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post #31 of 39
We need to stay out of it. We have done enough meddling in Iran since the 1950's.

Besides, even if we did help them, they would turn on us later the way it always happens.

We helped the Taliban expel the Russians from Afghanistan and look how THEY turned on us.
post #32 of 39
Thread Starter 
Wow. I'm really surprised at the lack of empathy here.

This isn't about the US, or Obama's speech in Cairo. Seriously...do you really think most of those people heard it? It certainly wasn't on their nightly news. It isn't about oil or how this could affect the world economy.

They had an election, and they cried foul. It wasn't fair, it was cheated. And for a country with a theocracy, to say the election was rigged is to say that the leaders who were appointed by God/Allah are wrong. That's a big step. That's as big of a step as some colony to say "No taxation without representation." Only bigger.

There's reports of the guard taking axes to the protesters. Shooting them like animals. Beating old men and women until they are soaked in their own blood.

But, meh, oh well. Not our problem. It's only about the oil, right?

Maybe it is just as bad or worse in Darfur or Burma. Maybe the difference is the technology. But I DO see Neda and her country men and women who are going out against impossible odds to voice their protests. And I see the world doing nothing. I see the British and Canadians and Germans making a stronger statement than the so-called "Leader of the Free World". I see the UN, as usual, doing absolutely nothing. And I ask myself why. I ask myself what it will take. I don't mean a military coup, but why can't there be a shout out to that cry in the dark. Something to encourage them. Something to tell the evil regime that what they are doing is against everything their own religion commands, everything that humanity has evolved toward, and the rest of the world simply will not allow it to continue.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

We, as the world community, are doing nothing. And it makes me so sad I can't even put it into words.
post #33 of 39
Hmm well- I think the point is that this sort of thing doesn't happen only in Iran. It's so unfortunate and sad that the UN does nothing. It makes me mad as well. But I can't help but question, like others did why we know so much about this, why so many people are so outraged while the war in Darfur or other equally serious and unfortunate events- we take them as not our business. You may say that's not true...Well for individuals it certainly isn't, many people indeed are aware of all conflicts where crimes against humanity are committed and sympathize with the victims and are equally outraged but I think for the US as a society it is true. The Iran conflict is so popular, even people who are completely apathetic and don't know squat about world events are putting green avatars on their twitter and facebook accounts, I haven't seen anything like it for any other revolution or war or genocide that has happened recently.
Asking this question to me doesn't mean you're not sympathetic to what's going on. To the average American, oil is probably not a concern, but the media catches on quickly where there may be an economic interest rather than simply sympathy for those who are dead. When things are this popular a lot of times it's the media who is responsible. Although like I mentioned I think this is different because of the accounts of participants on twitter.

And I also agree we need to stay out of it, foreign intervention rarely helps. I know people say Iraq was a success, I leave it up to others to decide but IMO we cannot yet say.
post #34 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
Wow. I'm really surprised at the lack of empathy here.

We, as the world community, are doing nothing. And it makes me so sad I can't even put it into words.
I don't believe it is a lack of empathy, at least on my part. I just know that if the UN or the US or Canada or anyone else goes in and tries to help they will be maligned by the leaders of the country, the common folk will not ever be allowed to see the real news and how those countries are trying to help those people. They will be brainwashed and told how evil they are and how they are trying to do harm to the country and those people in turn will try to kill the soldiers that go in to help.

Just add up how many Canadian and US troops are killed by the average citizens of those countries that are trying to help them in Afghanistan. That's a pity and a waste of life of our soldiers. I get to point that I feel like saying leave them to it. If they want to kill each other off let them go ahead, I don't want any more of our soldiers killed trying to make a better life for them when it is an exercise in futility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post

And I also agree we need to stay out of it, foreign intervention rarely helps. I know people say Iraq was a success, I leave it up to others to decide but IMO we cannot yet say.
I certainly don't consider Iraq a success. Afghanistan has become a killing field of Canadian, British, US and soldiers from other countries. I have to say that intervention isn't working IMO.
post #35 of 39
Thread Starter 
I really have to apologize for making that last post much more personal than it should have been. I'm having what I call a "bad mental health day", which really means that depression is rearing its ugly head and I tend to lash out when that happens. For that, I am truly sorry. I know that the people here are some of the most caring and empathetic people in the world, from all over the world. Call it a momentary lapse of reason...

I just hear these stories, and I see these cell phone videos and hear the same and my heart just rips in two. Honestly if I were able to see and hear and put a face and a name to Darfur and other places I would likely feel the same. I do know that a big part of it is the media and the technology that makes this revolution so much more accessible than others. I get very self-absorbed with this type of thing in that I can't understand how it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone else. I know it doesn't, logically I know that.

The biggest question this really raises for me, though, is what the hell the UN is for if not for situations like this? To me it doesn't matter who is right or wrong about the actual election, but beating and killing people for speaking out should be universally condemned. It's not, and I don't understand why.
post #36 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
I really have to apologize for making that last post much more personal than it should have been. I'm having what I call a "bad mental health day", which really means that depression is rearing its ugly head and I tend to lash out when that happens. For that, I am truly sorry. I know that the people here are some of the most caring and empathetic people in the world, from all over the world. Call it a momentary lapse of reason...

I just hear these stories, and I see these cell phone videos and hear the same and my heart just rips in two. Honestly if I were able to see and hear and put a face and a name to Darfur and other places I would likely feel the same. I do know that a big part of it is the media and the technology that makes this revolution so much more accessible than others. I get very self-absorbed with this type of thing in that I can't understand how it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone else. I know it doesn't, logically I know that.

The biggest question this really raises for me, though, is what the hell the UN is for if not for situations like this? To me it doesn't matter who is right or wrong about the actual election, but beating and killing people for speaking out should be universally condemned. It's not, and I don't understand why.
I don't see a need to apologize Heidi. We all get passionate at times and this is the place to do it. I truly see your point and I do feel compassion for the innocents in all of this, the ones that truly want peace and a good life. I honestly don't know if UN intervention will help to change that. Those good folks that are trying so hard for change are being oppressed and have no hope. The only hope I can see is if the current leaders are quietly assassinated. Then what will happen. They'll get a new leader who may start out with the best of intentions but will they remain free of corruption?

I wonder if we (any of us) understand the mindset of these people. They do not behave as we think they should but does that mean they are wrong and we are right. I think the beatings, killings and all of that is so very wrong but can the UN really do anything? Can Canada? The US? I surely do not know the answer but intervention doesn't seem to work - just use Iraq as a reference.
post #37 of 39
The deafening silence coming from Obama has been interesting. We heard a lot about Iran in the campaign, presumably to sway some of the conversative hawks that were all-in when it came to Bush's Iraqi policy.

One wonders if what we're seeing in Iran is at least somewhat in response to Obama's presence as "Saviour without a cause", someone who will bring sweeping global change, with a straight-as-a-string moral compass, devoid of his own agendas. But ironically, they're getting a "Let 'em duke it out" response; at least for now. Granted, who knows what's going on behind closed doors. But I have to admit, his foreign policy is unnerving. He's been quiet on North Korea, has offered support to Khamenei and Ahmadinejad behind the scenes, and is strong arming - or at least trying to - Israel into submission in regards to the West Bank settlement issue, and of Israeli response to Iran.

The "apathy" bit I can tolerate for awhile; I realize one can't have it both ways. Many people weren't too keen on diving headfirst into Iraq on questionable grounds, and aren't wild about seeing it happen again. But adopting a "Boys will be boys" philosophy to unpredictable belligerents while seeing fit to dictate Israel's foreign and domestic policies just plain sucks.

I'm not advocating the United States sweep in and try to settle the election dispute with anything other than beancounters and tough talk. Right now, all we have with any certainty is a questionable vote count and an unfortunately violent revolt and response. Want to sit and wait and see how it pans out? Not a bad idea; any "interference" by the US might be galvanizing for the current powers-that-be in Iran, after they're done spinning it to the people.

Just looking for a little consistency. If you're going to be hands-off and cerebral, that's cool. Just be consistent. So when Israel mobilizes and sends it's F-16's to Iran, just get the hell out of the way.
post #38 of 39
I guess the biggest thing for me is I see no difference between the two that were running for President of Iran. They both suck if you ask me. So, what does it matter who wins?

If we did anything we would be the big bad America just like we always seem to be.

It is about oil, it is always about oil, it makes me sick but that is how it is.
It was about oil when Eisenhower authorized the CIA, along with the Brits to work behind the scenes to overthrow Iran's democratic government back in 1953 because the govt nationalized the oil industry. Just like Barack is nationalizing a few things here.
post #39 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I guess the biggest thing for me is I see no difference between the two that were running for President of Iran. They both suck if you ask me. So, what does it matter who wins?
It matters becausse if the people elect an oppressive fascist dictator, well it's their problem- they elected him! But, if the dictator gets into power in an illegitimate way, it's a different story to the world. But like I said earlier I would not be surprised if the election was legit and the 30% who didn't vote for Ahmadinejad are the protestors. I mean..it's crazy the kind of leaders some countries elect. Remember Hamas, the terrorist organization that was legitimately elected in a democratic process? I really makes me hopeless when I see countries elect parties and leaders like these..
Now that doesn't mean I'm not sickened about how they treat the protestors It doesn't matter what they protest about, peaceful protestations should not be handled with violence and killings.
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