BIG cats......

That is AWESOME!!! Can you imagine the size of their litter boxes though?

While I admire the thought behind her taking on the orphaned kitties, and trying to avoid extinction, I have to wonder.

Am I not the only one that see's the danger in what she is doing????

She is treating them like harmless pets, rather than wild animals. Heck, I won't even allow my larger snakes to be drapped on people's necks, or my own for that matter, let alone a tiger on my back

Sorry, while I admire the beauty of these cats, I think this woman leaves alot to be desired when it comes to safe handling of exotic animals.... We'll probally read about it later on...maybe yrs down the road... When one of these kitties attacks/injures or kills a person.

(hmmm, maybe this needs to be in IMO)

It appears to me that she got them as babies, and always raised them inside... She is also a breeder, and the babies are socialized since birth...
Let's wait and see what John (amberthebobcat) has to say about this... I don't think it necessarily means something bad will happen...
I wonder if they are declawed? Will check again.
Also, IMO these are very different from snakes in the sense that they do bond to people quite strongly, understand and show emotions...

I agree, snakes do not show emotions. But IMO they can bond to people, and they do understand different things. Not to the extent of mammals of course.

Bottom line though, these cats (just like my snakes) are still wild animals and safety should come first. They will always have instincts, and if they kick in, I hope its not on someone doing a wedding photo.

My snakes are all captive bred too (they weren't orphaned in the wild, they are many generations of being bred in captivity) and know me well.... but still go with their natural instincts... take the most recent issue I had, that I posted about a little while ago... I made a mistake.

I am a breeder too. My snakes have been socialised since birth as well

Snakes, tigers, cougars, monkeys, etc. all have one thing in common.... they are wild animals (doesn't matter where they are born). People best learn to respect that fact, and the danger they can impose.

I hope with all my heart, that nothing happens with this lady and her "pets" but.........

I'm glad you commented Snake_Lady.

I feel the same way. I know there is a forum member here [amberthebobcat] with wild cats. I however do not believe in owning wild animals and making them into pets. I could see this woman having a sanctuary where they live OUTSIDE in a natural setting with human interaction but I think it is ridiculous to treat them like house cats.

I've seen it be a total disaster with wolves, and wolf hybrids living in the home. It's definitley not for every body, but I personally feel wild animals are more beautiful in the wild doing what they are supposed to do.

Also regardless of snakes vs. big cats, yes wild animals can bond to people but they are STILL WILD. Having a relationship with a wild animal is not even comparable to a relationship with a domestic pet. Especially with a large cat or a wolf, they are still the predator and you can still easily become the prey regardless of your relationship. Domesticated animals depend on us for everything where wild animals have a totally different mentality whether they are raised in captivity or not.

Look why happened to Siegfred and Roy - they raised their tigers from babies, and they were attacked by them. The problem is that you HAVE to remember at all times they ARE wild, and to respect that. When you don't, tragic mistakes happen!

That is exactly what I was thinking. Siegfred was lucky to survive that attack.

Even a cub born in captivity has the instinct of it's wild ancestors.

The same holds true even with feral kittens who have been domestcated. Archie and Mehitable are more affectionate than the normal housecat, but it's all on their terms. Mitty has no problem smacking me with her claws if she doesn't feel she is getting the proper respect. They have a lot of their wild instincts still. Much as I would love to have a friendship with bigger and wilder cats it would take a very special person to live with them, and I doubt I'm that special. Is she? I hope so, time will tell.

Well, some of this is true, but not all. Treating these cats like house cats is not ridiculous at all. My (wild) cats, if that's what we want to call them, are treated the same was as our domestics and bond the very same way. They are not really wild, because they were born and raised in captivity. Our so called domestics still have all the same instincts as my large cats do. However, being a large cat, especially my cougar, you must understand the power and strength these cats have. Most injuries and or accidents are from rough play and NOT being attacked or bitten from the cat thinking we are prey. My cougar for instance, never looks at me as prey. His love and bond with me is much stronger than any cat I have ever owned. My bobcats and cougar have the same mentality as my domestics and in fact, my bobcats are highly protective of my domestics. They want to eat, play and sleep just like my domestics, but yes, they do play rough.
Now, this does not mean I let just anyone play or go in with him. That would be highly irresponsible of me. The only people who go in with him are me and my wife and no one else. I also let no one else come into contact with our bobcats either. Their bond is very strong with us and they are highly protective of us as well. Having the larger cats live in the house is not a good idea however. Our cougar no longer lives inside with us, he has a large outdoor enclosure. The bobcats live inside and also have a secure outdoor enclosure.
Not true at all They were not attacked. Here is what had happened. Siegfred was in the middle of having a stroke while on stage. His tiger could sense something was wrong. (As I stated, our big cats are very protective of us) The tiger made an attempt to move Siegfred to safety by grabbing him by the back of the neck, just as they would their own cub. However, unlike cats, humans do not have the neck capable of supporting this type of action and that is how Siegfred was injured. He was not attacked and his tiger still lives with him today.
When living with these cats, it does take a great deal of responsibilty. ANY animal, wild or domestic, can bite or act out of control. However, with these powerful cats any bite can be serious due to their size and power. That is why at no time, should anyone other than the owners who lived with and raised the cats, should ever be allowed to interact with them.

Hmm I am not sure how I feel about this. I look at Jake, he was with me since 5 weeks old, he was a bottle baby for about a week. Now- he is extremely wild and if he had the physical strength i'm sure I'd be dead by now from rough play. I am also sure the entire house would be at ground level if he was bigger. I use soft paws on him but he still chews on furniture as if he's a rodent, and no he's not teething and he climbs on all furniture throwing everything on the floor. This is a cat that has not been around cats ever. Jake is my only cat so he is acting only on instincts. I know that in the case of domestics, being around other domestic cats is good for their socialization...so since Jake never had that he is now crazy and I have to take special care about his socialization and training him to function in our human house. I doubt a big cat would have a different attitude if it had been born in captivity, the only difference would be size and strength- much greater potential for damage. I guess it's possible to make things different if the owner takes a lot of time for training and knows exactly what to do. I dunno...unless this lady knows exactly what she's doing- she's in trouble but it looks like she does know.

That was not an attack, according to them themselves.... The Tiger tried to protect him by carrying him out by the neck.
Yes, he was seriously hurt... Yes, they can be dangerous by their shear size...
But.... There are risks in all animals - as we know, a simple bite from our kitty cats can put us in the hospital for many days... If not treated... It can be lethal...
Now, let's put the numbers - how many people have been attacked/hurt by the big cats they raised since little, and how many people have been hurt by their kitty cat?
I think if the raising, socialization and precautions are taken, they can be very safe part of the family...
Everything is relative... Snake_Lady: you have some BIG snakes in there, that can easily hurt you, or your kids, if a mistake is made, or if their instincts kick in, or something else unexpected happens... But you know how to deal with them, and how to take precautions to keep yourself and your family safe... Why do you think that that tiger is any more dangerous than some of the big boas you have?
I would be MUCH more comfortable with a tiger that I raised from a baby than with a huge boa... Anytime... If I could afford, of course
I think it is all relative by what WE think it is dangerous, based on what we are used to, and the usual taboos.

Knowing the kind of damage my much smaller kitties can do playing, the picture with the tiger on her back was disturbing. They obviousley love her, but there is no way they can understand that a pounce from across the room as an invitation to play could break her back. Despite all the reasons why it probably isn't a good idea to keep so many cats of such size, I must admit, I would love to visit her. Can you imagine a Tiger butting his head against you and snuggling up?

... a bit OT, but Sigfried and Roy had their tigers performing on a Las Vegas show, with the tiger standing on a suspended disco ball

Tigers don't belong in a circus or a stage and what they were doing there was disrespectful towards the tigers, out dated and simply WRONG.


regards,

christine

This story got me to thinking, what exactly makes an animal "wild"? The two things that come to mind are,

1. Not being socialized with humans, and

2. Having to fight for its survival (food).

It would seem as though having regular food intervals would make the socialization part a hell of a lot easier, particularly once the kitties realize that humans are the ones doing the feeding, eh? And if they're given the space to roam and have some semblance of "freedom", it seems they wouldn't have any claustrophobic desire to lash out and free itself from any "bondage".

I don't purport to know anything about the domestication of big cats, I'm just thinking out loud. But I remember watching a program on cheetahs where a gazelle had stopped running from their chase, and the cheetah stopped as well, confused by this deviation in the routine. "Hmmm, isn't my lunch supposed to run from me? What do I do now?" I thought that spoke volumes regarding what an animals instincts truly are; it seemed as if you took the mechanics of necessity out of their "wild" routine, you could domesticate anything.

It has also been proven that our domestic cats really aren't domesticated after all. They have learned to live with humans, not the same way that dogs were domesticated.

You raise some very intelligent thoughts. Most dictonaries define it as similiar. Non-domesticated, living in their natural environment, exhibiting uncontrolled behaviour, and the like.

I would raise the issue of instinct though.

Take John's explanation of Siegfred's tiger. Makes sense, that the tiger was trying to help, but the tiger can not realise that what he was doing was going to cause injury to the human. To me, that is an issue of a "wild" animal. I use the term wild loosely... wild, exotic, originally found in the wild, etc.

I'll even use my snakes for another example.... If one were to be falling, instinct would make the snake constrict whatever was there to stop from hurting itself, whether that be someones neck, leg, furniture, whatever and in the act of constricting, it could easily hurt or kill. Again, to me, that is an issue of a wild animal. ( I can't directly compare snakes and tigers because mammals have emotions, reptiles don't.... I'm just trying to compare the instinct aspect of a wild animal)

I do not know a whole lot about big cats, nor do I claim to. I can only speak on things I've read, heard, seen, etc. I do believe they can become domesticated to a certain degree, and make "pets"....but I can not believe that they would ever loose their natural instincts. Which is why one needs to practice safe exotic keeping/handling.

Why I personally fear for this woman, is because she is appearing to NOT be practicing safety. That is why I believe that her large cats are way more dangerous than my large boas. I will not argue the fact that my snakes are dangerous..... yes they are. But I am NOT irresponsible enough to do half of the things she does with her cats.

Yes, I have had people take pics with my boas. What you don't see in the pictures is that there are 2 people on either side of the snake (ready to move if the snake gets spooked and constricts) as well as the person holding it, is holding it in front of them, not draped over their neck. That is safety.

I respect and know what damage my animals can do, how long it would take them to do it in, and believe that a fullgrown tiger could cause a heck of a lot more damage that a 6.5ft, 30-45lb boa could do in a much shorter period of time.

I don't think comparing a bite from a pet cat, to fullgrown tigers is fair at all. Sure, pet cats have bacteria that can cause infection....but they lack the size and strength to do even close to the damage a tiger could. Just because they are both felines, raised with humans, does not make an equal comparison.

As for numbers? No way could anyone compare that either. Exotic cats are not commonly kept in the numbers our wee cats are kept. It is not a fair comparison at all. Numbers of people hurt by large cat pets vs people hurt by housecat pets would be like comparing people hurt by a person with a weapon vs people hurt by a person who is a quadrapelegic.


Bottom line for me is responsibility and safety. Whether it be with a tiger, a chimp, a snake, a cat, a dog, a rat......and I can't see half the things she does as safe

Ultimately, only based on that article, I believe that one day something WILL happen.



Hey John, I'm curious.... You mentioned that you are not looked at as prey. I do not know about big cats, this is why I am asking. What would happen if you were at a butcher shop (the smell of the food they eat, was on you) and you weren't recognisable as John (still recognised as a human though)?

The reason I ask is this: My snakes.... eating... they go by scent and heat. (size at times too). Example: if I had a pet rat, played with it, didn't wash my hands, then stuck my hand in one of their cages. My hand would be FOOD because it smelled like a rat, similiar size as a rat, and warm like a rat. The only exception to this would be size.... normal feeding, if I offer something that is too big for them to eat, some of them won't eat it (others will try, then stop...and others will overindulge themselves and end up regurgitating)

I work with big cats and primates on a daily basis. These animals have a ton of potential for harm and they are NOT domesticated animals. An animal is domesticated after it has lived with and been altered by humans for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Cats, Dogs, Goats, Sheep etc. all fit this definition. Tigers, Snakes, and even hamsters do not.

These animals are not meant to be pets at this time. Sure, you can handraise them and coo and sweet talk them all you want but the potential is still there and these "pet" exotics are even more dangerous because they have lost their healthy fear of humans. You can claim that they were trying to help (in the case of seigfried) or they were just playing but the truth of the matter is that when they see a sign of weakness, their instinct kicks in and you are dealing with a 200+ lbs animal with sharp teeth, sharp claws and pure unadulterated instinct. This is not a house cat in any way shape or form. Yes we take a risk with any animal we bring into our homes, but the risk is much greater with animals that we can not control and that is still filled with wild instincts.

Where I work, and most reputable organizations that work with exotics, we do not enter the animal's enclosures and have very limited contact with them. This is out of respect for the animal and for everyone's safety. Anytime we need to do something with the animal we either train them through protected contact or we sedate them. We see these animals every day, they know us, some of them have even been handraised, but they would still kill us if given the chance and they are still wild animals. I would not want to enter any of their habitats with them.

Lots of people and institutions take this risk and it is their choice, but I personally feel and it has been proven that is a dangerous risk and I personally feel that it is wrong. It is not supportive of conservation and it is not respectful to these beautiful and wonderful animals. If you want a big, tough looking animal, get a big dog.

Living with this many cats I agree completely. No matter how loving they are (and they are) it's totaly on their terms. One seems to see me as her kitten and will pin my arm down to groom me, her brother at still wants a mama and will wake me up at night trying to nurse in my hair. Those two were feral rescues, and the rest aren't quite as extreme, but it's still the same principal. I am allowed to share their lives, but they do not belong to me.

But, some domestic cats will get used to a pet mouse or hamster and will never try to eat it, while if the cat sees a wild mouse running around it will most definitely eat it. IMO that's how it works with these big cats. I mean I don't see how else it would happen. Humans are to big cats what birds and mice are to our domestics..

I handle raw meet all the time, just before feeding. My bobcats and cougar have given my hands a good sniff and at times, will lick my hands, but they have not grabbed my hand thinking it was food. Unlike snakes, who tend to go by scent and body heat, cats are more visual and also go by sound. They do use scent, but it appears to be more of a secondary means of finding food, such as if they would come by a fresh kill. Since my cats do not get live prey, they have learned that humans bring them their food. Cats learn to hunt, it is not instinct. Now, I have had my bobcats come running into the kitchen from a sound sleep, if I have been cutting up beef for them. However, I can never tell if it is do to the scent of the meet, or just by the sound of me cutting the beef on the glass cutting board. They also love these Bil-Jac liver treats. If I pick up the package, they come running before I open it. So just the sound of the package will get them excited. With Carmelo, I can feed him by hand. Before every feeding, I go in with him and give him a full cougar body hug. I put the pan of food down and give him another hug while he is eating. He never growls or makes any attempt to bite me. He just purrrs and purrs. With the bobcats though, they are a different story. I can hand feed them, but once they get the food, you are not getting it back and you can not touch them. They are very protective of their food.

But then how come even a cat that hasn't been socialized with other cats will hunt...They learn it but they have an instinct to learn it.A 4 week old kitten follows moving objects and plays- that's what learning to hunt is all about. Like, domestics get fed but they still hunt for birds and mice if they find any, just because of the instinct- at least a lot of them do. I know there are mellow cats, but my cat wants to hunt so badly ..

Yes, cats have the instinct to chase or go after prey, however the act of going after and killing the prey for food is a learned behavior. They learn from watching their mother. This is why I will not put live prey in with my wild cats. Sure, they will kill it, but after a long period of torture for the animal that was meant for food. Unlike the wild cat in the wild, who will kill their prey on contact, mine will play with the animal until it dies. So yes, the desire for them to hunt is there, but they learn the skills from mom. And yes, there are always exceptions to this rule. A few days ago when I was in Carmelo's enclosure cleaning, I came across a pile of hair and 2 front feet. A young possum had wondered into his enclosure sometime during the night and became a snack. Of course, Carmelo always wants to eat no matter how much I feed him.

I can see this difference in two of my cats. Harley was bottle raised from before his eyes were open. Little One, on the other hand, was brought home from being a barn cat at 4-5 months old. We got mice in our old house, and Harley would love to chase them (I tried to rescue them when I could). One night, he caught one...held it between his paws, and just looked at me like "well, what do I do now?". He was one of the lucky ones, because I just reached down and got it and set it free outside. A toy mouse kept him happy for the rest of the night. A few nights later, another one showed up and Little One saw it. She chased it, pinned it, and killed it before I could stop her. I managed to get it away from her before she started eating (after a little human/kitty battle of will) but she kept looking for her "prize". No toy would get her away from the cabinet he came from. Little One was taught by her mom to catch her dinner (the barn cats ARE fed, but in the summer they don't eat that much cat food...now I see why).

Now, with instincts I could argue every living creature has instincts. Even humans. Some aren't so pleasant. I know human instincts have been buried but they still surface in times of stress. Fight or flight for example. Kill or be killed. Even the sweetest dog will attack if their owner (ie, Alpha) is in danger.
Any living being can revert back to instincts or just "snap" and forget everything that is instilled in them by training. Look at how many humans commit "murder of passion".

I do think having them as housecats is not safe. Especially letting them hop up on the counters! OMG, has much as they weigh, I would have no furniture left! As for the pictures, they didn't state that someone was there watching them, but they didn't state there wasn't, did they? Outside the frame, there could very well been people ready to step in if something went wrong. I would hope she would be smart enough to have some safety measures in place for pictures or public meetings. What she does on her own in her own house is up to her.

My cougar used to jump on the counters all the time Would take couch cushions outside into the enclosure and even tried to take my mattress outside, but could not figure out how to fit it down the stairs I don't feel this woman should be letting strangers into her home with these cats for pictures. As I have stated, I let no one in my home with my bobcats. If anyone stops by, they have to wait outside until the bobcats go outside into the enclosure. Our cougar no longer lives inside. Not that I would worry about him hurting me, but he would destroy furniture and other items just for fun. If it was just me, I wouldn't care, it is just furniture. But my wife would like some decent furniture in the house. But for me, my cougar is more important than man made stuff

If I could have a life like yours John It would complete my lifes ambition's. I would totally love to be in your shoes taking care of the most beautiful cats in the world. My blessings to you and your family and the 4 legged magical creatures you take care of!!!!

I'm with you about 90% of the way on this. As fast and powerful as these cats are, I'm not sure there would be much that could be done if a photo shoot went wrong. I'm guessing that if one did, or if she had a problem with one of them in her own house the animal would be killed, and that would be so wrong, that such a beautiful creature would die because humans were trying to make it act in a manner that wasn't natural for it.

John knows and respects the limits his cats set, they aren't put into risky situations such as photo shoots, and even his cougar is not likely to reach the size of a full grown lion.

Another thing I wonder about, what would happen to her cats if something happened to her? The idea of them languishing in a zoo somewhere because no one else had the bond with them that she did and thus couldn't handle them.....

EXACTLY.

exactly. This woman subjects her animals to all sorts of different risks. I'm sorry, but its people with the attitude like hers, that help give us (exotic keepers) a bad name.

What if one of her "pets" sees a child fall down, and tries to help it? Can you imagine the media attention over that?

That is my point... I have nothing against her beautiful animals, her desire to help them, etc. But when I see an exotic keeper acting irresponsibly, I'm sorry but my goal is to educate and promote SAFE exotic keeping.

indeed.

Awww, thanks I have to admit however, I have no other life But this is a true gift from God, to live and share my life with these cats. I do not force myself on them, they willing let me into their world and our bond is strong. There are times when I feel down, but when I sit with my wild cats and Carmelo comes up to me purring his heart out, sticks his huge paw through the fence and holds me there so he can groom me, all is right and perfect in the world All my cats show a strong bond, but the bond with the big cats is so much more
There was an incident in Kansas 2 years ago with a tiger and a photo shoot. A high school girl was getting her senior picture taken with the tiger (full grown, not a cub). They had the girl sitting on the back of the tiger. The tiger moved in a way that frightened the girl. The girl panicked and the tiger killed her.The tiger was then destoyed, because of this stupid, dumb, useless act. Because of this ALL exotic animal owners have to suffer now, with ban laws in that state. This tiger was at a sancturary too. IMO, the people who allowed this to happen should be sitting in jail. No one should have been allowed in with this adult tiger for photos. Instead of the people who allowed this to happen being punished, the tiger was killed and other exotic animal owners suffer.
We have a sign posted that reads STUPID DOES HURT!! I have had people ask me, believe it or not, what does that mean?? I tell them, when I tell you not to stick your hands in the cage, do not make an attempt to touch the cats and you still do and get bitten, then you are stupid. They just look at me
Same with me

It would be so much more logical to place restraints on what can be done with exotics and how they should be treated than to ban them altogether. If one is to be part of your family, and you are able to treat it properly, fine. If you can't afford to feed it without exploiting it, then you probably shouldn't have it anyhow.

It would be even better (although impractical due to sheer numbers) to simply enact legislation to ban stupid people, rather than exotics, pit bulls or whatever breed/species is next on the list.