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Gay Exorcism in Connecticut

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,5852673.story

What is even worse is that this was a minor.
post #2 of 28
That's awful
post #3 of 28
It's difficult for me to wrap my mind around the fact that even now, in the 21st century, such ignorance still exists.

Those people would have a fit if they were in Toronto this weekend. It's Gay Pride weekend complete with a parade (which our mayor traditionally joins) a special Dyke parade (but not called a parade) and party, party, party. The city expects thousands of visitors for the weekend.
post #4 of 28
What's interesting about this, is that although most everyone would agree (publicly) that this is outrageous behavior, the fact is that anyone who feels that homosexuals don't deserve equal rights across the board, and attempts to adopt a logical posture to defend their case, must be in one of two camps:

1. They feel that homosexuality is a choice.

2. They feel it is a sickness to be "purged".

No other argument would be rational, just purely dogmatic (God said so, the law says so, etc.). I suspect there are more that would defend this sort of "gay purging" than we would care to know.
post #5 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keycube View Post
What's interesting about this, is that although most everyone would agree (publicly) that this is outrageous behavior, the fact is that anyone who feels that homosexuals don't deserve equal rights across the board, and attempts to adopt a logical posture to defend their case, must be in one of two camps:

1. They feel that homosexuality is a choice.

2. They feel it is a sickness to be "purged".

No other argument would be rational, just purely dogmatic (God said so, the law says so, etc.). I suspect there are more that would defend this sort of "gay purging" than we would care to know.

If I'm reading your post correctly, you are actually talking about people opposed to homosexuals because IMO who else but a homophobe would not want homosexuals to have or feel they did not deserve equal rights across the board? For me, the homophobe is more sick than the homosexual - their irrational hate and fear are a sign of mental illness as far as I'm concerned.
post #6 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
It's difficult for me to wrap my mind around the fact that even now, in the 21st century, such ignorance still exists.
Growing up in the rural southern midwest US, and the mentality that is in that area (not everyone of course) I'm not shocked at all. Disgusted yes. Shocked no.

I am surprised they were dumb enough to post the video online.
post #7 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
If I'm reading your post correctly...
Yes, you are reading my post correctly. My principal point of contention is that homophobes are legion, but will try to convince you otherwise with their "equal as long as you're not equated with me" backhanded shows of "support" for the gay community.
post #8 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keycube View Post
Yes, you are reading my post correctly. My principal point of contention is that homophobes are legion, but will try to convince you otherwise with their "equal as long as you're not equated with me" backhanded shows of "support" for the gay community.
Oh yeah! The same as the ones that say they have nothing against blacks - they just don't want their sons or daughters dating or marrying one of them.
post #9 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
It's difficult for me to wrap my mind around the fact that even now, in the 21st century, such ignorance still exists.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
post #10 of 28
I dont even know what to say. Who do they think gives them the right?
post #11 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pami View Post
Who do they think gives them the right?

God and the Bible! Sad isn't it?
post #12 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
God and the Bible! Sad isn't it?
Yes, extremely sad and extremely misguided.
post #13 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
God and the Bible! Sad isn't it?
Very! I don't know if I am allowed to quote bible versus, but I can think of more that one that these people have ignored.

Where were his parents in all this????
post #14 of 28
That is awful . That poor child, he is being taught that who he is, what he is, is wrong and is a "demon". How could his parents allow this? Why do people care about who we love or want to be with??? Its not like homosexuals are hurting anyone or forcing anyone to be a homosexual!?!?! I just dont understand people. A girl who is about my age like 18-19 told me why she is against gay marriage, "the bible tells me so". I was like the bible tells you to treat people unequally just because of who they love?? I told her she has problems if so.... Seriously can someone tell me where exactly in the bible it says being gay is wrong? I mean I thought God created us all, so obviously he created those who are gay that way and so we should just accept them. Sorry im sort of rambling. lol i tend to get a little carried away.
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuneBugBear07 View Post
That is awful . That poor child, he is being taught that who he is, what he is, is wrong and is a "demon". How could his parents allow this? Why do people care about who we love or want to be with??? Its not like homosexuals are hurting anyone or forcing anyone to be a homosexual!?!?! I just dont understand people. A girl who is about my age like 18-19 told me why she is against gay marriage, "the bible tells me so". I was like the bible tells you to treat people unequally just because of who they love?? I told her she has problems if so.... Seriously can someone tell me where exactly in the bible it says being gay is wrong? I mean I thought God created us all, so obviously he created those who are gay that way and so we should just accept them. Sorry im sort of rambling. lol i tend to get a little carried away.
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts his parents were participating in the exorcism.

As for how people can believe stuff like that, a fairly sizable minority of people in the US believe that every word of the Bible is literally true.* According to the Book of Leviticus and some of Paul's writings in the New Testament (Jesus somehow forgot to mention it though) homosexuality is an abomination, so they're all just a bunch of dirty sinners. In my experience, people with these beliefs are also adamant that homosexuality is a choice and a learned behavior and genetics have nothing to believe with it. They have to believe that because the alternative (homosexuality is genetic)would be that God wants people to be gay and they know that's not possible because homosexuality is an abomination.

*Except for the parts that they disagree with or are inconvenient. Those are obviously metaphor, you heathen! See Mark 16:18 for an example.
post #16 of 28
I can't watch it. When will these so-called Christians realize they are not bringing people to Christ this way.

And to all non-Chrisitans, there are millions of Christians that are not like this.
post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I can't watch it. When will these so-called Christians realize they are not bringing people to Christ this way.

And to all non-Chrisitians, there are millions of Christians that are not like this.

Interestingly, I called my brother this evening to see how he did with his physio today and we were talking about the Gay Pride Parade that was held in Toronto this weekend and he is in the downtown area. He said our older brother thinks that gay people get up one morning and decide to be gay. He thinks it's a choice rather than biological. Ignorance lives everywhere. I actually didn't know that my older brother felt that way. Mind you, we live a couple thousand miles apart and don't see one another very often.
post #18 of 28
For me, the homophobe is more sick than the homosexual - their irrational hate and fear are a sign of mental illness as far as I'm concerned.[/quote]


The homosexual is not sick at all. Your "more sick" implies that the homosexual is still sick, just not as much as the homophobe.
post #19 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of Franz View Post
For me, the homophobe is more sick than the homosexual - their irrational hate and fear are a sign of mental illness as far as I'm concerned.

The homosexual is not sick at all. Your "more sick" implies that the homosexual is still sick, just not as much as the homophobe. [/quote]

It certainly wasn't meant that way and was "said" in the sense that homophobes think homosexuals are sick, but if you wish to interpret it to mean otherwise or parse the sentence to extract some specific meaning, no worries.
post #20 of 28
The biggest problem with people asking "where in the Bible does it say...." is that those people really don't want to know the answer. I can give tons of references in both Old and New Testaments where its wrong.

But I'm tired of people jumping on me because of my beliefs and the truth of what is in the Bible. I had someone ask me for all the references, then jump down my throat on how WRONG I was, etc. because I told them what was God's words - not mine or anyone else's.

Those that study the Bible will know that while the Bible was hand written by many men, the WORDS in the Bible are God-breathed, its not what man made up. Many of the writers like Paul and others will say "these are not my words, they are God-breathed words".

Some go to extremes and that is not right either (like the case above). When a person really wants to change and follow Jesus, his sins in the past are forgiven but he has to change his ways. He cannot keep doing the same wrong sin - he has to be willing to turn away from it.
post #21 of 28
But Golden, you cannot argue with the fact that Jesus, as Savior, changed some things that were in the Old Testament, such as, An Eye for an Eye.

The Greatest commandments are, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and Love your neighbor as yourself. Those are Jesus' words.
post #22 of 28
Yes, what was done was VERY wrong. Exorcism is performed for demonic posession.... as referenced in the bible. Not for human sins (which is where homosexuality, lying, murder, etc. would fall under)... No one can make / force someone to give up a "sin" and force them to ask for forgivness, etc... That is between the sinner and God.

Now, I would like to address two points that I have seen again and again, both on this board and in the media, etc....

1. If someone believes something that is different than the generally accepted "truth" or belief of the majority of our secular society, they are wrong and ignorant... Having any disagreement with common culture automatically makes you wrong ( and generally stupid).

i.e. if I believe that being gay is a sin...then I must be an ignorant, backwards, uneducated fool. also, if I believe that someone should not have sex before marriage...I am a fool...because this is seen to be something that is OK in our current culture and is shown a great deal in the media...so, it MUST be ok if the majority of society believes it.

Here's an example from this thread...by Yosemite (sorry I have no idea how to actually quote so the text is in quotations)

"He said our older brother thinks that gay people get up one morning and decide to be gay. He thinks it's a choice rather than biological. Ignorance lives everywhere."

So...because your older brother disagrees with your opinion he is ignorant? If he agreed with you...he'd be the oppisite I suppose... This is not a personal attack...I'm just trying to make a point. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion and the opinion of the majority (or what is commonly accepted as politically correct) does not make them stupid, dumb, or "ignorant".

From personal experience, I had an acquaintance relate to me how he "became gay" (his words) after several encounters with an adult (he was a minor) who, for lack of a better word, took advantage of him sexually...since those events, his feelings were changed and he began to be interested in other men / boys. Now, this is just one example and I realize there are others out there with probably different examples and situations... BUT, until someone can prove that your sexual orientation IS genetic and they can rule out ALL factors such as choice, environment, media exposure, etc... You can't say for certain either way.

Now, as for myself, I am a christian (although I do not claim to be any kind of saint...I have issues and sins that I deal with just like everyone) and I can tell you that I believe that being gay is a sin, just as lying is a sin or fornication (having sex before marriage) is a sin. It is not a greater or lesser sin...I believe that any sin is enough to seperate someone from God and all sins must be forgiven. I DO NOT hate people that are gay. Just as I do not hate people that lie or people that have committed adultry. I may "hate" the sins that people committ...i.e. I may hate that someone is committing adultry and has ruined their marriage, or I may "hate" that someone is practicing homosexuality and thus is committing a sin that is seperating them from God... But I do not hate the people committing the sins.

This is what makes it so hard for me to wrap my mind around how the people in the video coud do what they did. If I was the parent in this situation, I would have discussed the situation with my child, explained the bible and God's point of view based on his word, and prayed with my child. I would have requested prayer and continued to pray for my child that he would be moved by God's spirit to reconcile with God.

2. "tolerance" vs. "intolerance" vs. "politically correct". OK... if I believe that being gay is a sin... I am being "intolerant". To be "tolerant", I must either agree with everything that popular culture says is correct or just keep my mouth shut and not say anything when someone says an opposing view that is P.C. Basically, if someone has a view other than the accepted norm, they can't be free to voice their opinions for fear of being labled Ignorant and intolerant. . . Isn't freedom of speech, religion, and opinion what this country was built on??

IMO it is this practice that has ushered in an era of less intelligent debate and more "dogma" via silancing anything but the popular voice. Tolerance used to mean "agreeing to disagree" and being able to back up your opinion intelligently and being able to hold a civil debate. Now, to be tolerant, you have to be silent or be a "yes man" to what is popular at the current time. IMO all of us being able to coexist peacefully in our country is tolerance. I may disagree with other religions or I may disagree with popular opinion, and I should be able to say so. However, I should not be able to take physical action against said groups... i.e. if I decided that all muslims should die and tried to carry that out...Now that would be intolerance, or if I tried to banish all muslims from my community, etc. Tolerance is being able to peacefully live side-by-side with people even when you disagree with their beliefs.. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with everyones beliefs around you.

I'm sorry if this has rambled on and become slightly OT, but as this thread had already moved to bashing those that think being gay is a choice or a sin...I thought I would put in my 2 cents.

Artgecko
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
The homosexual is not sick at all. Your "more sick" implies that the homosexual is still sick, just not as much as the homophobe.
It certainly wasn't meant that way and was "said" in the sense that homophobes think homosexuals are sick, but if you wish to interpret it to mean otherwise or parse the sentence to extract some specific meaning, no worries.[/quote]

And if you want to splice it and dice it, by all means do!
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of Franz View Post
And if you want to splice it and dice it, by all means do!
Like I said, no worries - it's all good. It's often very easy to take things out of context or misunderstand them on the internet forums.
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgecko View Post
Here's an example from this thread...by Yosemite (sorry I have no idea how to actually quote so the text is in quotations)

"He said our older brother thinks that gay people get up one morning and decide to be gay. He thinks it's a choice rather than biological. Ignorance lives everywhere."

So...because your older brother disagrees with your opinion he is ignorant? If he agreed with you...he'd be the oppisite I suppose... This is not a personal attack...I'm just trying to make a point. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion and the opinion of the majority (or what is commonly accepted as politically correct) does not make them stupid, dumb, or "ignorant".
To address this portion of your post, this is IMO and IMO my brother is ignorant in my eyes if he believes it is a choice since I do not believe it is a choice. I strongly believe it has to do with hormones at birth. I've seen children that have grown up to be homosexuals who have shown the signs at a very, very early age and they weren't molested or made into homosexuals.

I also recognize that very devout Christians may be unable to accept my belief that this is a born condition because to do so would make God seem less than perfect to them. Do I think that is ignorant? Do I think it makes my brother stupid or dumb? Absolutely not - he is a pretty savvy guy. Perhaps ignorant is too strong a word - I will revise my reference to say perhaps he is in denial rather than ignorant.

That is just my opinion which we all have and are entitled to - doesn't make any of us wrong or right - just the way it is.
post #26 of 28
Hasn't the Nature vs Nurture debate been going on for decades in psychiatric circles?
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgecko View Post
From personal experience, I had an acquaintance relate to me how he "became gay" (his words) after several encounters with an adult (he was a minor) who, for lack of a better word, took advantage of him sexually...since those events, his feelings were changed and he began to be interested in other men / boys. Now, this is just one example and I realize there are others out there with probably different examples and situations... BUT, until someone can prove that your sexual orientation IS genetic and they can rule out ALL factors such as choice, environment, media exposure, etc... You can't say for certain either way.
In the example above, it certainly is possible that the acquaintance was influenced by the sexual encounter. But to say that it was a/the determining factor would seem to be a bit of a post hoc fallacy, wouldn't it. B follows A, therefore A was a/the "reason". Not necessarily so. There's no evidence to support that that the individual wouldn't have seen his homosexual tendencies come to fruition without such an incident. And even if that were the case, why is it something to be frowned upon; one could say that out of a horrible incident, came an awakening for that young man of who he really was. Without some context, I refuse to spin that event into a "tragedy" in regards to sexual orientation.

I am not trying to make light of what apparently was rape. I am merely trying to veer away from the seemingly obvious, and steer it into the unknown. Which, for "straight" people, is what homosexuality is. Period. There's nothing wrong with admitting that sometimes.

There seems to be a common argument that states unless you're projecting "gayness" from a very early age, then it must be a choice you've made in your teen or adult years. There's no accounting for what could be intense internal childhood struggle for these individuals; suppression of what is instinctual for them, all in the name of projecting what is "right" and "good". In a way, homosexuality is very much a "choice"; a choice to stop living to please others in adherence to their dogmatic beliefs that all too often are grounded in hyperbole and interpretation. A choice to find love in a harmonious environment, and to search out peer groups comprised of tolerant individuals able to recognize the fact that love and compassion are destinations with many avenues.

To the poster above, you're right, all of the potential influences you list could be valid and used to weigh, at least, how a person views homosexuality; how a person comes to validate it (or not). But can any of us seriously entertain the thought of engaging in activities that run counter to our most primal of instincts? To what end? To be trendy? To be different? Because we've made a deal with the devil and he's siezed control of our loins? I'm very much at a loss to finding the linkage between homosexuality and evil (sin).

If I try really hard at playing Devil's Advocate, looking at the other end of the spectrum, and assume, yes, that someone (not actually homosexual) would choose to live in defiance of that which drives their very being, that chooses to partner with the sex other than that which they are instinctually attracted to, I see nothing more than a very troubled individual needing a good deal of love and guidance...things that I would like to believe that my God would offer in spades, without first labeling them a sinner.
post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgecko View Post
2. "tolerance" vs. "intolerance" vs. "politically correct". OK... if I believe that being gay is a sin... I am being "intolerant". To be "tolerant", I must either agree with everything that popular culture says is correct or just keep my mouth shut and not say anything when someone says an opposing view that is P.C. Basically, if someone has a view other than the accepted norm, they can't be free to voice their opinions for fear of being labled Ignorant and intolerant. . . Isn't freedom of speech, religion, and opinion what this country was built on??
No, you're not oppressed. Nobody is taking away your right to pity, dislike, or even hate homosexuals. Fred Phelps is still able to go out and make a spectacle at the funerals of dead soldiers. Until he gets pitched in jail I think you have a hard case to make to prove that you're being oppressed. But if you want to tell a homosexual that they have less rights than you because they happen to like people of the same gender then yes, expect to be told you're intolerant. Freedom of speech works both ways. The KKK is free to come into town and make fools out of themselves, but we're also free to tell them they're a bunch of idiots.

As for the whole 'choice vs. genetic' basis for homosexuality, I think the reason it's not a settled question is because it's way more complicated than that. First, being homosexual isn't a binary proposition. There are many shades of gray between completely straight and completely gay and most people fall somewhere between the two extremes. I suspect that it's a combination of many different factors including genetics, environmental factors such as chemicals gradients in the womb, and even a little bit of choice. Scientists have been looking for the single gene that controls intelligence for years and they've pretty much given up and decided there isn't one. If there's no single gene that controls something like intelligence, it seems unlikely to me there would be one for a complex behavior such as sexual preference.
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