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By Sarah Palin, Washington Post Op-Ed - Page 2

post #31 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
But, besides arguments about if global warming exists and more of the "blame Bush" arguments or opinions about Palin's looks or intelligence or husband, I believe this thread about the opinion piece Ms. Palin wrote about Obama's Cap and Trade bill. Can we please get back to that discussion?
Okie dokie.


Here's what John Kerry had to say about Sarah Palin's editorial.


The highlights:

Quote:
Yes, she manages to write about the climate change action in Congress without ever mentioning the reason we are doing this in the first place. It's like complaining about the cost of repairing a roof without factoring in the leaks destroying your home.

...

Reading Gov Palin's op-ed too often it sounds like the only threats America faces are solely economic. But that's not what our intelligence experts and military leaders tell us. General Anthony Zinni, a rock-jawed military man and former commander of our forces in the Middle East who is tough to peg as any sort of climate alarmist warned that without action -- and I quote -- "we will pay the price later in military terms. And that will involve human lives. There will be a human toll."

...

She says that, "The Americans hit hardest will be those already struggling to make ends meet." That's incorrect: The Congressional Budget Office's analysis says, of the measurable costs, "Households in the lowest income quintile would see an average net benefit of about $40 in 2020, while households in the highest income quintile would see a net cost of $245."
To touch on the quote from General Zinni, I would argue that we're already seeing the consequences of, while not necessarily global warming, our energy policy. It's my firm belief that the thousands of young men and women (some of whom I served with) who lost their lives in Iraq died because of our pursuit of oil. Africa is full of brutal warlords as bad as Sadaam, but we don't invade them because their countries don't have any resources we need. As a former member of the military and one who faced the possibility of being recalled to active duty for Iraq (the 'shadow draft') I believe that our national security is severely threatened by our continuing reliance on oil from the Middle East. I don't want my kids to have to go to some god forsaken country in the desert and risk having their heads blown off just so that people don't have to give up their Hummers.
post #32 of 49
Thread Starter 
Are you, the people that believe in Global Warming, really saying that Cap and Trade is going to help with Global Warming?

It sure hasn't helped in Europe, their CO2 rates are still rising.

I'm telling you that Cap and Trade will do nothing but send jobs overseas, raise prices for all of us, the little guys, and bring in billions in revenue for the government, that is the real truth of Cap and Trade as I see it.
post #33 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalie_ca View Post
And that's something to be proud of?! There are a bunch of wars going on right now that are largely the result of a war mongering US President (George Bush) initiating the large scale attacks.
A "bunch of wars?" Leaving Iraq out of it, I am assuming you believe 9-11 was President Bush's fault.
(That is still only two, is two a bunch now?)

One has to wonder what the world would be like if the United States of America did not have such a strong military.
post #34 of 49
Thread Starter 
John Kerry? His word does not carry much weight with me when he says that there will be no cost impact to low income people when their utility prices skyrocket (as Barack, himself said they would)

Please show me where low income people are exempt from paying their utilities.

Please show me how Cap And Trade will lower emissions.

Please show me how Cap and Trade will do anything but raise billions in revenue for the government.

If Cap and Trade hasn't worked in Europe, what makes anyone think it will work here?

ETA, shame on John Kerry for saying his boss is a big fat liar.
post #35 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2009071302882

If Cap and Trade goes through, Obama will be a one-term President and our utility bills will rival our house payments. What is wrong with these morons in Congress?

Surprised "her" Oped did not appear in the Washington Star instead--a joke of a conservative paper! It is probaly one of the newspapers she "reads."
post #36 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of Franz View Post
Surprised "her" Oped did not appear in the Washington Star instead--a joke of a conservative paper! It is probaly one of the newspapers she "reads."
Anything constructive to add besides the usual insults towards Sarah Palin?
post #37 of 49
My biggest problem with the whole Cap and Trade thing is the timing, and of course the big push to get it done RIGHT NOW. Disregarding the whole global warming aspect, and the idea that even if we stop producing CO2 that it won't make a difference with China and India refusing to limit their output...

We're in the "worst recession since the Great Depression" The unemployment rate is the worst in 26 years, and even Obama now says its going to get worse before it gets better. Obama also admits that energy costs are going to skyrocket for all American families once his plan is put into effect.

So is now really the best time to put this plan into effect? When so many American families are struggling, there are many homes still close to foreclosure, people are still losing their jobs by the tens or hundreds of thousands per month, and NOW is the time to possibly increase costs 4 fold??? How does this make any sense at all?

There has to be a way to make this work with developing energy technology without bankrupting every family in America.
post #38 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Are you, the people that believe in Global Warming, really saying that Cap and Trade is going to help with Global Warming?

It sure hasn't helped in Europe, their CO2 rates are still rising.

I'm telling you that Cap and Trade will do nothing but send jobs overseas, raise prices for all of us, the little guys, and bring in billions in revenue for the government, that is the real truth of Cap and Trade as I see it.
First, I don't know enough about Global Warming to comment on what sort of effect, if any, Cap and Trade will have on emissions or climate.

Second, NEITHER OBAMAS CAP AND TRADE NOR PALINS ALASKAN PIPELINE AND OFFSHORE DRILLING PLANS can solve the problem of dependence on foreign oil.

There is no solution. At some point, oil will become scarce here and overseas and it will cost everyone a pretty penny. Maybe we have enough oil for our lifetime, but it's definitely a problem that our children and grandchildren will have to face. Really, if we care about the problems that future generations will face we all, globally (but especially Americans since we use 5 times more than the global average), need to cut back on energy consumption. We need to look into alternative energy sources.

Certainly, this foreign oil energy crisis, or the effects on the economy because of it will not be solved in any single politician's term.
post #39 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Anything constructive to add besides the usual insults towards Sarah Palin?
Yes! See my quote is your last post, thanks!

Oh one more, the majority of Americans can't stand her and one for the road, she is savvy to a point but has no real smarts!
post #40 of 49
Thread Starter 
Where did you get that "majority" from?

The, "has no real smarts" is just your opinion and really doesn't mean any more than mine does.

Sarah Palin has done quite well for herself, so going by that, she must be quite a bit smarter than you or I, LOL.

Sarah Palin speaks to the authenic conservatives that believe in government being fiscally responsible, something the current GOP has gotten away from IMO.
post #41 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of Franz View Post
Yes! See my quote is your last post, thanks!

Oh one more, the majority of Americans can't stand her and one for the road, she is savvy to a point but has no real smarts!
Nope, I looked, nothing but insults from you on this thread, I'm sorry, I was looking for something besides insults which do not add to the thread.
post #42 of 49
Thread Starter 
I do believe we need to lessen our dependence on foreign oil and have alternative energy sources. I believe both political parties have let us down in this regard. But because we can't drill for what we have here we have to buy it from the middle east.

We have allowed the environmentalists to keep us from drilling but haven't done anything to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. It is insane.

I agree with Heidi, NOT right NOW. And I hear people, including myself on forums everywhere screaming about jobs going overseas. What do you think will happen when Cap & Trade goes into effect? We already have the highest corporate taxes in the world (except for Japan), Cap & Trade will tax them more. What do you think will happen? More jobs going overseas.

Do we not want any jobs here at all for goodness sakes.
post #43 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I do believe we need to lessen our dependence on foreign oil and have alternative energy sources. I believe both political parties have let us down in this regard. But because we can't drill for what we have here we have to buy it from the middle east.

We have allowed the environmentalists to keep us from drilling but haven't done anything to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. It is insane.

I agree with Heidi, NOT right NOW. And I hear people, including myself on forums everywhere screaming about jobs going overseas. What do you think will happen when Cap & Trade goes into effect? We already have the highest corporate taxes in the world (except for Japan), Cap & Trade will tax them more. What do you think will happen? More jobs going overseas.

Do we not want any jobs here at all for goodness sakes.
There's only 5 years worth of oil in those reserves. I think it's good to hold on to that as long as possible for both environmental and economic reasons.

I agree that now is not a good time to drive up the prices on anything, and it irks me that we're exporting jobs faster than we're exporting anything else. What really irritates me is when American companies export jobs so they can increase their profits rather than offer those jobs to the American consumers who are supporting them. If those companies had to pay American wages to their foreign workers, they would probably just hire Americans.
post #44 of 49
Thread Starter 
Companies move out of the U.S. because they are being taxed to death and cannot compete unless they do move to a country where it is less expensive to do business, I don't think we can fault them for that.
post #45 of 49
Thread Starter 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040800758.html

Nice little article that tells how Cap and Trade is working out in Europe where it has been in effect for two years when the article was written two years ago.

Interesting little snippett, maybe Tricia can tell us if it is true.

Quote:
Europe has already hit a few bumps with its program. There's the Dutch silicon carbide maker that calls itself the greenest such plant in the world, but now can't afford to run full-time; the French cement workers who fear they're going to lose jobs to Morocco, which doesn't have to meet the European guidelines; and the German homeowners who pay 25 percent more for electricity than they did before -- even as their utility companies earn record profits.
Quote:
Of all the effects of the new rules, the rise in the price of power has aroused the most outrage. Much of the anger of consumers and industries has been aimed at the continent's utility companies. Like other firms, the utilities were given slightly fewer allowances than they needed. But instead of charging customers for the cost of buying allowances to cover the shortfall, utilities in much of Europe charged customers for 100 percent of the tradable allowances they were given -- even though the government handed them out free. Electricity rates soared.

Quote:
Germany boasts that it has cut emissions to 18.4 percent below 1990 levels, the benchmark used in the Kyoto Protocol and in Europe. But nearly half the reduction was because of sagging industrial output in the former East Germany after reunification. For the 2008-2012 period, E.U. officials sliced 5 percent off Germany's emissions proposal.
Quote:
One key issue is how to deal with imports from countries that don't price carbon. A U.S. system that raised costs for U.S. firms would make imported goods, especially from India and China, even more competitive, adding to the trade deficit and possibly driving U.S. companies out of business. But, for now, demanding that China act on greenhouse gases is a non-starter, and waiting for Beijing could be an excuse for inaction, proponents of U.S. legislation say.
It is a very interesting article.

My electric bill was $102.00 for June, using that as an average, I can expect to pay $306.00 more a year just for electricity. That is not counting everything else that will get taxed more, including food and building materials. From what I hear the farmers are going to get hit hard.

Those products coming from China that will never go for a cap and trade are looking better all the time.
You can only tax people so much.
post #46 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
John Kerry? His word does not carry much weight with me when he says that there will be no cost impact to low income people when their utility prices skyrocket (as Barack, himself said they would)

...

ETA, shame on John Kerry for saying his boss is a big fat liar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
Obama also admits that energy costs are going to skyrocket for all American families once his plan is put into effect.
Come on, you guys can do better than that. Senator Obama made that statement in January of 2008. He wasn't President and he wasn't referring to the Waxman-Markey bill because it hadn't been proposed yet. President Obama has said nothing of the sort about the Waxman-Markey bill. The figures John Kerry quotes specifically analyze this bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040800758.html

Nice little article that tells how Cap and Trade is working out in Europe where it has been in effect for two years when the article was written two years ago.
It IS an interesting article.

Quote:
German homeowners who pay 25 percent more for electricity than they did before -- even as their utility companies earn record profits.

...

Like other firms, the utilities were given slightly fewer allowances than they needed. But instead of charging customers for the cost of buying allowances to cover the shortfall, utilities in much of Europe charged customers for 100 percent of the tradable allowances they were given -- even though the government handed them out free. Electricity rates soared.
So, as the bolded words show, the reason for the 25% rate hike has almost nothing to do with the cap and trade and almost everything to do with corporate greed. The utility companies aren't passing the extra costs along to their customers -- they're gouging them. The big oil companies did that to US last year without even having a carbon tax as an excuse.
post #47 of 49
Thread Starter 
If you want to believe prices, especially electricity won't skyrocket after reading the article on Europe's Cap & Trade and listening to what Barack said himself then you go right ahead.

Logic tells me that Cap & Trade is going to hurt us bad.
post #48 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
If you want to believe prices, especially electricity won't skyrocket after reading the article on Europe's Cap & Trade and listening to what Barack said himself then you go right ahead.
As soon as you can actually connect the dots, I might believe you. Re-read that article. The extra cost imposed on the utility companies was negligible because the carbon cap was hardly higher than the existing carbon emissions. That's actually one of the big complaints of European environmentalists - the cap is way too high. The money isn't going to government taxes, it's going into the utility companies executives' pockets. Simple corporate greed. Capitalism in action, in other words. There simply aren't any dots connecting the cap and trade policy to the higher rates in Europe because they don't exist.

As for Senator Obama's remarks, you said that Senator Kerry was calling his boss a liar. That's patently false. Kerry was quoting figures from the Congressional Budget Office (a non-partisan group) that were specifically about the Waxman-Markey bill. The Waxman-Markey bill includes, among other things, provisions to give low-middle class income families credits to offset the higher rates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Logic tells me that Cap & Trade is going to hurt us bad.
But your logic, well, doesn't seem to be logical. I think it's an emotional knee-jerk reaction. Why, if lower carbon forms of power are cheaper, wouldn't you expect the utilities to pursue them? Am I supposed to believe that their primary goal is to shove as much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere as possible? If they're told that coal plants are going to get gradually more expensive to operate each year, why wouldn't they start adding wind, solar, and nuclear power to their portfolio? Nuclear, in particular, can already operate at costs comparable to coal plants and as solar/wind plants begin to achieve the same economies of scale as fossil fuel plants, their costs should become comparable as well given that they're built in the proper parts of the country.

We're going to need new power plants over the next few years/decades. Electric cars are a great reason. They would greatly reduce our dependence on oil. But we're going to need additional electricity to power those cars and as it stands right now, many of those new plants are going to be coal plants. With a cap and trade policy, the utilities are motivated to build wind / solar / nuclear plants instead of more coal plants.

If you care to dig into the Waxman-Markey bill and give me some real analysis on exactly how it's going to hurt us bad, then let's talk details. I think it's an important issue and a conversation worth having. John Boehner's big complaint about the bill was that "it's a piece of ****", so it should be pretty easy to beat that standard.
post #49 of 49
Thread Starter 
So, you are saying that Barack saying "utilities prices will skyrocket" when Cap & Trade is passed, was a lie on Barack's part?

IMO, the proof is in the pudding, in the case of Cap & Trade all one has to do is look at how it is not working in Europe.

Quote:
The Waxman-Markey bill includes, among other things, provisions to give low-middle class income families credits to offset the higher rates.
So you are saying that there will be higher rates. LOL
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