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Iranian Elections

post #1 of 39
6/20/09 at 11:40am
Thread Starter 
I can't believe no one has started this discussion here.

It's coming to a boil today. There are reports on Twitter, which is the only way that Iranians can communicate with the outside world and each other, that there may be acid being poured from helicopters on the protesters. The Besiji (their elite military guard) are attacking the protesters, some reports with razor blades (a favorite of theirs) and everything else. Reports of a 16 year old girl shot in the face and chest for protesting.

The Besiji also are holding the hospitals. Wounded are being taken at all (almost) EU embassies. If the Besiji try to take the embassies it would be considered an act of war. Reports that Besiji are using ambulances to lure wounded protesters close and then shooting them.

Message to Canadians: RT from Iran: Canadians - call Foreign Office to request opening of Embassy 1-800-267-8376

Note: US doesn't have an embassy in Iran. We go through the Swiss Embassy.

http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23iranelection

You do have to be a member of Twitter to see it, but it's the real words from the people who are there. There are some reports on the news, but it's second and third hand reports as reporters were expelled from Iran as soon as the elections were questioned.

My heart goes out to those people. I feel very helpless on the other side of the world. Just saw that Obama finally called on the Iranian government to "stop the violence". At least it's something...not sure what else he could do right now.
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post #2 of 39
6/20/09 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post

My heart goes out to those people. I feel very helpless on the other side of the world.
I am reading on Twitter, Thanks for posting that. I cant believe how many posts are coming a minute.

They are reporting a "full Revolution" ..... someone just said "Iran isnt falling, its standing up".

I cannot imagine the amount of deaths that are happening, just has I type this. My heart goes out to all of these people, too.
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post #3 of 39
6/20/09 at 12:54pm
We're getting reports on German news channels (which don't dare use lights) that the police are using boiling water against demonstrators. There was some footage of protestors burning police motorcycles. I'm not sure what to think of the Twitter coverage, because many of the tweets are second or third-hand accounts.
There are huge protests of Iranian exiles in Paris and Hamburg.
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post #4 of 39
6/20/09 at 12:56pm
There is a lot of graphic and disturbing videos on Twitter.

They are reporting here, that they are throwing people into fire.
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post #5 of 39
6/20/09 at 1:11pm
What one man will do to keep control of power. The election was rigged the people of Iran deserve to have an honest fair and just election. Iran is a country so deeply rooted in culture and now all that creativity is being suprssed. I feel so sorry for Iran and I wish that the Iranian people could be free (these comments from me are a bit pre-mature but from what little I've read this is how I feel) Thanks for posting the link and bringing this crucial topic to our attention.
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post #6 of 39
6/20/09 at 1:23pm
When I first heard that elctions were taking place in Iran I said "Huh?". My next thought was that there's no way Ahmadinejad is going to give up any power. I don't think it comes as a surprise that he's being backed 100% by another hardliner, albeit one with even more power, in Khameini.
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post #7 of 39
6/20/09 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussianKitten View Post
What one man will do to keep control of power. The election was rigged the people of Iran deserve to have an honest fair and just election. Iran is a country so deeply rooted in culture and now all that creativity is being suprssed. I feel so sorry for Iran and I wish that the Iranian people could be free (these comments from me are a bit pre-mature but from what little I've read this is how I feel) Thanks for posting the link and bringing this crucial topic to our attention.
There is no proof the election was rigged, no one will know who really won. And rather than speculating it's best to just say "we don't know" IMO. Well you can tell I don't fully buy the fact that the election was rigged in the first place. I would not be surprised to find out the majority of Iran prefers the fascist type traditional anti western leader. And of course the ones who do not support Ahmadinajad are the louder bunch, educated elite,the ones who can get followers quickly but them being a minority would not surprise me at all.
I feel really sorry for those poor people going through this as well I hope this gets resolved for them quickly. I was just listening to NPR the other day and the reports seemed promising that Ahmadinajad might let them vote again, and now just a few days later it's gone crazy!
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post #8 of 39
6/20/09 at 3:05pm
I think where most people balked and thought it was rigged was the speed at which some 40 million hand-written ballots were counted.
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post #9 of 39
6/20/09 at 9:56pm
Thread Starter 
There are tweets/reports saying that the Basiji are doing home invasions now. CNN had a video - you couldn't see anything, but the sounds were unmistakable. Terror, sheer terror. Screams. Breaking in doors. Gunshots.

BBC confirmed that the Basiji headquarters was blown up/burned via the natural gas line to the building. This was after they locked themselves inside. Brutal, just brutal.

One tweet said it so well - It's no wonder Ahmadinijad can deny the holocaust. Mass murders/genocide is a part of daily life for him.

Just as a minor point, while the thing that started the protests were the elections the President is almost a figurehead. The real power is the Supreme Leader, and Ayatollah Khomeini. He is appointed by a religious Council, and is appointed for life. That's where the real power lies, and has since the Islamic Revolution of 1978. They are not even to say his name, but today the chants included "Death to Khomeini". That says a lot.
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post #10 of 39
6/21/09 at 2:34am
I just watched a video of a female protester being murdered in the middle of the street in cold bold. 6 men against one female. And they are ganging up on the students too...

Iran will fall to the Fascists. With no outside government willing to intercede, these people will be silenced. And then they will resent those who were powerful enough to step in and assist and didn't.

This is a very sad world we are living in. When you think about how very alone we as humans are in this universe, it seems so pointless to be selfish and cruel on this tiny, pathetic planet.
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post #11 of 39
6/21/09 at 6:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
Just as a minor point, while the thing that started the protests were the elections the President is almost a figurehead. The real power is the Supreme Leader, and Ayatollah Khomeini. He is appointed by a religious Council, and is appointed for life. That's where the real power lies, and has since the Islamic Revolution of 1978. They are not even to say his name, but today the chants included "Death to Khomeini". That says a lot.
There's a lot of confusion between the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the leader of the 1979 Islamic revolution, who died in 1989, and Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iranian president from 1981 to 1989, and now the Supreme Leader.

BBC has a little Who's Who that helps you keep the players straight.
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post #12 of 39
6/21/09 at 8:42am
just saw another video of a woman shot in the heart It was so upsetting and sad If ahmadinajad and his administration is using such brutality and violence to suppress peaceful revolts, shouldn't he be charged with crimes against humanity the way Saddam was? I'm just shocked how this kind of thing can go on, how the world and worldwide organizations like the UN and NATO allow this type of thing...
Well I know there is no simple answer It is indeed a sad world we live in..
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post #13 of 39
6/21/09 at 2:13pm
I'm not sure how much we can do. We overthrew their govt once and ended up with the revolution in 1979. Whichever side we come down behind we will be looked upon as suspicious.

The situation has become more complicated as they have started to arrest the daughter and other associates of Rafsanjani. He is in a position that could kick out Khamenei and has been more moderate. He was president from 1989 to 1997 and was attempting to open communication with the West when Bush called Iran part of the Axis of Evil. He replaced in the next election with Ahmadinejad.

I suspect that they will continue to come down hard to squash the protests, but by doing that, they are losing credibility with the people and it will come back to haunt them. I do not think the hardliners have enough behind them to keep a heavy handed control of the country.
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post #14 of 39
6/21/09 at 2:31pm
There isn't anything that the U.S. can do. Our involvement with Iranian politics through a C.I.A. coup in 1953 that installed the Shah led directly to the unrest that fueled the 1979 revolution and all the hatred and resentment of the U.S. among the older generation in Iran today. The people in power are trying to say that the U.S. and England are engineering the protests now, if we don't publicly stay neutral we will be weakening the position of the opposition. There will probably be an increasingly violent crackdown and eventually the opposition will probably be put down. They will have accomplished something by getting through to the leaders how large the movement is and how unhappy they are with the way things are being run. Maybe this will be the beginning of change in Iran. Unfortunately many will die and others will be jailed for long terms.
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post #15 of 39
6/21/09 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragulescuGirl View Post
I just watched a video of a female protester being murdered in the middle of the street in cold bold. 6 men against one female. And they are ganging up on the students too...

Iran will fall to the Fascists. With no outside government willing to intercede, these people will be silenced. And then they will resent those who were powerful enough to step in and assist and didn't.

This is a very sad world we are living in. When you think about how very alone we as humans are in this universe, it seems so pointless to be selfish and cruel on this tiny, pathetic planet.
I think the video you are thinking of is that of a woman, now called Seda. She was shot in the heart by sniper fire from a roof, while protesting along with her father. The men around her are trying to save her, not tring to harm her. They are pressing down on her to try to stop the bleeding. But as seen in the video, that was a futile attempt.
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post #16 of 39
6/21/09 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trillcat View Post
I think the video you are thinking of is that of a woman, now called Seda. She was shot in the heart by sniper fire from a roof, while protesting along with her father. The men around her are trying to save her, not tring to harm her. They are pressing down on her to try to stop the bleeding. But as seen in the video, that was a futile attempt.
Maybe we aren't watching the same video... I'm not sure how putting your hands on someone's throat stops bleeding, or covering their mouth and nose with your hands. If you wanted to top bleeding wouldn't you apply pressure to where the gunshot wound is?

Also, I saw this same method of murder used on videos of college students being killed in their dorms. They shoot/stab the victim (sometimes) and then a group of men hold the victim down and apply pressure to the throat, mouth, and nose to asphyxiate them.

EDIT TO ADD: I stand corrected. The video is the same and in a second watching I can see that they are applying pressure to her chest. I assumed they were strangling her due to a video I had seen of students being murdered in this manner in the dorms.
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post #17 of 39
6/21/09 at 4:42pm
I saw the same video..It was so sad My heart goes out to those people
I think the US government and other western democracies are doing something, just not officially and publicly. Well I surely hope that they are but I know so much goes on without the public's knowledge, especially so much that went on during the Vietnam war as early as the 1950s and the public never knew about so I'm sure the US is somehow indirectly supporting the green revolution.
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post #18 of 39
6/21/09 at 4:47pm
Thread Starter 
It was Ahmadinijad that was blaming the US and British in a speech to a group of Clerics, saying it is our "policies of interference" that was to blame. IMO it doesn't matter what we say or don't say. The hardliners control the media and what is officially shown to the people. Why not come out with a strong statement supporting freedom and condemning beating and killing innocent people? Obama has his head in the clouds if he honestly thinks he can normalize official relations with this regime, regardless of what statements he does or doesn't make about this.
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post #19 of 39
6/21/09 at 6:46pm
Fox had, almost, non stop coverage on it yesterday.
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post #20 of 39
6/23/09 at 2:52am
Has anyone read the Washington Post article that does a simple statistical analysis of the election results?
The Devil is in the Digits

It calculates a 1 in 200 chance that the election was fair.
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post #21 of 39
6/23/09 at 3:19pm
Couldn't edit my post for some reason, the womans name was Neda, not Seda, that was a typo.
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post #22 of 39
6/24/09 at 8:00am
How is this any different than what has gone on in Burma and Darfor and other countries? This country doesn't even think about helping those people, why is this different?
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post #23 of 39
6/24/09 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
How is this any different than what has gone on in Burma and Darfor and other countries? This country doesn't even think about helping those people, why is this different?
Excellent question! I daresay it probably has something to do with "oil".
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post #24 of 39
6/24/09 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
How is this any different than what has gone on in Burma and Darfor and other countries? This country doesn't even think about helping those people, why is this different?
I was thinking about that too...I think it may be because Iranians (the protesting ones) are expecting support from the US and think that we automatically should care and give them support after what we did in Iraq. Look at all the twitter coverage, that is all them not the US media. I dunno...I'm not sure but just what I'm inclined to think.
I am sure I would feel so much more strongly about other genocides or wars around the world if I had seen videos of people dying and more coverage on them.
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post #25 of 39
6/24/09 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
I was thinking about that too...I think it may be because Iranians (the protesting ones) are expecting support from the US and think that we automatically should care and give them support after what we did in Iraq. Look at all the twitter coverage, that is all them not the US media. I dunno...I'm not sure but just what I'm inclined to think.
I am sure I would feel so much more strongly about other genocides or wars around the world if I had seen videos of people dying and more coverage on them.
The protesting people are expecting freedom. Slaves trying to be free.
Tech is an advantage here, we SEE the human toll it takes.
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post #26 of 39
6/24/09 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trillcat View Post
The protesting people are expecting freedom. Slaves trying to be free.
Revolutionary movements such as this one require mobilization,leadership. If you think it's all just slaves trying to be free you must be aware that isn't the whole story. Slaves have lived for thousands of years, oppressed without revolting. It takes more than lack of freedom and oppression to uprise the way they are uprising. And I think an element to it, is their hopes of foreign aid. Some of the motivation and optimism IMO comes from their knowledge that the US helped Iraq get rid of a dictator, went to war with Vietnam to try to stop communists, helped Kuwait keep its independence....I mean come on they must be thinking that if they are loud enough and persistent enough the world will come to their help. I'm just speculating here but I don't think there is much harm in that.
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post #27 of 39
6/24/09 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Revolutionary movements such as this one require mobilization,leadership. If you think it's all just slaves trying to be free you must be aware that isn't the whole story. Slaves have lived for thousands of years, oppressed without revolting. It takes more than lack of freedom and oppression to uprise the way they are uprising. And I think an element to it, is their hopes of foreign aid. Some of the motivation and optimism IMO comes from their knowledge that the US helped Iraq get rid of a dictator, went to war with Vietnam to try to stop communists, helped Kuwait keep its independence....I mean come on they must be thinking that if they are loud enough and persistent enough the world will come to their help. I'm just speculating here but I don't think there is much harm in that.
I would hope if I screamed loud enough I would be heard, then maybe again I would just be shot in the heart.
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post #28 of 39
6/24/09 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trillcat View Post
I would hope if I screamed loud enough I would be heard, then maybe again I would just be shot in the heart.
Hmm...clearly we can't analyze the motivation of single individuals. But we can try to analyze the whole movement's motivation.
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post #29 of 39
6/24/09 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Revolutionary movements such as this one require mobilization,leadership. If you think it's all just slaves trying to be free you must be aware that isn't the whole story. Slaves have lived for thousands of years, oppressed without revolting. It takes more than lack of freedom and oppression to uprise the way they are uprising. And I think an element to it, is their hopes of foreign aid. Some of the motivation and optimism IMO comes from their knowledge that the US helped Iraq get rid of a dictator, went to war with Vietnam to try to stop communists, helped Kuwait keep its independence....I mean come on they must be thinking that if they are loud enough and persistent enough the world will come to their help. I'm just speculating here but I don't think there is much harm in that.
The unfortunate part of all that is that as soon as the troops withdraw, the country goes back to the same old, same old. The tyrants take over again, the poor people get beaten down - same old shite, different day.

I don't see outside intervention helping these peoples at all. They've been in-fighting amongst themselves for centuries and none of them will let go of the grudges. The hatred and fear-mongering is taught from generation to generation and until at least one generation on all sides decides to forget the past and go forward, I don't see much change happening. Think about it - ask a white supremacy person why they hate Jews or blacks - it was taught to them by their parents and their parents before them. No Jew or black person harmed them or gave them cause to hate - they just hate because they have been taught that's what you do if you are a white supremacist. I believe this to be true. Look at Ireland as an example - they were fighting for years over religion and what happened centuries ago. How dumb is that?

No, until people are willing to let go of hate that they were taught, forget the past and go forward, there will be no change and no peace in this world.
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post #30 of 39
6/24/09 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
The unfortunate part of all that is that as soon as the troops withdraw, the country goes back to the same old, same old. The tyrants take over again, the poor people get beaten down - same old shite, different day.

I don't see outside intervention helping these peoples at all. They've been in-fighting amongst themselves for centuries and none of them will let go of the grudges. The hatred and fear-mongering is taught from generation to generation and until at least one generation on all sides decides to forget the past and go forward, I don't see much change happening. Think about it - ask a white supremacy person why they hate Jews or blacks - it was taught to them by their parents and their parents before them. No Jew or black person harmed them or gave them cause to hate - they just hate because they have been taught that's what you do if you are a white supremacist. I believe this to be true. Look at Ireland as an example - they were fighting for years over religion and what happened centuries ago. How dumb is that?

No, until people are willing to let go of hate that they were taught, forget the past and go forward, there will be no change and no peace in this world.
I agree. Military intervention would only put us or some other country (or countries) in the same precarious situation we/they always end up in in the Middle East. Iran is a predominately Shi'ite nation. Trust me, they would forget about their own internal problems long enough to drive out the foreign troops before turning their attention back to each other over the election.
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