbes aren't the center of the universe, and the world does not revolve around us.

I think that many people without faith in a higher power believe that the universe exists solely for us, and that we silly little human creatures have the ability to change destiny by how often we turn on our air conditioner, or drive our car.
This is not to minimize recycling or conservation. We should all be good stewards of our environment and planet to the best of our practical ability. Nothing makes me more furious that to see parks and public places strewn with litter from lazy SOBs who can't walk 20 paces to a trash can! But to suggest that all our modern conveniences are going to destroy our earth, gives way too much power to the human species, when it's been proven that our planet goes through environmental and climatic cycles from dry to wet and from hot to cold.

I believe in evolution as an ongoing process of creation, orchestrated and designed by a Higher Power. And because I believe in evolution, I also believe some species are not destined to survive. To try to save every little bug on the endangered species list is foolish. If it is meant to survive, it will adapt to its changing environment. If not, then perhaps it has outlived its usefulness in the balance of nature.

~Leslie~
Funny how it seems the opposite to me. Wasn't it the catholic church that tried to insist during the Renaissance that the earth is the center of the universe and that heliocentrism is a heretical belief? I think you are one of the few religious people who sees things this way. I am not trying to say that there are still people who think the earth is the center of the universe, but I think a lot of religious people take it to mean that way at least figuratively since it has been accepted that it isn't this way physically- seeing it as humans' actions are the sole most important part of life in this world. If it wasn't so then people would have no motivation to be good..
I'm sure many people think that If we were just a spec of dust, then Jesus wouldn't have come to save us ...If he died for us we must be pretty important and of course all christians say "Jesus loves you"....If what we do here on earth is so unimportant in the grand scheme then why would God and his son Jesus spend so much time with us? God sent us 10 commandments, all just to teach us how to be good, he created a flood to purge the world of bad people..that seems like an awful lot of attention which to me means that a lot of religious people DO think we are the center of the universe, figuratively speaking..
I mean in genesis it says god created man to look like him, that in itself is pretty flattering...
post #69 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Funny how it seems the opposite to me. Wasn't it the catholic church that tried to insist during the Renaissance that the earth is the center of the universe and that heliocentrism is a heretical belief? I think you are one of the few religious people who sees things this way. I am not trying to say that there are still people who think the earth is the center of the universe, but I think a lot of religious people take it to mean that way at least figuratively since it has been accepted that it isn't this way physically- seeing it as humans' actions are the sole most important part of life in this world. If it wasn't so then people would have no motivation to be good..
I'm sure many people think that If we were just a spec of dust, then Jesus wouldn't have come to save us ...If he died for us we must be pretty important and of course all christians say "Jesus loves you"....If what we do here on earth is so unimportant in the grand scheme then why would God and his son Jesus spend so much time with us? God sent us 10 commandments, all just to teach us how to be good, he created a flood to purge the world of bad people..that seems like an awful lot of attention which to me means that a lot of religious people DO think we are the center of the universe, figuratively speaking..
I mean in genesis it says god created man to look like him, that in itself is pretty flattering...
I think is important to clarify the difference between organized religion [which is man-made, IMO] and a belief in a higher power, which for me is a no-brainer, since there is not one human particle that can explain and understand how the universe and life on our little speck of dust came to be.

The oldest Christian religion, the Roman Catholic Church, has evolved in its teachings and practices over the years as an adaptation to scientific discovery, as well as some not-so-spiritual reasons like celibacy in the priesthood, relaxing dress code in church, meat on Fridays, etc. It wouldn't be surprising to me to see that at one time they believed the earth to be the center of the universe.

I consider myself to be spiritual, but not necessarily religious. I was raised an ELCA Lutheran, and as an adult converted to Catholicism, but have become more jaded when it comes to organized religion after seeing all the coverup in the sexual scandal involving priests, and the disgusting money-grabbing by televangelists, I came to the realization that organized religion is big business, and the purpose is to gather wealth and power, again IMHO.
post #70 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Funny how it seems the opposite to me. Wasn't it the catholic church that tried to insist during the Renaissance that the earth is the center of the universe and that heliocentrism is a heretical belief?
Why are you going back 500-700 years? We're talking about our opinions now. Yes, people did believe that, and people thought the earth was flat and long ago the Greeks believed that the sun was Apollo on a horse drawn chariot and Zues lived at the top of the mountain. I don't see the point you're trying to make, since she didn't say anything about organized religion.

I completely understand what she's saying. What I can't understand is people that can look at the beauty in this word and think it "just happened". I mean, the colors in fall, the birth of a baby, the colors of butterflies, the look on a kittens face when it's eyes finally focus and he tries to get those little legs under him, the blue sky during the day and the star filled sky at night....I know there are "scientific" explanations for everything but I don't see how someone could think this all just happened "randomly".
post #71 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
Why are you going back 500-700 years? We're talking about our opinions now. Yes, people did believe that, and people thought the earth was flat and long ago the Greeks believed that the sun was Apollo on a horse drawn chariot and Zues lived at the top of the mountain. I don't see the point you're trying to make, since she didn't say anything about organized religion.

I completely understand what she's saying. What I can't understand is people that can look at the beauty in this word and think it "just happened". I mean, the colors in fall, the birth of a baby, the colors of butterflies, the look on a kittens face when it's eyes finally focus and he tries to get those little legs under him, the blue sky during the day and the star filled sky at night....I know there are "scientific" explanations for everything but I don't see how someone could think this all just happened "randomly".
Exactly!
post #72 of 84
it could be random, it could be done by a higher power..I don't really care. I just don't believe in stories that try to convince me one way or the other. We don't know. I only consider believing in something if it is supported by evidence.
Dusty's mom - the fact that you're not talking about organized religion and that you are not religious but spiritual explains a lot...
calico- If you think the catholic church has evolved a lot since the middle ages, think again.
post #73 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
it could be random, it could be done by a higher power..I don't really care. I just don't believe in stories that try to convince me one way or the other. We don't know. I only consider believing in something if it is supported by evidence.
Dusty's mom - the fact that you're not talking about organized religion and that you are not religious but spiritual explains a lot...
calico- If you think the catholic church has evolved a lot since the middle ages, think again.
If you only believe in something if it is supported by evidence, that is your right. But, honestly...I feel sorry for you. To me, that takes the "magic" out of life, but that's just my opinion. I'm not condeming you or your opinion...it's your choice. We will just agree to disagree on this.

But, I do think the Catholic church has evolved. I don't understand why you brought that up to begin with since this isn't a religious discussion. The world as a whole has evolved. What was believed centuries ago has no bearing on what is being discussed now.
post #74 of 84
Well, in my mind the catholic church hasn't evolved as much as humanity in general..but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was, that from a christian perspective, figuratively speaking the earth is the center of the universe...it means the earth is important and human actions are extremely important, we aren't just a spec of dust in an infinite universe.
post #75 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Well, in my mind the catholic church hasn't evolved as much as humanity in general..but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was, that from a christian perspective, figuratively speaking the earth is the center of the universe...it means the earth is important and human actions are extremely important, we aren't just a spec of dust in an infinite universe.
Ummm...ok. Yes, the earth is important because we live here, and I don't see us moving to Mars or another galaxy anytime in the next few years. And of course we think we are the center of the universe...we live here with a family, town, job, etc...that is what we know.

I think what Dusty's Mom was saying was, to a higher power we are just specs of dust because there is a whole universe and I'm sure we aren't the only planet with life. I picture it like someone have 20 ant farms...they are basically self sufficient, and you check on them every now and then and sometimes you have to do something (oh, they need water...or whatever, honestly never had an ant farm but you get the idea).
post #76 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
it could be random, it could be done by a higher power..I don't really care. I just don't believe in stories that try to convince me one way or the other. We don't know. I only consider believing in something if it is supported by evidence.
Dusty's mom - the fact that you're not talking about organized religion and that you are not religious but spiritual explains a lot...
calico- If you think the catholic church has evolved a lot since the middle ages, think again.
How can a story, "try to convince" you? Isn't a "story" an inanimate object?

It is called faith, the faith to believe without evidence.

I am always surprised by non-believers and atheists that will debate for hours on end and pages upon pages of threads on forums about the non existance of God. If God does not exist, why debate it?

I don't believe in reincarnation, some people do, I don't. But I certainly wouldn't waste my time debating something I don't even believe in.

This is not directed at anyone on this thread or board, it is just something I have noticed on just about any forum I have ever been on.

I have been told I am stupid, that there is no way there is a God, many atheists just won't let it go and I find that puzzling that if they don't believe they will spend so much time debating and arguing about it.
post #77 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Well, in my mind the catholic church hasn't evolved as much as humanity in general..but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was, that from a christian perspective, figuratively speaking the earth is the center of the universe...it means the earth is important and human actions are extremely important, we aren't just a spec of dust in an infinite universe.
I am not sure where you get all this expert knowledge of "christian perspective", because that certainly is not true that the "christian perspective" is that "the earth is the center of the universe". Where did that come from?
post #78 of 84
Quote:
How can a story, "try to convince" you? Isn't a "story" an inanimate object?
So I meant the authors of stories, whatever....i don't think you missed my point either way.

Quote:
I am not sure where you get all this expert knowledge of "christian perspective", because that certainly is not true that the "christian perspective" is that "the earth is the center of the universe". Where did that come from?
I didn't mean it literally. I said that in my post. Just meant from a christian perspective the earth and what goes on here is important. Not as small as an astronomy class might make it seem. I know this because I've been a christian for .probably 17 or 18 years..that's the perspective i've been taught..

I don't believe in reincarnaton either. No one on here is talking about that thought. I don't know, I haven't seen many posts or threads of atheists tryign to convince other of the nonexistance of god on here and I certainly wasn't trying to do this here.
post #79 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
So I meant the authors of stories, whatever....i don't think you missed my point either way.



I didn't mean it literally. I said that in my post. Just meant from a christian perspective the earth and what goes on here is important. Not as small as an astronomy class might make it seem. I know this because I've been a christian for .probably 17 or 18 years..that's the perspective i've been taught..
Hmmm...I was raised Catholic and still consider myself Catholic after almost 40 years although I don't agree with a lot of the dogma and teachings. You're just a youngster.
post #80 of 84
Well I was eastern orthodox christian, even more traditionalist than catholic. It is pretty scary how ancient their beliefs are. They do not allow musical instruments in church because no technology is allowed in church.
post #81 of 84
Well, if you didn't like the religion you were brought up in, I'm glad you found some belief that you are comfortable with. I'm not sure why this turned into a religion thread when that wasn't the main topic.
post #82 of 84
Even if the athesits don't believe in God, God still believes in the athesits as he created that person
post #83 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Well I was eastern orthodox christian, even more traditionalist than catholic. It is pretty scary how ancient their beliefs are. They do not allow musical instruments in church because no technology is allowed in church.
I don't, neccessarily, feel "ancient" = "scary".

Two thousand years ago the Son of God walked the Earth, two thousand years later his ultimate sacrifice is still valid for all of us.
post #84 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
I'm not sure why this turned into a religion thread when that wasn't the main topic.
You definitely have a point there. Please could we get back to the topic of the thread? As the OP said...
Quote:
The question is a simple one : "Which option best describes your position with regards to creationism / evolution?" It isn't my intention to debate each other's beliefs, but just to state what they are and why.
...the bold is mine.

Please and thanks.
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