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Wysong reply to nurture critique

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
Thank you for the kindness in giving us the opportunity to respond.

There is much misinformation being circulated about pet foods, particularly with the advent of the Internet. Anyone can proclaim themselves an expert, and there is no lack of trusting people who will perpetuate sensational claims.

This will help you understand Wysong's position with regard to many such claims, particularly as they relate to Wysong products.

For starters, consider that Wysong has been fed to tens of thousands of animals through multiple generations for some thirty years with the exact opposite results (http://www.wysong.net/_html/testimonials.shtml) that some self-proclaimed pet food gurus are claiming. We have grown by word of mouth because of dramatic health results. We obviously could not have survived and would not continue to grow if what is implied in the claims is true.

Secondly, our company is headed by Dr. Wysong who has authored some 14 books on health and nutrition, invented hundreds of medical, health, and nutrition products, and custom built an entire food processing plant. We also have the confidence of over 260 veterinary clinical consultants countrywide. Ask the originator of the claims what has given them the scientific knowledge and expertise to speak with authority to guide the public.

Go to these links for specific replies to your questions/allegations:

A reply to the critique of the Nurture label you sent: A Critique Of The Nurture Label
A Critique Of The Nurture Label
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Ingredients: Chicken Mostly water so really fat is the main ingredient , Chicken Giblets I prefer no organs in dry food and this could be an assortment of a lot of different things, Pheasant see chicken, Poultry Fat, BUT what is preserving it ??.. Ground Brown Rice, Ground Oat Groats LOW LOW quality, Whole Egg, DL-Methionine, Salt IMHO too high , Taurine, Lecithin, Citric Acid can be chemical , Coconut OIL is actually very good unsure about just fruit, Sage Extract, Rosemary Extract, Dried Kelp, Garlic Look up heinz anemia and make your personal decision I only use under a vets care for acute issues, Black Pepper, Artichoke Pepper is a ??able as is artichoke, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus lactis Fermentation Product, Dried Yeast Culture, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus niger Fermentation Product some argue using this IMHO I have no issue when this far down, Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.

The “above critique†is in italics and broken apart to permit addressing each claim.
XXX RESPONSE EMBEDDED LIKE THIS

Ingredients: Chicken Mostly water so really fat is the main ingredient
XXX That would mean that animals in the wild that eat their natural diet are eating mostly fat too. That is obviously untrue. Also, look at the guaranteed analysis, the protein % is 35, the fat % is 15.5.

, Chicken Giblets I prefer no organs in dry food and this could be an assortment of alot of different things
XXX “Preference†is based upon what scientific information? Giblets are not undefined ingredient – heart, liver, gizzard.

, Pheasant see chicken, Poultry Fat, BUT what is preserving it ??..
XXX The antioxidants are in the list below: coconut oil, sage, rosemary, citric acid, vitamin E.

Ground Brown Rice, Ground Oat Groats LOW LOW quality
XXX Says who and compared to what? If these ingredients are not desired, use our Archetype all meat products.

, Whole Egg, DL-Methionine, Salt IMHO too high
XXX Provide the science that the whole natural salt in the product is too high. We have thirty years of evidence and tens of thousands of animals through multiple generations that prove otherwise.

, Taurine, Lecithin, Citric Acid can be chemical
XXX All Nutrients are chemicals.

, Coconut OIL is actually very good unsure about just fruit
XXX Unclear what that means.

, Sage Extract, Rosemary Extract, Dried Kelp, Garlic Look up heinz anemia and make your personal decision I only use under a vets care for acute issues
XXX No evidence it causes this problem at the doses used, but huge evidence of garlic’s benefits. The dose makes the poison – water and oxygen can be toxic too.

, Black Pepper, Artichoke Pepper is a ??able as is artichoke
XXX Piperin from pepper dramatically enhances nutrient absorption. Artichoke is an excellent source of prebiotics.

, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus lactis Fermentation Product, Dried Yeast Culture, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus niger Fermentation Product some argue using this IMHO I have no issue when this far down.
XXX On what scientific basis is it questionable?


Regarding starch sources in pet foods: Are grains healthy?
What Are The Most Healthy Grains, Legumes And Starches?
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Q: I heard that I should avoid wheat, corn, and soy, and seek pet foods with tapioca, potato and rice because they are healthier. Is that true?

A: Separating various grains and legumes and then making claims about superiority is a marketing tactic and has little or nothing to do with good cat and dog nutrition. Health is achieved by varying the diet and supplementing with raw cat and dog foods and grocery bought foods as described in the Wysong Optimal Health Programâ„¢.

If the nutritional value of the ingredients you mentioned are measured, the opposite of what you have been told is true:

All Values Per 100 g of Food Source



* Essential - Needs to be provided via Diet Source: USDA, National Agricultural Library - Food & Information Nutrition Center www.fnic.nal.usda.gov/nal


Regarding the presence or absence of certain ingredients: How pet food companies play the ingredient game. http://www.wysong.net/learn/entry/39/
Regarding whether fresh meat or meat meal is better: Fresh meat vs. meat meals. http://www.wysong.net/learn/entry/50/
Regarding the use of giblets: Are giblets good food? http://www.wysong.net/learn/entry/100/
Regarding garlic: Is garlic good or bad?




Our reasons for including garlic in Wysong pet foods are myriad.

Garlic has been shown in clinical studies to have antioxidant, anti-tumor, antimicrobial, anticoagulant, immunostimulant, and antihepatotoxic (liver) capabilities (to name a few). Further, it also has been found to lower cholesterol, lower blood pressure, prevent cancer, treat diarrhea, provide folic acid, and it is an excellent source of beneficial oligosaccharides (prebiotics).

There are numerous articles out there regarding the toxicity of Garlic in dogs. The toxicity of Garlic, or anything for that matter, is dose-dependent. (See The Myth of 100% Complete and Balanced Pet Foods.) In many cases that which is toxic at a certain dose is beneficial at another. Beneficial levels of garlic are used in Wysong pet diets.

Wysong pet diets are the result of many years of research seeking the most beneficial natural ingredients. Ingredients have been selected based upon the weight of scientific and traditional experience in their use


Regarding salt: What is Wysong Whole Salt?
http://www.wysong.net/learn/entry/106/

Go to these links to understand the unique merits of Wysong products:
Special Wysong Pet Food Features
Wysong Processing and Preservation Methods
Meats

To view the entire Learn section of the website, which contains dozens of articles about pet foods and nutrition, including numerous pet food myths, please click here: http://www.wysong.net/learn/.

For a more comprehensive explanation of what does and does not matter with pet feeding, see The Truth About Pet Foods, by Dr. Wysong.

If you need any further clarification, or if you have a question not addressed in one of these articles, please let me know.

OY
post #2 of 18
I suggest UTILIZING non work or Wysong materials in your arguments ...

I have read the Wysong pages before and then discussed them among various vets NONE of which agree with most of it . These vets range from old farm types to oriental medicine vets , a couple have rare nutrition degrees .

Your rebuttals have numerous holes .
post #3 of 18
Thread Starter 
Sharky
twasnt my rebuttal but wysongs
I appreciate your replies and time
post #4 of 18
You have a PM... I try not to base anything I write on ONE document unless it is a AFFCO ingredient profile or out of the MAINLY used vet Manual( which states CATS and DOGS have NO NEED for ANY CARBOHYDRATES ... it is not me or anyone on here making that up )
post #5 of 18
Wow. I am impressed at the length of response they provided to you.

The depth at which they backed up their claims is impressive. Not many food companies would dissect everything like they did

Of course, any company will toot their own horn to sell their product or ideas.... most humans do this as well. So while not 100% sure of their response, personally, I like it alot, and it has explained alot to me. Thank you for posting it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sharky: I'd be interested in you elaborating on your statement of
Quote:
Your rebuttals have numerous holes
Would you please indulge us, so that we all can be educated on the holes in their statements?

thanks.
post #6 of 18
Well the info about there really not being a KNOWN safe garlic level for all cats is easily avail.

The oat groats is PER AFFCO ( which every country will be slightly different ) but oat groats are NOT a human grade but a feed grade ( ie pig food) at least according to AFFCO book I read ( it was a few yrs old )

Giblets are also NOT always defined as heart , liver , gizzard( have you ever tried to get an animal to eat a cooked gizzard ??)... Meow mix define there giblets right on the pouch I would expect no less of a "premium " company

Chicken on a DRY food label is 66% water , and after cooking it does not have the same wt as a meal , THIS is also easily accessed info .

Basically that response is a common computer type answer that if you look up each item you can fairly easily find hole.. Plus without some info not of that site most of us would be suspicious

Salt amount s are variable I prefer NOT to see REGULAR table salt high up , think human
post #7 of 18
While I agree with Sharky on this food and would not feed it to my cats, I can say that there's nothing wrong with oat groats in themselves. They are just whole oats, not processed in the ways that are necessary to make them human-edible.

That said, I don't think oats are appropriate for cats in any form.
post #8 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by momto3cats View Post
While I agree with Sharky on this food and would not feed it to my cats, I can say that there's nothing wrong with oat groats in themselves. They are just whole oats, not processed in the ways that are necessary to make them human-edible.

That said, I don't think oats are appropriate for cats in any form.
Thank you for the clarification... I should have said exactly that... I do WELCOME clarifications on what is written by me if you can as sometimes I write like a second grader
post #9 of 18
automaton2 - Thanks for the post. I took a quick look at some of the information on the Wysong site. Lots of interesting stuff. It will take some time to read and absorb it though!
post #10 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
Well the info about there really not being a KNOWN safe garlic level for all cats is easily avail.
Looking into this one now actually, so far I've found a few vet statements such as:
Quote:
Large amounts of garlic will produce similar toxicity problems in both dogs and cats. I think that the amount required is not likely to be eaten by a cat but there are probably a few dogs who would lap up a container of spilled garlic.
source: http://www.vetinfo.com/dtoxin.html

Quote:
Sharky said:
Giblets are also NOT always defined as heart , liver , gizzard( have you ever tried to get an animal to eat a cooked gizzard ??)... Meow mix define there giblets right on the pouch I would expect no less of a "premium " company
Nope, never tried to feed a gizzard because I've never actually had one to try. This one doesn't really seem like a hole in their statement, more of a personal disagreement.

The AAFCO has no definition for giblets so I'm assuming the correct definition of giblets is the same as what we know as giblets that come with our chickens and such. I found this info on gizzards.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-gizzards.htm Apparantly people like to eat them too... I'd have no problems feeding a gizzard to my cats, considerring that in the wild, cats will eat birds which have gizzards.

Quote:
Sharky said:
Chicken on a DRY food label is 66% water , and after cooking it does not have the same wt as a meal , THIS is also easily accessed info .
Indeed, very easy. Some interesting reading about meat vs meat meal, and what the standards are, etc. from the FDA.

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/.../ucm047113.htm

and a quote from the above link that has definately decided which one I would rather see first

Quote:
However, meat is very high in moisture (approximately 75% water). On the other hand, water and fat are removed from meat meal, so it is only 10% moisture (what's left is mostly protein and minerals). If we could compare both products on a dry matter basis (mathematically "remove" the water from both ingredients), one could see that the second product had more animal-source protein from meat meal than the first product had from meat, even though the ingredient list suggests otherwise.

That is not to say that the second product has more "meat" than the first, or in fact, any meat at all. Meat meal is not meat per se, since most of the fat and water have been removed by rendering. Ingredients must be listed by their "common or usual" name. Most ingredients on pet food labels have a corresponding definition in the AAFCO Official Publication. For example, "meat" is defined as the "clean flesh of slaughtered mammals and is limited to...the striate muscle...with or without the accompanying and overlying fat and the portions of the skin, sinew, nerve and blood vessels which normally accompany the flesh." On the other hand, "meat meal" is "the rendered product from mammal tissues, exclusive of any added blood, hair, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents." Thus, in addition to the processing, it could also contain parts of animals one would not think of as "meat."
AAFCO definition of chicken: http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglossary/g/chicken.htm
AAFCO definition of chicken meal:
http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglos...hickenmeal.htm


Quote:
Sharky said:
Basically that response is a common computer type answer that if you look up each item you can fairly easily find hole.. Plus without some info not of that site most of us would be suspicious
So far I have yet to find any holes in their statement, which personally doesn't sound like it was computer generated. I highly doubt they get many people sending in one person's assessment of their ingredient list so how would it be possible to comp generate that response?

I'm still looking tho.....what an informative discussion indeed. I'm glad I now have a clear definition of meat vs meat meal.

Quote:
Sharky said:
Salt amount s are variable I prefer NOT to see REGULAR table salt high up , think human
Makes sense, although some sodium is required, and I would be curious at to the total sodium % of the food. I worry more about sodium % over salt on the label.

I found this:

Quote:
Salt remains the most cost-effective, prudent source of supplemental sodium and chloride in the diet and should stay on ingredient panels for the foreseeable future. Rather than play on the confusion, the petfood industry should strive to educate consumers.
regarding salt in pet food.

source: http://www.petfoodindustry.com/ViewA....aspx?id=20326


Wow, lots of info to absorb.....Quitting smoking has lead me to research more LOL. This is a good thing.


ETA: Personally, I wouldn't feed this food because of the high amount of grains, but I haven't seen the company make any false points yet.... still researching tho.
post #11 of 18
Quote:
From Snake_Lady: Nope, never tried to feed a gizzard because I've never actually had one to try. This one doesn't really seem like a hole in their statement, more of a personal disagreement.

The AAFCO has no definition for giblets so I'm assuming the correct definition of giblets is the same as what we know as giblets that come with our chickens and such. I found this info on gizzards.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-gizzards.htm Apparantly people like to eat them too... I'd have no problems feeding a gizzard to my cats, considerring that in the wild, cats will eat birds which have gizzards.
We eat chicken gizzard and chicken hearts in Brazil - it is very common in any household; I LOVE IT!!
Chicken heart is actually one of the most common meats served ins Brazilian BBQ (Churrascaria) restaurants, unfortunately I have yet to find a place in the US that serves it. As far as I know, it is very nutritious; at least that's what I always heard growing up.
post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinalima View Post
We eat chicken gizzard and chicken hearts in Brazil - it is very common in any household; I LOVE IT!!
Chicken heart is actually one of the most common meats served ins Brazilian BBQ (Churrascaria) restaurants, unfortunately I have yet to find a place in the US that serves it. As far as I know, it is very nutritious; at least that's what I always heard growing up.
We also ate the gizzard, hearts and liver of the chicken. Mom put them in the pan with the chicken when she roasted a chicken. Nowadays when we buy chickens from the big supermarkets none of those things are left in them. Used to be a few years ago the gizzard, heart and liver would be in a bag inside the chicken. I would also chop them up to add to the stuffing.

We also ate beef tongue and heart, usually sliced cold for breakfast with homemade bread and tea. Dad used to put a bit of vinegar on them and salt and pepper.
post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
We also ate the gizzard, hearts and liver of the chicken. Mom put them in the pan with the chicken when she roasted a chicken. Nowadays when we buy chickens from the big supermarkets none of those things are left in them. Used to be a few years ago the gizzard, heart and liver would be in a bag inside the chicken. I would also chop them up to add to the stuffing.

We also ate beef tongue and heart, usually sliced cold for breakfast with homemade bread and tea. Dad used to put a bit of vinegar on them and salt and pepper.
It's really too bad you can't find it (gizzards and chicken heart) here in the US. In Brazil we just go to the butcher and ask for a pound of it; it is also sold in any supermarket... My favrite BBQ meat is chicken heart.
I LOVE tongue in madera sauce, but never ate beef heart.
post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinalima View Post
We eat chicken gizzard and chicken hearts in Brazil - it is very common in any household; I LOVE IT!!
Chicken heart is actually one of the most common meats served ins Brazilian BBQ (Churrascaria) restaurants, unfortunately I have yet to find a place in the US that serves it. As far as I know, it is very nutritious; at least that's what I always heard growing up.
The Rodizio (sp) in this area serves it. I passed.
post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbysMom View Post
The Rodizio (sp) in this area serves it. I passed.
Oh, you shouldn't have - it is delicious!!!!!!!!!! Churrascaria Rodizio - rodizio is right... yummmmmmm. By the way, next time you go, the best meat in "Picanha" (pick-ahn-yeh).
post #16 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake_Lady View Post
The AAFCO has no definition for giblets so I'm assuming the correct definition of giblets is the same as what we know as giblets that come with our chickens and such. I found this info on gizzards.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-gizzards.htm Apparantly people like to eat them too... I'd have no problems feeding a gizzard to my cats, considerring that in the wild, cats will eat birds which have gizzards.
For what it's worth here's what the USDA has to say about giblets :

http://http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact...fety/index.asp

Quote:
Giblets (pronounced JIBB-letz; also GIBB-letz) are the heart, liver and gizzard of poultry.
The giblets, including gizzards, are commonly included in raw pet food recipes including the one I use. Hearts in particular are high in taurine.
post #17 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
Well the info about there really not being a KNOWN safe garlic level for all cats is easily avail.
I can't find where they say this. In the rebuttal they say (my added bold):

Quote:
There are numerous articles out there regarding the toxicity of Garlic in dogs. The toxicity of Garlic, or anything for that matter, is dose-dependent. (See The Myth of 100% Complete and Balanced Pet Foods.) In many cases that which is toxic at a certain dose is beneficial at another. Beneficial levels of garlic are used in Wysong pet diets.
post #18 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
I can't find where they say this. In the rebuttal they say (my added bold):
Correct and FOR many of us the BENIFICIAL level is NONE based on a few small studies ( yet another that I would like a huge study ) that have shown the "beneficial " and Toxic levels are often the same depending on the cat ..


Thank you for the gizzards talk ... I will also pass as when I cooked them not even the dog would eat ( though the raw ones were great for teeth cleanings).I must have cooked them wrong or something. YES many humans and home cooked and raw feed animals eat by products and animal organs, these are FRESH and whether served raw or cooked are in relatively small amounts in relation to muscle meat . I noted IMHO that it was my opinion based on the nutrient levels of said items and the fat soluble vitamins I CHOOSE not to use foods with them as IMHO I believe and so do a few vets I have talked with that it can change the percent s in a dry matter ....

And Yes salt will likely stay in many foods but there are ones that use salts attached to other nutrients and in smaller quantities... The recent recall of a pre mix mix up also makes me IMHO feel better about table salt not being high up ( a adult human should only consume a 1/4 teaspoon a day )... Salt is also used as a flavoring aid ( ie food did not taste good enough so add salt )


As with all things research compare and contrast and come up with your own thoughts ... I happen to like Wysongs RX diets as most make sense and have ingredients closer to what many of us on here are willing to use ...
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