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Rodent Ulcer and prednisone

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
Info here: http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=200146

But my questions are directly related to the title, which is why I posted a new thread.

Kizzy's bump on the lip is, as a couple people suggested, rodent ucler.

Due to Kizzy's health background, he can NOT be treated with the depo-medrol shot, so we're doing prednisone pills.

I forgot to ask my vet:

Is/are rodent ulcers contagious?

Has anyone here dealt with them? I'd be interested in hearing your stories.....

My vet did say that this condition tends to be ongoing, although some "patients" have had only one incident, treated, then fine... but apparantly thats not the typical.
post #2 of 26
They're not contagious, as they're normally allergy-induced, but Eosinophilic Granuloma Complex can appear on parts of the body other than the lip, e.g., inner organs.
post #3 of 26
My Cinnie has had it approximately 4 times in her life, shes 11 years old now. Her problem is she is extremely allergic to flea bites after I found that out, I made sure I put front line on her and changed her bowls from plastic to metal, because she also gets acne, that also helped considerably. the only thing I did do for her was bath it in warm water, but I never had to give her something for it. It would last about a week and then go down. As far as contagious, none of the other cats ever got it. I don't believe its contagious, I think its within herself.
post #4 of 26
My Stomper had it, but the lip bump went away on its own...or so I thought. I never associated it with rodent ulcer. I am used to seeing the type of symptoms where the lip actually looks eroded away as in another thread right now. Or like JCat says the EGC erosions on other parts of the body. Never just the swollen bottom lip lump.

The coincidence is that Stomper has lymphocytic/plasmacytic triaditis. He is on Prednisolone for life now. We can't get him weaned off or he crashes. Since being on this that lip lump has gone away and never been back. I looked for it when you posted your thread originally. I never though anything about it, until your threads. I just thought it was a bug bite, as he was always chasing big ants.

You have been through so much lately with your kitties Kizzy will not trasmit this to little Kitchi or any of your other critters. It is immune system mediated.

I have to say Kizzy always makes me laugh. He has the cutest, silliest face that everytime I see a photo of him I just bust out in a smile.
post #5 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
They're not contagious, as they're normally allergy-induced, but Eosinophilic Granuloma Complex can appear on parts of the body other than the lip, e.g., inner organs.
Great informative link...thank you. I am sooo glad I didn't adopt a wait and see approach with this one. My vet did say he see some minor erosion.... so I'm assuming it is the one classed as a rodent ulcer...But it also could be eosinophilic granuloma.

maybe I should quit thinking and just see what these meds do.... We go back in 2wks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aswient View Post
My Cinnie has had it approximately 4 times in her life, shes 11 years old now. Her problem is she is extremely allergic to flea bites after I found that out, I made sure I put front line on her and changed her bowls from plastic to metal, because she also gets acne, that also helped considerably. the only thing I did do for her was bath it in warm water, but I never had to give her something for it. It would last about a week and then go down. As far as contagious, none of the other cats ever got it. I don't believe its contagious, I think its within herself.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm sooo glad to hear Cinnie has only had it 4 times in 11yrs. Kizzy has had acne on his chin too, once... I haven't seen it since it was resolved. (metal bowls now) He is on advantage for fleas...

I'm doing some thinking on the allergy lines.

The only thing that changed is on Friday, I bought some hairball stuff, and I gave it to both cats. I think that was the day the lip started swelling.... Guess I won't use the hairball stuff any more..... Kitchi doesn't have any probs with it.


Thx again for the responses.....I was quite scared at first, (google shows so many ummm, not nice pics for rodent ulcer).
post #6 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kittymonsters View Post
My Stomper had it, but the lip bump went away on its own...or so I thought. I never associated it with rodent ulcer. I am used to seeing the type of symptoms where the lip actually looks eroded away as in another thread right now. Or like JCat says the EGC erosions on other parts of the body. Never just the swollen bottom lip lump.

The coincidence is that Stomper has lymphocytic/plasmacytic triaditis. He is on Prednisolone for life now. We can't get him weaned off or he crashes. Since being on this that lip lump has gone away and never been back. I looked for it when you posted your thread originally. I never though anything about it, until your threads. I just thought it was a bug bite, as he was always chasing big ants.

You have been through so much lately with your kitties Kizzy will not trasmit this to little Kitchi or any of your other critters. It is immune system mediated.

I have to say Kizzy always makes me laugh. He has the cutest, silliest face that everytime I see a photo of him I just bust out in a smile.
have you seen any side effects with the prednisone?

I did doubt it when I first posted too, because of all the pics I've googled on the topic....

The vet did mention the immune system issue, which is why we went with pred instead of depoM.

and thank you. I'm hoping my break comes soon
post #7 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake_Lady View Post
have you seen any side effects with the prednisone?

I did doubt it when I first posted too, because of all the pics I've googled on the topic....

The vet did mention the immune system issue, which is why we went with pred instead of depoM.

and thank you. I'm hoping my break comes soon
So far no problems with the pred. we do have him on predniSOlone which is the active metabolite of Prednisone. Some kitties don't convert the prednisone well in their livers. We are watching Stomper's glucose to make sure he does't become diabetic. He can't go lower that 2.5 mg daily or he starts vomiting, stops eating and gets bloody diarrhea. When on the pred, he chows, poops good and plays like a kitten. So for him pred is a lifesaver.

I am hoping that you will be able to just "pulse" Kizzy with the pred as needed and not have to keep him on it all the time. I can empathize with you on having a chronically ill kitty.

I will keep healing thought for you, that your break is indeed near at hand. Goodness knows you deserve it.
post #8 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kittymonsters View Post
I am hoping that you will be able to just "pulse" Kizzy with the pred as needed and not have to keep him on it all the time. I can empathize with you on having a chronically ill kitty.
That is what the vet is hoping for too, that Kizzy can be weaned off of it.... He prescribed enough to last till the 20th which is our next appt. He takes 2 pills in the am, 1 in pm...then next wk he takes 1 in am and 1 in pm.....then reevaluated.

I "think" it is helping.....His lip seems to be less swollen... and I haven't seen anything else to be worried about.

thanks for the support.
post #9 of 26
This is good news!
post #10 of 26
Here's some advice I got from a German EGC forum, and which was okayed by my vets: Use salmon oil as a supplement for Kizzy. The dosage is one 500 mg. capsule (pierce it and squeeze the oil over his food) daily for up to six weeks during/immediately after an outbreak. For maintenance, the dosage is one capsule per week. Jamie hasn't had an outbreak in years using this regimen.
post #11 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
Here's some advice I got from a German EGC forum, and which was okayed by my vets: Use salmon oil as a supplement for Kizzy. The dosage is one 500 mg. capsule (pierce it and squeeze the oil over his food) daily for up to six weeks during/immediately after an outbreak. For maintenance, the dosage is one capsule per week. Jamie hasn't had an outbreak in years using this regimen.
Thanks, for the tip

The bump has shrunk, but it is still there......

Does this condition do permanent damage even when treated? Or am I just expecting too much perhaps? It is after all, only 4 days of treatment so far.
post #12 of 26
It shouldn't do any permanent damage - you just don't want it to become chronic. It might take several more days to disappear. Sometimes the ulcers disappear spontaneously, without meds, so there's no way of predicting how long he'll have it.

I use the salmon oil once a week, and check Jamie's mouth once or twice a week. As soon as I see the slightest bump, I up the dosage to every day for about a month. So far it has prevented the development of another full-blown rodent ulcer in him, but it doesn't always work, as some cat owners say it just shortens recovery time when used in conjunction with steroids.
post #13 of 26
Thread Starter 
Kizzy is doing well.....the lip is back to normal.... still a couple bumps in his mouth, but he's doing well.

I'm curious though..... His meow has changed ( from the onset of the swollen lip till now)..... Has that ever happened to anyone, and if so, will his meow go back to normal?

We're back to the vet on Monday for more meds/checkup, and Kitchi's final shots, etc.
post #14 of 26
I haven't been in cat health for a while so just noticed this. My Pinky has been diagnosed with rodent ulcer and his used to flair up about once a year, but that has decreased to about once every other year. He gets 1 week of antibiotics and a 2 week prednisone regime. What triggered Pinky to get them was similar to what triggers feline acne in some cats - using plastic bowls (long gone from my household) or if I get lax on sterilizing the food bowls often enough. His voice has never changed afterwards. That is a bit odd.

I've spoken to at least 5 different vets about their opinions on prednisone, with 2 of them being specialists. I have 2 cats on it long term. Both specialists told me basically the same thing - that prednisone is easier on cats than humans and dogs. Long term use can lead to diabetes, but the majority of cats will self regulate themselves out of that condition. If a cat needs to remain on an anti-inflamatory for any extended period of time, then prednisone is the safest to use. The bigger risk in their opinion was reduced immunity, which I have noticed in Muddy, who has an auto-immune disease in the first place. I have to watch Muddy very carefully and get him into a vet if there are any signs of illness. Stumpy has been on pred for over 2 years now, and Muddy has been on it for about 9 months. Stumpy has never shown any signs of adverse effects.
post #15 of 26
Thread Starter 
Update:

Kizzy is doing well, as in all the ulcers have gone away....

We're tapering the dosage of prednisone for another few weeks. Then trying him without it.

My only slight concern is that he has lost weight over the last 2wks.....not a dramatic amount, and the vet said not to overanalyze it, but that's easier said than done in my case

Has anyone else noticed weightloss on prednisone?

Thanks.
post #16 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake_Lady View Post
Has anyone else noticed weightloss on prednisone?

Thanks.
No - actually it's known for causing weight gain, though Kizzy probably hasn't been on it long enough for a significant gain. Has he seemed nauseated from the pills? We gave Jamie shots (he's almost impossible to pill), not pills, but I remember that pred always nauseated my mom.
post #17 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
No - actually it's known for causing weight gain, though Kizzy probably hasn't been on it long enough for a significant gain. Has he seemed nauseated from the pills? We gave Jamie shots (he's almost impossible to pill), not pills, but I remember that pred always nauseated my mom.
Nope, no nausea...... but I haven't noticed him eating more either. Which I thought he would.

My vet does not want to do shots because of the length of time it stays in the body, and Kizzy's lowered immune system issues.

I know the vet said not to overanalyze it, but of course I am. If it can go wrong in my life, it will

All I can think is that he hasn't been eating much due to strange people in the house (he hid on Wed, till Thurs..... Came out Thurs then hid again because of another strange person......Then yesterday we had grandparents over and he hid again).... so it's obvious he's stressed.

I'm thinking that perhaps that has caused him to be not eating as much for the past week.
post #18 of 26
Have you given him any salmon oil like I recommended? If you have, has it loosened his stools? It usually doesn't with large cats, but could be a contributing factor. We gave it to a small cat at the shelter one time, also for a rodent ulcer, and he got the runs.
post #19 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
Have you given him any salmon oil like I recommended? If you have, has it loosened his stools? It usually doesn't with large cats, but could be a contributing factor. We gave it to a small cat at the shelter one time, also for a rodent ulcer, and he got the runs.
Yes I've attempted to give him some on a couple different occassions, mixed in with his wet food, half of the capsle (it's 1000mg) but he wouldn't touch it He's gotten a few drops of it though (I can sometimes get away with 1-3 drops) on 3 different occassions.

But his stool seems to be his "normal"..... not any softer

but on the topic of the salmon oil.... um, what kind do you use?

When I looked there was a bunch of em, but they didn't have only salmon oil in it....they had other fish oils as well. I ended up buying the most expensive one there because it was the only 100% salmon oil one. (capsles are 1000mg)
post #20 of 26
Thread Starter 
ok, so, when it rains it pours.

I think his lip is swelling again

Today was Kizzy's first reduced dose of prednisone. We were doing 1 tablet in am. and pm. reduced to 1/2 tab am and pm. for 5 days, then down to 1/2 tab once a day for 5 days, then 1/2 tab every other day for 10 days,

So today he's had 1/2 tablet today.

I'm keeping an eye on it, and will call the vet tommorrow for more meds if indeed it is swelling up again...

But, reason for posting:

Has anyone else experienced this???? I mean it's so quick.... he was at the vet yesterday, the physical signs were all gone, he had a full pill last night, then half a pill 5hrs ago and some slight swelling of the lip now.


excuse me for a moment but UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!
so frustrating.
post #21 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake_Lady View Post
Has anyone else experienced this???? I mean it's so quick.... he was at the vet yesterday, the physical signs were all gone, he had a full pill last night, then half a pill 5hrs ago and some slight swelling of the lip now.
Sometimes there can be an underlying infection within the swollen areas. Did the vet give you any antibiotics to take with the pred? Pinky's rodent ulcer sometimes needs antibiotics.

2 thoughts:
Pred can weaken the immune system
I've been told by at least 1 vet that pred counteracts the effectiveness of antibiotics (probably because of previous statement), so there are vets that won't prescribe both pred and an antibiotic at the same time unless it is truly warranted.
post #22 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
Sometimes there can be an underlying infection within the swollen areas. Did the vet give you any antibiotics to take with the pred? Pinky's rodent ulcer sometimes needs antibiotics.

2 thoughts:
Pred can weaken the immune system
I've been told by at least 1 vet that pred counteracts the effectiveness of antibiotics (probably because of previous statement), so there are vets that won't prescribe both pred and an antibiotic at the same time unless it is truly warranted.
No antibiotics here.

post #23 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake_Lady View Post
No antibiotics here.

He may not need them. Pinky is sometimes put on pred alone, but sometimes flares to the point that it looks like there is a bacterial infection in it. There is a fine line between the 2 from its appearance.

I know you don't want to put Kizzy thru another trip to the vet. Just call them tomorrow.



And for Kizzy!
post #24 of 26
This really stinks. I wonder if because Kizzy has been so stressed by the goings on in the house and then another vet visit, if it is causing a flair even though he still hasn't tapered off the pred.

This type of thing is so frustrating, especially in kitties that have chronic immune problems anyway. Maybe the vet will suggest a longer slower taper for him.

As I head off to bed I am going to send lots of thoughts that you wake up in the morning and Kizzy's lip is back down to normal.
post #25 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake_Lady View Post
Has anyone else experienced this???? I mean it's so quick.... he was at the vet yesterday, the physical signs were all gone, he had a full pill last night, then half a pill 5hrs ago and some slight swelling of the lip now.
Harley has been struggling with eosinophilic granuloma complex for almost a year now. At first, he had several Depo-Medrol injections, but we're managing him now on prednisone.

His lip ulcers could change drastically from one day to the next (and I could even see changes hourly sometimes!).

We are down to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet every other day (from 1/2 tab 2x a day). As we taper, he will sometimes get ulcers and we go back up for a couple of weeks. He still has linear granulomas on both thighs, but no more ulcers or blisters on his mouth.

We are also using Transfer Factor sprinkled on his food in the evening and a fatty acid supplement (3V Skin Caps) on his food in the mornings.
post #26 of 26
Thread Starter 
Guess I never concluded this post.

Kizzy's lip healed fine....once he was off the prednisone, he hasn't needed it since
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