Breeding Discussion

StefanZ

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**** Note from AbbysMom

This discussion is being split off from one in Pregnant cats & Kittens. The posts below are in response to this post:


Originally Posted by RussianKitten

Im not entirely sure Im posting in the right place but here goes. I have a question, I got advised from the vets to seperate Amadeus from my two girls before hes neutered. He was born in Febuary (as well as Symphony they are brother and sister) Nefertiti my other girl is 8 weeks. Should I seperate Amadeus? Him and Symphony get on so well but havn't been amerous.. mmm.. yet ! Perhaps I could seperate them when I leave the house? Any opinions on this! Also Amadeus and Symphony are a bit insepreble if I shut one in the kitchen without the other they start meowing and scratching the door. What can I say? They're in love but I just don't want them to er be that much in love ! :p Help ^_^??!!

They seems quite young for the need to think about hmhm.
Russians can be early, but they are not known to be extremely early.

So, not yet, but perhaps in a couple of months if you want to safeguard.


About spaying, I presume it can be done anytime now if you wish to have them neutered.

But as you do have pedigree cats, observe:
if they are fine, it may be desirable for them to leave one or two litter each (not together of course). Im talking perhaps most for the boy now.

Good breading needs many individuals, ie both females and males. Having only a few "matador"-studs is NOT good for the breeding as such. If somebody would say it is disastrous - I wouldnt object too much.

It is also NOT necessary for the used cats to be absolutely top cats. They must be healthy in body and psyche and very good in type, but they dont need to be absolute top.

Even good "above average" are useful - and in fact necessary - for a good breeding programme.
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by StefanZ

But as you do have pedigree cats, observe:
if they are fine, it may be desirable for them to leave one or two litter each (not together of course). Im talking perhaps most for the boy now.

Good breading needs many individuals, ie both females and males. Having only a few "matador"-studs is NOT good for the breeding as such. If somebody would say it is disastrous - I wouldnt object too much.

It is also NOT necessary for the used cats to be absolutely top cats. They must be healthy in body and psyche and very good in type, but they dont need to be absolute top.

Even good "above average" are useful - and in fact necessary - for a good breeding programme.
Um,

I don't agree with you here, sorry. RussianKitten is not a breeder and I personally don't think its a good idea to breed if you don't know what you're doing. This isn't going against RussianKitten- don't get me wrong here!- but breeding healthy (!) cats needs a lot of knowledge that most cat lovers simply don't have (and don't really need either).

Good breeding doesn't mean that you take any two cats of the same breed and a pedigree and simply have them mate! Breeding should be about quality, not quantity.

Also- if RussianKitten should consider using one of his cats for breeding (or stud services) the breeder of his cats should be consulted first. She or he may not want (or allow) breeding with these cats or they may be a reason why these kitties were re-homed with a cat lover and not a breeder. The breeder might be carefully considering which of his cats should go into a breeding program and which not and how this influences the gene pool of the race.

As for stud services for the boy- I don't think this would be in RussianKitteis interest, really. For one he might start spraying which isn't really nice and then he would probably have to do 3-4 stud services per year to feel "fulfilled" as a tom cat. As RussianKitten presumably doesn't know anything about breeding- how is he/she going to finde these or judge the quality of the intended mating? Also, after each stud service the tom cat would need FIV and leucose testing done + a clean vets bill, meaning constant visits to the vets.

Keeping a potent male cat isn't the easiest thing to do and RussianKittens main concern should be to have a happy group of kitties that get on with each other rather then providing stud services.



regards,

Christine
 
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StefanZ

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Originally Posted by cjh27

- if RussianKitten should consider using one of his cats for breeding (or stud services) the breeder of his cats should be consulted first.
Yes, consulting the breeder, and or having a good mentor is absolutely necessary.

I agree with you.

My experience is our boys began to have some difficulties first when fully grown - ie 16-18 months...
But of course, if he starts spray earlier, off you go to the vet...



Edit: Im happy Dad and owner of Muskis and Vagis, two RB males, who also did service at studs.


ps. We in RB in Sweden do have an excellent RB-club, where there always are at least one responsible for the studs - eager to give advices etc, and also several experienced breeders who are ready with advices ect.
So an amateur occasional breeder never dont need to stand alone.
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by StefanZ

Yes, consulting the breeder, and or having a good mentor is absolutely necessary.

I agree with you.

My experience is our boys began to have some difficulties first when fully grown - ie 16-18 months...
But of course, if he starts spray earlier, off you go to the vet...


Edit: Im happy Dad and owner of Muskis and Vagis, two RB males, who also did service at studs.


ps. We in RB in Sweden do have an excellent RB-club, where there always are at least one responsible for the studs - eager to give advices etc, and also several experienced breeders who are ready with advices ect.
So an amateur occasional breeder never dont need to stand alone.
Hi,

which difficulties were these? Spraying or agressive behaviour due to an overdose of hormones? Did you also have girls in your household at the same time (neutered or not?)?

I just don't feel happy advising anyone to start breeding if it is not clear how much support they would get or how likely it is they'll find a competent mentor.

regards,

Christine
 
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StefanZ

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Originally Posted by cjh27

Hi,

which difficulties were these? Spraying or agressive behaviour due to an overdose of hormones? Did you also have girls in your household at the same time (neutered or not?)?

I just don't feel happy advising anyone to start breeding if it is not clear how much support they would get or how likely it is they'll find a competent mentor.

regards,

Christine
Im talking about spraying, and occasionally also being uncomfortable. Otherwise they were swell family boys although meowing loudly and quite a lot!
They were never aggressive to us nor each other. We do not have other cats, they were and are our family cats.
But they were always friendly to their visiting ladies, even those who went out of heat during transport.
I believe the russian blue males ARE friendly.... Of course if they werent friendly chaps, and also and nicely courting the ladies, the vet would soon do his duty.



I agree completely with you a decision to be a breeder is nothing you make without good preparations.
But the first step is - to consider it at all. To see it is not sure neutering is absolutely automatic. Although most pedigree cats are and should be neutered.
There are several steps before you take any decision to be a breeder. It is somewhat easier to let the tom help breeders.

More. Most/many breeders do neuter cats sold as pets before they leave. In USA it is common, in Denmark quite common, I presume in England too.
As these cats in question werent altered by the breeder - the breeder perhaps wanted to wait and see??

Last. I and my wife were asked to write a couple of articles for our RB club magazine, with the purpose to get more young male acting as studs, leaving 1-3 litters before they were neutered. As there always are too few good males to choose among.
I presume this is so also in other countries. The genetics are roughly the same.
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by StefanZ

I agree completely with you a decision to be a breeder is nothing you make without good preparations.
But the first step is - to consider it at all. To see it is not sure neutering is absolutely automatic. Although most pedigree cats are and should be neutered.
There are several steps before you take any decision to be a breeder. It is somewhat easier to let the tom help breeders.
Hi,

again I don't quite agree with you, sorry


The first step should be the decision to want to breed out of a love to the specific breed.

Then you should visit cat shows and talk to breeders, try to get an eye for what makes a good queen (or sire) and try to make contacts to be able to find a mentor.

A future breeder should then start learing about genetics, buy and study books about breeding practice and learn how to read pedigrees form their mentor.

Then you should decide on what breeding goals you would want to accieve within your breed.

The last step would be choosing your very own queen with the help of your mentor, while considering that this cat will be the foundation of your breeding program. Then have 1 or 2 litters with this cat before deciding which daughter one should keep as a future queen.

Personally I wouldn't get a stud right at the start, I'd start with one or two girls and slowly build up a cattery while learning more and more about the breed and the practical side of breeding and what is important for you regarding breeding ethics and cattery goals.


Originally Posted by StefanZ

More. Most/many breeders do neuter cats sold as pets before they leave. In USA it is common, in Denmark quite common, I presume in England too.
As these cats in question werent altered by the breeder - the breeder perhaps wanted to wait and see??
Don't you think the breeder would have then talked to RussianKitten about this? In any case RussianKitten was asking here about getting all three neutered, so I don't think he was thinking of breeding.

Originally Posted by StefanZ

Last. I and my wife were asked to write a couple of articles for our RB club magazine, with the purpose to get more young male acting as studs, leaving 1-3 litters before they were neutered. As there always are too few good males to choose among.
I presume this is so also in other countries. The genetics are roughly the same.
Um- but shouldn't this be addressed by the breeders themselves? I'd be pretty mad if I were the breeder of RussianKitten kitties and found out that someone was advising him to breed without knowing anything about the cats themselves or their pedigree or what plans the breeder has (or doesn't have).

regards,

Christine
 
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StefanZ

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Originally Posted by cjh27

Personally I wouldn't get a stud right at the start, I'd start with one or two girls and slowly build up a cattery while learning more and more about the breed and the practical side of breeding and what is important for you regarding breeding ethics and cattery goals.
Right, if it is building up a breedership we do talk about. Sure!


I did talk about letting ones male young cat leave a couple of litters, helping out active breeders. And this is not so big deal, especielly the question to which queenn are coming visiting / which queen is suitable for my male, is decided with help of an experienced breeder. (I do hope, otherwise I wouldnt recommend it: I dont like bush breeding!).

Or possibly - possibly, mind you, only barely mentioned! To let ones female cat get 1-2 litters, in close cooperation with a good mentor - preferably the breeder who bred her. Thus being a little of a sub-breeder to this experienced breeder.


I shall try to get this thread / discussion among us two moved into the Breeder-forum. We are now waay OT in this Pregnant forum!
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by StefanZ

Right, if it is building up a breedership we do talk about. Sure!


I did talk about letting ones male young cat leave a couple of litters, helping out active breeders. And this is not so big deal, especielly the question to which queenn are coming visiting / which queen is suitable for my male, is decided with help of an experienced breeder. (I do hope, otherwise I wouldnt recommend it: I dont like bush breeding!)
I'm afraid I don't quite agree with you there either, sorry.

If I had a stud I wouldn't simply accept any pedigree queen- I'd only let my stud mate if I felt confident that the owner of the queen knows what he or she is doing and can explain why my stud in particular was chosen.

Sure- the owner of the stud hasn't really got anything to do with bringing up the litter. But for me that doesn't mean that all thats to it is having the queen come for a few days and then thats that.


In other words- for me the ownership of an active stud takes just as much (if not more) knowledge about breeding and repsonsibility as building up a breedership.

And yes- bush breeding is one danger I see in this- again not going against RussianKittie here, as I don't know her/ him


I've been more active in a German forum and most people who just want to keep a stud for a time seem to think of it as a way to make money- hardly any want to do it for the good of the breed, maybe becaues the real fun in breeding lays in raising litters.

Originally Posted by StefanZ

I shall try to get this thread / discussion among us two moved into the Breeder-forum. We are now waay OT in this Pregnant forum!
That could be a very good idea


regards,

Christine
 

mews2much

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I am learning about breeding also.
I have Mentors teaching me.
They are very strict with me and make me tell them what makes a good breeding cat.
I might start breeding in two years.
They want me to start with a stud and then get females later.
I am showing Cleo as a alter.
There is so much to learn before you breed cats.
 

wellingtoncats

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Originally Posted by mews2much

I am learning about breeding also.
I have Mentors teaching me.
They are very strict with me and make me tell them what makes a good breeding cat.
I might start breeding in two years.
They want me to start with a stud and then get females later.
I am showing Cleo as a alter.
There is so much to learn before you breed cats.
Why would you get a boy cat first, Jacky? You wouldn't have any girls to mate with!


I'd totally start with 1-3 girls first. In the 13 years that I've been breeding I've only owned 2 studs and that was for 5 years max. But I'm lucky my Nana also breeds them!
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by mews2much

I am learning about breeding also.
I have Mentors teaching me.
They are very strict with me and make me tell them what makes a good breeding cat.
I might start breeding in two years.
They want me to start with a stud and then get females later.
I am showing Cleo as a alter.
There is so much to learn before you breed cats.
Hi,

how interesting. I do agree with you that good preperation can take you 1 to 2 years, depending on how much time you have on your hands. Also I think it would be wise to start saving up money during this time as breeding can be expensive, especially if you have unexpected vets bills coming your way (c-section, giardia, you name it).

But why would you want to start with a stud? It would really interst me why your mentor has advised you to start with a stud and not one or two girls and then get a stud when you're more experienced as a breeder?


regards,

Christine
 

epona

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The thread seems to have moved on a bit or maybe I have missed something but in direct response to the OP-

In the most extreme case I have heard about, a female OSH kitten went into her first heat right before she was adopted out at 13 weeks old. Now OSH tend to be very vocal about every heat, but it is quite possible for a female to be fertile at a very young age without you even knowing, and females do not need to be in heat to get pregnant either.

Also male cats can still have active sperm left in their tubes for up to 8 weeks after castration. If they are all to be neutered/spayed then if you want to put them back together ASAP then make sure the females are done as a priority - as soon as they have the op they can no longer conceive.

My conservative advice would be to seperate and be safe as pregnancy at a young age is a large health risk, it's the equivalent of a 12 year old human girl getting pregnant - in some cases physically possible, but neither right nor healthy.
 

mews2much

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Christine and Sam,
My Mentor said to start with a male.
She said that is what she did.
The rest would be girls later on.
I am getting another sphynx to show first.
I will start looking in the next few months.
It will be a alter also but will be show quality.
Russian Kitten I would get the male fixed now.
I have had Russian Blues in heat before and they can be noisy.
Sasha got lapo spayed which is easier but costs 100 extra.
Are you planning on breeding them?
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by mews2much

Christine and Sam,
My Mentor said to start with a male.
She said that is what she did.
The rest would be girls later on.
I am getting another sphynx to show first.
I will start looking in the next few months.
It will be a alter also but will be show quality.
Hmm,

not quite sure what would be the benefit of doing it this way? So you will start off with a neutered show cat and a stud that you'll probably have to neuter sooner or later- that would leave you with two neutered cats which I presume you'll keep
... but also with less space in your house for the queens you are planing to get later on?

I would have thought it would make more sense to start with a girl, as you'd have to wait untill she ist at least 10- 12 months before you can start breeding with her and then get a boy a few months after the girl so he can mate with her when she's old enough.

I somehow feel I've really missed the resoning behind this, but at the same time would be really interested in it .....


Christine
 

mews2much

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I have one female altered sphynx I am showing now.
I plan on getting another sphynx this year that will be show quality.
It will be altered also and I am not sure if it will be a male or female yet.
We are looking for a cat that will do well be showed.
I will ask her why she said to start with a male.


 

epona

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I have never heard of anyone starting with a stud. You need several girls to keep a stud happy and unfrustrated. It is normal to start off with a girl or 2 and build up then get a stud when you have the capacity to keep him happy.

Also there is an issue that a stud can mate many times in a short period whereas a girl has to go through pregnancy, nursing, and getting back into condition before being mated again.

Therefore in terms of genetics you should start off with a couple of (unrelated if possible) girls, then probably after their first litters (so you can keep back another girl kitten from each litter each from different studs) choose a stud boy, the very best possible, that complements their features (and corrects slight faults if necessary) and is as unrelated to them as possible - you are less likely to get that right IMO if you start with the stud.
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by Epona

I have never heard of anyone starting with a stud. You need several girls to keep a stud happy and unfrustrated. It is normal to start off with a girl or 2 and build up then get a stud when you have the capacity to keep him happy.

Also there is an issue that a stud can mate many times in a short period whereas a girl has to go through pregnancy, nursing, and getting back into condition before being mated again.

Therefore in terms of genetics you should start off with a couple of (unrelated if possible) girls, then probably after their first litters (so you can keep back another girl kitten from each litter each from different studs) choose a stud boy, the very best possible, that complements their features (and corrects slight faults if necessary) and is as unrelated to them as possible - you are less likely to get that right IMO if you start with the stud.
Jupp,

sounds like a good plan


If you do that you're speaking of four girls, plus one stud plus your altered sphynx- that would be 6 cats + occasionally litters.... I'd call that a full house


If mews2much has an experienced mentor she may be able to find enough stud services for her stud to keep him "happy"
- but as said, that won't really help her building up her own cattery.

If she's really unlucky her stud will start to spray sooner then expected and then she'll have to get him neutered before her own girls are old enough to mate.

You could come to an agreement with one of the queen owners and get a daughter of your stud- but then you yourself would have to find a stud for the daughter in turn.


regards,

Christine
 

missymotus

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I'm quite surprised that breeding has been recommended by a TCS advisor, and simply because the cats are pedigrees.

Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

Why would you get a boy cat first, Jacky? You wouldn't have any girls to mate with!
I'm holding out on having a boy for as long as possible. Start with girls and bring in a boy later, whoever is setting you up with a girl should have a stud you can use.

I've never heard of anyone starting out with a boy.
 
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