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Attempted introduction

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
It didn't go so well,lol. I have posted here before looking for a breed that would get to similar size of my current kitty. He is a domestic short hair who is rather large for a mix breed. he is 24lbs right now, and is not over weight. Anyway, a local cat rescuer with the help of my sister picked up a abandoned male flame point siamese. He is about six months old and gorgeous. My sister took him to the vet, had him tested, recieved shots and had him fixed. however, he is VERY vocal and energetic, and was just too much for my sisters husband. he is like my kitty, beefy, he talks alot about everything, and like most siamese is loud.

anyway, tonight my sister brought him over to see what my cat thought of him. My cat is very easy going with other cats and has never been agressive, however, he does play rough, so smaller cats easilly feel domminated and bullied by him. I thought I found the perfect match, because this gorgeous flame point isnt full grown and is already over 17 pounds...and is very lovable and friendly. my sister said he had no bad habits and got along well with her two females.

Unfortunately for me, the male flame point decided he hated beefy. we allowed them to sniff each other, and everything was fine, we waited a hour, and since they both seemed fine with eachother, we let the flame point out of the carrier he was in, and everything seemed fine...untill beefy sniffed the flamepoints tail...apperantly that was a no no. the flame point flared up and hissed at him, and the behavior just got worse. my cat did not return hostilities, but he wouldnt back down, which the flame point wanted him to...the flame point kept trying to get him to move, and beefy wouldnt. I had my sister scoop him up, and put him back in the carrier. my sister said the flame point had not behaved that way before, and actually went so far as biting my sister when she picked him up.

I am sure I could have been more carefull with the introduction, but they both behaved so well at first and the flame point had reacted so well to other cats(as beefy has too), so when they seemed accepting of each other, we let him out of the carrier after an hour.

I had been around the siamese before this, and was just a little angel, but for whatever reason, he hated my cat. so, back to casually looking. I don't plan on buying a pure bred cat at this point, i will just wait untill one is rescued that will work for us and beefy too.

p.s. got a new pic of beefy...he isnt too happy in this shot because he wanted to sit on my lap and i wouldnt let him cause i wanted a picture.

post #2 of 18
Originally Posted by Reun View Post

I am sure I could have been more carefull with the introduction, but they both behaved so well at first and the flame point had reacted so well to other cats(as beefy has too), so when they seemed accepting of each other, we let him out of the carrier after an hour.
Having two cats I know are cat sociale and friendly, I wouldnt overdo the introduction me either.
Yours attempt was thus quite OK.

Although I myself would let make this slightly different: Take the biffy to another room. Let the flamepoint out of the carrier in the meeting room. Let him examine the room alone in his pace. One hour may be enough. Or longer if seems necessary. Back with flamepoint into the carrier.

After it, your introduction...

This way, the flamepoint would feel a little more secure, and thus, not be so touchy about beefy smelling at the tail...

A Feliway spray or diffuser may also be useful. Normally NOT necessary, but I recommend you to use in next attempt.

There IS a possiblity these two cats, although both friendly, do have wrong "person chemistry" for each other. But it is waay to early to say this after one short attempt.

I didnt quite understood the last of your post. What is going on? Do you have them separated for a new try later on? A more elaborated, systematic one.
Or will you try to have another cat instead?? - If so, what happens with the flamepoint?

Good luck!
post #3 of 18
Thread Starter 
Yes, they are seperated now. the flame point has been staying with my sister the last couple weeks, and after the rather hostile meeting, well, I am not sure I want to try another attempt...the flame point is very hostile towards beefy to the point of even being hostile towards my sister when she removed him from the area...which she said had not happened before. I suppose we could try again, but, beefy has never provoked that behavior in any cat we have introduced him to, and in the short time my sister has been caring for the flame point, she said he had never exibited that hostile behavior. she said that he is a bit bossy of her two females, but has never hissed or been agressive with them, but he was very "hissy" with beefy and the meeting was interupted when he attempted to strike beefy after the first few seconds of the flame point being out of the carrier.

A little history:

the flame point was a abondoned cat. where my sister lives alot of people move in and out of the area, and unfortunately often leave their cats behind. being house pets they do not adjust well to life on their own in the city. when they turn up a local friend of ours rescues them and tries to find them homes.

this perticular cat was so loving my sister wanted to keep him, but because of his very active nature and very loud voice, my brother-in-law has said no to keeping the flame point long term.

since the flame point is such a well behaved cat and so beautiful, he will have no problem being adopted...I suppose I could try and few more times on the meetings and with differant strategies, but this first encounter was so bad, I am tempted to allow our local feline rescuer to find him a nice home.

perhaps things were a bit too rushed, but I have never seen another cat react to beefy this way...any time friends or neighbors have brought their cats over, they havent ever been that hostile towards beefy because he never acts aggressively.

In this case, it wasnt beefy that was the problem, he was a perfect gentalman and never even so much as puffed up his tail even when the flame point was being violent.

even though I would love to have that handsome flame point in our home, I do not want to turn the house into a war zone when there are plenty of loving homes in the area for such a handsome cat, and I enjoy beefys company far to much to bring a new addition that would react that way to him.

so, at the moment, I feel it is a lost cause and most likely wont attempt another meeting.
post #4 of 18
Look at things from the flame point's point of view. Abandoned by his people, then to a shelter, then another home, then yours. Thats a lot to deal with! His agression towards your cat was understandable even for a loving otherwise well behaved cat.
Bring something that smells like your cat to your sisters house, see how he reacts with it. Agression, curious, indifferent? If that goes well with no signs of agression, I agree with the other poster who said to let the flame point be in the meeting room alone, so he can check everything out. Take things more slowly if the flame is the bossy type. It may not work out, as beautiful as the cat may be, it just might not be a good fit for the two of them, but I wouldn't give up after only one try!
post #5 of 18
Thread Starter 
he was never to a shelter, the local animal shelters and pounds in the area refuse to take cats. a friend of ours runs a non profit cat rescue program out of her house and works with local animal shelters,vets, and local families to find out if strays are lost pets or abandoned, and if they are abandoned, she works to find homes with good people for them.

I can attempt to see how he reacts by bringing my cats brush or another object to her house he has been staying at the last couple weeks and see how the flame point reacts.

also, it may also be due to fluctuating hormones, it has only been a couple weeks since he was fixed.

I guess I just had never seen another cat act this way around beefy.

P.S. after the first sign of agression, we removed the flame point from the area and put him back in the carrier, and then moved him to one of the bedrooms. we allowed him out after a while to check out the room, and he meandered around and talked with my wife and hung out by the window. as soon as I opened the door later to see how he was doing, he charged past me with claws out(scraped my foot up with his back paws pretty good as he ran by) and ran straight for the other bedroom beefy was in and immediatly tried to attack him...im sure the introduction wasnt done properly, but, well, he just doesn't seem very fond of beefy. so, he is still staying at my sisters house, and due to the fact that there are plenty of loving homes that want him and how negatively he has acted towards my cat, i am not sure I want to persue trying to make him fit in this house.
post #6 of 18
Thats good he has places to go to!
post #7 of 18
Thread Starter 

Yesterday I visited my sister, and i brought with me a section of the twine from beefys scratching post. the flame point showed no agression when i gave the twine to him, instead continued to purr and mark me and the twine with his cheeks. I watched him interact with my sisters two females, and they were both increadibly pissed at the flame point, they were very hostile towards him, but in 3 hours i did not see one agressive behavior from him.

so, today i decided to try again. this time i did things differantly. i moved the flame point in his carrier to my daughters bedroom, i left him in the carrier for a bit and then let him into the room. i allowed him about an hour and a half to roam around the room before i came in. when i entered the room, he looked frightened and confused. he was purring and kept rubbing up against me, so i would pet him, and in a split second, he would go from purring and lovable to attacking me and hissing. so, i decided to leave him alone for a while...it was very obvious allowing him to see my cat at that moment would be very bad. so, i put a new litter box in the bedroom, some dry and wet catfood, a bowl of water, several toys(some that had beefys scent and some that were new and didnt), and some dried catnip. i left the window barely cracked, and left him alone for about 5 hours.

when i went back in the room, he was sleeping on my daughters bed in the exact spot beefy normally sleeps. he had eaten the wet food i left out and most of the dry food, which was good, because he hasnt been eating much my sister said and he is underweight. when i came in, he was purrring and was completely differant, he was mellow, and never displayed any negative behavior. completely differant, and the same behavior i saw at my sisters house, lovable and mellow.

at this point, he has been fixed for a couple weeks, my sister said he has sprayed a couple times, but he has not sprayed in the bedroom yet. i decided since the behavior was differant, to go ahead and crack the door a bit, and let the two exchange scent. they were both purring, gave a couple polite mews with tails held high and ears forward. i cut the visit very short, happy that there was not any really bad problems.

so now, i am wondering, how slow should i take it? i am planning on putting a litter box in the bedroom, as well as food and water, and letting beefy sleep in my bedroom tonight and let the siamese run around the rest of the house, or maybe putting the siamese in the bathroom. either way, if i dont let beefy sleep with me, there will be major problems....and we live in a two bedroom apartment.

i may just have my daughter and i camp out in the living room, because there is no way she will sleep with the siamese, he is VERY loud and also, he hasnt met her yet.

so, how slow should i take it? i think i should just keep him in that room for a while and take things slow and camp out in the living room with my daughter and beefy. thoughts? suggestions? thanks in advance!

p.s. here is a picture of the flamepoint, taken a few minutes ago before he shredded that catnip mouse to oblivion,lol.
post #8 of 18
Originally Posted by Reun View Post

so, how slow should i take it? i think i should just keep him in that room for a while and take things slow and camp out in the living room with my daughter and beefy. thoughts? suggestions?
Yes, this plan sounds good. Better play it safe and slow than be sorry. Although as far it sounds very good and you did all this very very well.

Let him be in this room, as this is apparently his safe room. Him seems to be a little unsecure in new situations so it is extra desirable to take it slowly and on his conditions.

Two weeks after neutering? So he was just neutered at your first attempt?
No wonder he was touchy when Beefy smelled his behind! BOTH hormones playing AND being freshly sore...
He has still some hormones left, but the niveu is of course noticeably lower than when whole.

Pardon me for saying this Reun: For me it seems YOU had grown a lot in this process. Reconsidering and relearning quite a lot...

Good luck!
post #9 of 18
It takes up to 2 months for male hormones to settle after neutering, I think you'll have much better success if you wait for him to settle properly.
post #10 of 18
Originally Posted by missymotus View Post
It takes up to 2 months for male hormones to settle after neutering, I think you'll have much better success if you wait for him to settle properly.
Yes, but with a normally friendly tom you dont need to wait so long (although it is advisable with a territorial, dominant tom!).

Our older stud wasnt feeling very well at the end of his time as stud. Peeing and teaching lessons to our younger stud, his son.
Two days took it, for no more lessons, and only one pee during the next week.
After it - one week or less - we had a harmonius, happy ex-stud... (and a happy young stud, with a friendly neutered dad still being the revir-keeper).
post #11 of 18
Thread Starter 
yes, it had been only a week since he had been fixed, beefy never actually touched or sniffed his rump, the start of the negative behavior was from beefys wiskers brushing the tip of the flame points tail.

I did rush things too much at first, obviously. since they both were so friendly around other cats, i didnt think there would be any problems, shame on me for not watching how the siamese acted in a new house...had i just seen how he reacted to me in a new room, i would never have allowed beefy any where near him untill the flamepoint was feeling better.

so yes, this was a learning process...so far i have read several sites, and as such, i started placing some of my clothes as well as a alarm clock(for the ticking sound) in the siamese' bedroom. so far they have both been reacting very well to eachothers scent, and are choosing to sleep on blankets with the others scent.

I have been feeding them by the closed door, and have sprinkled catnip directly under the door...so far so good! and the good news is the poor skinny siamese is finally eating(he didnt eat much at my sisters house, possibly cause of the stressfull enviroment...3 young children, locked in a bathroom most of the time because her two females hate his guts even though he is very passive and non agressive with them).

so, today i will allow another brief introduction...the siamese has already escaped the clutches of the bedroom twice(slippery little dickens), and is often meowing loudly when i am not in there with him. but so far so good.
post #12 of 18
Thread Starter 

Well, thanks to how slippery and crafty the flame point is, he snuck out of the bedroom on a couple occassions, which resulted in scent exchanges...so far, here is the negative behaviors:

when he darted out, the siamese went to a stationary bike that beefy normally rubs his cheeks on, and decided it would be a lovely place to spray. he has not sprayed in the bedroom he was in before that, nor after being returned to the bedroom.

my cat, who at first was very welcoming of the new addition, has changed his mind, he is very frightened of the newcomer now, and has reacted very defensively when allowed to sniff eachother through the door crack(even hissing a couple times).

the siamese just wants out, and even though he seems very stressed when allowed to move about the house, he doesnt want to be by himself. I have moved his evening lodging to the bathroom(much to his dismay), because my daughter needs a good nights sleep, and she wont get it with him in the bedroom.

beefy at this point is very freaked out, and even though i have been using catnip and wet food to try to end any encounters on a positive note, i am not sure its working.

I know its only been a short while, but I am sad, frusterated, and exhausted. I havent had more than a couple hours of interupted sleep between paying attention to the two cats, and it seems like beefy is regressing rather than adjusting to the newcomer. the siamese is in the bathroom yowling at the top of his lungs because i am not in there and he isnt out here...im bloodied from any time the siamese is moved, he gets increadibly hostile, and then he takes it out on whatever appendage is close to him.

we are all tired, stressed, and for the most part unhappy. the only positive thing out of the situation to this point is, the underweight siamese has put on a pound or two from healthy food...other than that, we are all miserable.

i am going to try seeing if any of the local pet stores carry feliway products, and keep hoping for the best, since most people say it will take a week of isolation just to get them comfertable...I hope I can make it that long.
post #13 of 18
Originally Posted by Reun View Post
i am going to try seeing if any of the local pet stores carry feliway products, and keep hoping for the best, .
Yes, Feliway may be a good help. If you can choose, choose Feliway diffuser, not spray.
Here in Sweden it is usually the vets who sell Feliway, not pet stores.
Accesible also from the Drug store (Apotheke). Perhaps it is so where you live?
Otherwise you can surely buy it by postorder.

Use Feliway instead of cat-nip. Cat nip losts its effect after a couple of days.

If Flampoint sprays more, you can neutralize it with winegar+water and wash it of with soap and water.
There are also biological enzyme-neutralizers if you prefer it.
post #14 of 18
Thread Starter 

I wasn't sure what to use to clean the spray, so I used chlorine bleach and lots of water followed by some antibacterial soap. it got rid of the smell(prolly not to the cats nose). I purchased some felaway today, and spritzed it on the area where he sprayed and several key places throughout the apartment. the flame point we decided to name Nai-Lehn, has not sprayed since that episode.

the diffuser seemed to calm both cats down considerably, and this evening they were playing with eachother through the door. I allowed the door to be cracked, and beefy still reacted very defensively and even hissed. I closed the door, and offered cat nip and play time with both of the cats.

at the moment, the flame point, NaiLehn, seems perfectly comfertable with beefy, and has not acted agressively to me or anyone else, even when I moved him into the bathroom again for the night. he seems perfectly adjusted to beefy and his scent, and just wants to be let out to play and socialise with the family.

unfortunately, beefy has been reacting to the whole thing badly, I guess because he now realises, that this cat may be here to stay, and isnt going home like the other cats he has played with. so now I am dealing with a insecure 25lb lap cat,lol.

I am still hopefull that maybe this will work out...and I am still happy that even if this is not NaiLehn's final home, that he is able to have fun and get some good food...as of a few short weeks ago he was scrapping with racoons and feral cats and dealing with malnutrition. I hope that things will work out, and that they will both adjust to eachother.

In the mean time, sleep is mostly escaping me between the two of them, and this promises to be a long week. I wish I was able to take the week off of work

EDIT: I had to remove beefy's food dispenser. up to this point, I had been using a automatic feeder, and because he has never over eaten, I was never concerned. but now I am having to ration his food, because since NaiLehn showed up, beefy has started eating tons. he gained almost a pound in the last few days, so i am having to adjust. is that behavior normal with the stress of a newcomer? BTW, the dry food I buy is a mix of a few differant brands, no corn or other bad things(beefy has a very sensative stomaque), the stuff i get is organic with low carbs and no by products,ect. beefy normally wasnt too thrilled with the taste, but the last day and a half he has been eating a ton of it regardless of the taste.
post #15 of 18
You use both Feliway diffuser and Feliway spray? Probably best so if you can afford both.

Excellent it is going positively forward with Flamepoint.

Some occasional hisses are not the whole world. In fact, I DID heared even our very friendly boys and good pals hiss a couple of times at each other.
But if you see the whole posture looking aggressive or angry - then you know the hisses are for real!...

Also some occasional swat with a paw dont need to be bad: teaching the newcomer means you did accepted him after all.

It dawns on me. Perhaps Beefy feels neglected. You are much with Flamepoint and plays with him because you need to get him feel comfortable.
But in most cases the usual advice is to play and give the attention most to the resident! Show him he is nr 1. It is important to keep up the ego of the resident. The newcomer is new and shy, so he doesnt notice he is left behind.
This is also the way not to make the resident jealous or mad at the newcomer.
Sorry, I realise now I wasnt enough specific about it...
I understood this is a dilemma; you need to do both, but can do only one at a time.... And yet you dont get enough with sleep.
Perhaps your daughter can play more with Beefy?

About Beefys excessive eating. The usual is rather they eat less when unhappy. But I presume it is entirely possible they eat more... this is quite common with many humans.

Did you tried wet food at any time? Is it OK for his sensitive stomach?
The dry food you write about sounds great as far as dry food go. But many knowleable cat people says wet food of good quality is even better.
Besides, it is easier to keep a cat in shape with wet food.
In practice, wet food is the easiest and best way to get an overwight cat down into shape.

post #16 of 18
Thread Starter 
Yeah, i picked up the products at a local petco, expensive but it seems worth it.

beefy has not been agressive, but rather, defensive. the flamepoint got out earlier this morning, and there was no negative behavior from either in the brief encounter. Nailenth bolted from the door right to the kitchen where beefy was lounging, they both sniffed eachother with no negative sounds or actions. I scooped the flamepoint up and put him back in the the bathroom shortly after the quick sniff.

and i am sure beefy feels neglected. I am spending far more time with beefy, i only go into the flamepoints room 1 to 15 minutes at a time, and the rest of the time is spent in the other rooms with beefy. however, beefy has had all my attention for the last 4 years, so this is a big adjustment. Cats are off limits to my daughter, as she has thus far been too rough with cats...she is not even allowed to pet or play with them. she snipped off beefys whiskers several months ago, and since then has not been allowed near him.

the flame point cries for attention very often, but still i only end up spending a few hours a day or less with him, beefy still gets most of the attention.
my hope is that this will eventually work, since this morning was the first non negative encounter.

I have been using soft food,catnip,toys,petting, and playtime before and after each encounter to make sure each encounter is a positive one. so yes, I do use wetfood for both of them, just small quantities. between the litter, expensive dry and wet food, they each are sharing half a can a day, and the rest of the food needs are met with try food and fresh water(changed 4+ times a day) and dripping faucets are provided. but yeah, finding foods that worked with beefy was rough, because even alot of the "good" catfoods with nothing bad in them still gave him gas and diareah or hiccups...i have found 3 brands of dry catfoods and one brand of wet catfoods in two flavors that he has no digestive problems with.

im hoping that this will work out since NaiLehn and Beefy were ok with the brief nose sniff this morning went better than anything to date. I hope the progress is better and better, because i need sleep,lol.
post #17 of 18
Thread Starter 

Well, things are about the same, the will sniff eachother, but any extened contact and beefy hisses and tries to box nailehn. and then nailehn gets pissed and they have to be seperated. at this point, the siamese, nailehn, just wants to be with the family and is tired of being cooped up. it is now beefy thats the problem.

beefy refuses to get along with nailehn, he will allow nailehn on curious sniff, and will allow him to wander around the living room, bathroom, and my daughters room, but if he heads for the bedroom, or gives more than a quick sniff, beefy acts agressively.

so far the difuser, catnip, and food, and attention to both cats has yielded VERY small results. they can sniff eachother without trying to attack one another, but that is where it ends.

this is now day 6, with not much improvement...im tired, and somewhat peeved that there is no end in sight.

at what point should i just give up? how long will this take? when i am at work i cant keep an eye on the siamese, and the little bugger is tearing my carpet apart to try and get the door to open...does anyone have any advise or any idea on if they will ever get along?
post #18 of 18
Oh, it may take time. A couple of month is not unusual in any way... There is good hope: they are NOT openly hostile, although they are a little touchy.

As now, it seems they are prepared to coexist (especielly Beefy), although they keep and defend their own areas.

I think you should try to plan to make a sort of everyday routine of this. As this may take time...

Another idea is perhaps to let them meet each other in the night! The night is the best time for cats. Mating couples for example are often resulting in the night...

NOW you can think about it: you know they are not openly hostile, so they will not seriously fight only because you are asleep.
Make sure though they both have somewhere to run and take shelter. Preferably somewhere up.

Good luck!
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