Breeding Discussion

mews2much · May 28, 2009

The people helping me do not live in my state.
They live 3 hours from each other.
This is some of what my mentor has said.
We work hard to always keep our word and have a good reputation. Others trust us and you can too. We breed healthy cats for personality and good looks. We don't skimp on health care or tests. We don't keep cats in cages except for safety if necessary. We do not overcrowd. We only keep our best cats for breeding in order to further the health and well being of this breed that we love so much.

Our cats come first, our egos second. Sure it's fun to win. Buts it's equally important to form good relationships with other breeders in other breeds besides sphynx. The more knowledge you gain about cats the better you will be at caring for yours.
And all that previous experience you have gained in caring for cats all these years will help a lot too. However breeding is a whole different scenario. And it requires a totally different set of skills. Jen wants you to become knowledgeable about the sphynx. Show sphynx, talk to sphynx breeders, read all the posts and ask questions.

I hope you join us one day in the future as a breeder.

StefanZ · May 28, 2009

Originally Posted by missymotus

I'm quite surprised that breeding has been recommended by a TCS advisor, and simply because the cats are pedigrees.

Who? Which advisor??

I participated in this thread, but such was NOT what I said nor meant.

missymotus · May 28, 2009

Originally Posted by StefanZ

Who? Which advisor??

I participated in this thread, but such was NOT what I said nor meant.

But as you do have pedigree cats, observe:
if they are fine, it may be desirable for them to leave one or two litter each

StefanZ · May 29, 2009

Originally Posted by cjh27

If I had a stud I wouldn't simply accept any pedigree queen- I'd only let my stud mate if I felt confident that the owner of the queen knows what he or she is doing and can explain why my stud in particular was chosen.

Sure- the owner of the stud hasn't really got anything to do with bringing up the litter. But for me that doesn't mean that all thats to it is having the queen come for a few days and then thats that.

In other words- for me the ownership of an active stud takes just as much (if not more) knowledge about breeding and repsonsibility as building up a breedership.
...

I've been more active in a German forum and most people who just want to keep a stud for a time seem to think of it as a way to make money- hardly any want to do it for the good of the breed, maybe becaues the real fun in breeding lays in raising litters.

Here are two different answers.

1. My swedish experiences (especielly in RB) as explanation to what I wrote and why I wrote this 2. The genetics of breeding, at least how they are taught in Sweden...

1. I understand our conditions in Sweden are partly different from in many other countries, for good and for bad.

a) The stud fees in Russian blue are (or were when our boys were active) are low. Typically about 1/3 - 1/2 of what is common in other breeds. Thus there is no money in it for the RB stud-owner.
It is perhaps why it IS necessary to try to do drives for more young studs!

b) Most breeders are small. Typically 2 queens + some neutered cats, RB and or a moggie or other breed.
Some are very experienced, 20+ years, with long term programmes. Others are more or less beginners, but they can always get at least some help from these experienced long term breeders. A sort of networking if you want.
Thus there is a great need for independent studs and also young males who mates a couple of time before the neutering.

c) Most swedish /norvegian/finnish RB do participate in shows, at least a couple of times each. Few of these are potential Show-winners, but they do get their Excellent without difficulties, and with time also a couple of certifikates/Champion title. Getting also the opinion of both judges and of fellow RB owners and also of experienced breeders. (of course the few apparent pet-grade dont participate in shows

)

There are surely more points, but Im sure you get the picture?

2. Second is the genetics, as teached by the swedish breed-gurus.
- I myself Im no expert here, I retell what they say.
Both Ulrika Olsson travelling around and giving lectures to breeders, and Ylva Stockelberg writing the manuals about breeding and genetics.
They both teach is it good to have many genetical individuals. Ie a ratio female and male - 3:1 or 4:1 is good. It is also good to have good possiblities to choose among suitable males.
Apparently quite many studs are necessary.
And thus: a need for quite a few young males of good stock, healthy and with good psyche - to help out.
Etc.

I suspect it is best I - or someone else - start a new thread about the stud situation - and IF there IS a need to recruit more studs.

StefanZ · May 29, 2009

Originally Posted by missymotus

But as you do have pedigree cats, observe:
if they are fine, it may be desirable for them to leave one or two litter each

Right. There are the small words "IF they are FINE", "it MAY be desirable".

It is totally different from saying you shall take a litter simply because you happen to have a pedigree cat.
Most pedigrees are - and should be - neutered. But we should have eyes open for the exceptions, is what Im saying.

At least, it is what I think and feel.

cjh27 · May 29, 2009

Originally Posted by mews2much

The people helping me do not live in my state.
They live 3 hours from each other.
This is some of what my mentor has said.
We work hard to always keep our word and have a good reputation. Others trust us and you can too. We breed healthy cats for personality and good looks. We don't skimp on health care or tests. We don't keep cats in cages except for safety if necessary. We do not overcrowd. We only keep our best cats for breeding in order to further the health and well being of this breed that we love so much.

Our cats come first, our egos second. Sure it's fun to win. Buts it's equally important to form good relationships with other breeders in other breeds besides sphynx. The more knowledge you gain about cats the better you will be at caring for yours.
And all that previous experience you have gained in caring for cats all these years will help a lot too. However breeding is a whole different scenario. And it requires a totally different set of skills. Jen wants you to become knowledgeable about the sphynx. Show sphynx, talk to sphynx breeders, read all the posts and ask questions.

I hope you join us one day in the future as a breeder.

Um,

you should be able to ask resonable questions in a new breeder- mentor relationship and not simply be told that you must trust them

regards,

Christine

cjh27 · May 29, 2009

Originally Posted by StefanZ

Here are two different answers.

1. My swedish experiences (especielly in RB) as explanation to what I wrote and why I wrote this 2. The genetics of breeding, at least how they are taught in Sweden...

1. I understand our conditions in Sweden are partly different from in many other countries, for good and for bad.

a) The stud fees in Russian blue are (or were when our boys were active) are low. Typically about 1/3 - 1/2 of what is common in other breeds. Thus there is no money in it for the RB stud-owner.
It is perhaps why it IS necessary to try to do drives for more young studs!

b) Most breeders are small. Typically 2 queens + some neutered cats, RB and or a moggie or other breed.
Some are very experienced, 20+ years, with long term programmes. Others are more or less beginners, but they can always get at least some help from these experienced long term breeders. A sort of networking if you want.
Thus there is a great need for independent studs and also young males who mates a couple of time before the neutering.

c) Most swedish /norvegian/finnish RB do participate in shows, at least a couple of times each. Few of these are potential Show-winners, but they do get their Excellent without difficulties, and with time also a couple of certifikates/Champion title. Getting also the opinion of both judges and of fellow RB owners and also of experienced breeders. (of course the few apparent pet-grade dont participate in shows

)

There are surely more points, but Im sure you get the picture?

2. Second is the genetics, as teached by the swedish breed-gurus.
- I myself Im no expert here, I retell what they say.
Both Ulrika Olsson travelling around and giving lectures to breeders, and Ylva Stockelberg writing the manuals about breeding and genetics.
They both teach is it good to have many genetical individuals. Ie a ratio female and male - 3:1 or 4:1 is good. It is also good to have good possiblities to choose among suitable males.
Apparently quite many studs are necessary.
And thus: a need for quite a few young males of good stock, healthy and with good psyche - to help out.
Etc.

I suspect it is best I - or someone else - start a new thread about the stud situation - and IF there IS a need to recruit more studs.

Hi,

I understand what you're trying to say and I also understand that the gene pool may be small in some breeds so it would be desirable to have some of the boys re- homed with cat lovers perform a few stud services before being neutered.

What I don't understand is why you randomly suggested this to the owner of a Russian Blue boy

.

regards,

Christine

StefanZ · May 29, 2009

Originally Posted by cjh27

What I don't understand is why you randomly suggested this to the owner of a Russian Blue boy

.

Yeah, it was perhaps not so wise. I got away by the affinity between two Russian blue-owners.

Lesson for me? Sometimes some things are best to say via mail to whom it concerns, if I really want to say them. Or start a new thread, so I can say what I really want to say in my own words. And myself building up the scenario. The risk for misunderstandings is much lesser this way.

cjh27 · May 29, 2009

Originally Posted by StefanZ

Yeah, it was perhaps not so wise. I got away by the affinity between two Russian blue-owners.

Russian Blue, Nebelung, Korat or Abyssinian, Somali are my all time favourites, too so I can understand why you are so enthusiastic

I'm not a breeder, by the way. For one this isn't the right time in my life to start breeding and on the other hand I really wouldn't know which of the above mentioned breeds I should breed, can't make up my mind there

Originally Posted by StefanZ

Lesson for me? Sometimes some things are best to say via mail to whom it concerns, if I really want to say them. Or start a new thread, so I can say what I really want to say in my own words. And myself building up the scenario. The risk for misunderstandings is much lesser this way.

Stefan,

I hope you haven't got the impression that it would be better for you to "go underground" by writing mails instead- that really wasn't my intetion

Starting a new thread would be a good idea. And suggesting to RussianKitten to consider breeding wasn't that wrong a thing to do- It just might have been a better idea though to ask him/ her a few questions about the cats and their breeder before jumping the gun

regards,

Christine

ferriscat · May 29, 2009

Originally Posted by cjh27

Um,

you should be able to ask resonable questions in a new breeder- mentor relationship and not simply be told that you must trust them

regards,

Christine

I agree with Christine.

Now here are my 2 cents, you may take them or leave them.

I have learned the hard way that some breeders enter a mentorship relationship so that they might have someone else assume the expenses and risks of keeping/caring for cats they can't house themselves. Be very careful that you are not treated as another breeder's satellite cattery. There is a distinct line between sage advice and control, but it can be difficult to identify at first.

Intact boys are very difficult to keep. They spray, they call, and they are not suitable house pets. If you don't already have appropriate stud housing, they will destroy your home. Many top boys are altered and placed as pets simply due to the work involved in keeping a stud male.

When litters are registered, the breeder is whoever is the owner/leasee of the girl at the time of breeding. The owner of the stud does not get credit for the litter. If you are breeding cats, you want to have credit for the litters because that is how you will get on the breed council (which should be one of your long-term goals) You can't be a breeder if you only have a stud!

Don't start out with a boy. Not unless you have a chance at a one-in-a-million example of the breed, but you want to have trained your eye to be able to recognize that type of cat too. Start out with girls and use outside males for stud service. It is much easier. The last thing you want is to become overwhelmed or burned out!

sohni · May 29, 2009

I almost feel as if this is a Cat Breeder's Anonymous meeting... Hello, my name is Sohni and I got a Egyptian Mau stud first!

My experience was through emails back and forth between me and a few different Mau breeders. I didn't have the advice from this board, or else my path would probably have been much different. These breeders advised me to get a male first, and then find a couple of suitable females. So I did. Then I found this board and was lucky to find a few mentors.

Luckily, my male Mau has a decent pedigree and some good points so I am able to work with some of the best Mau lines in N.A.

I will agree that males are more than a little tough to keep. Tsekani is a huge love bug, but I can't let him have free run of the house. I followed him one day to keep an eye on him, and he whipped around and sprayed my couch before I had any time to react at all. He only has one female to keep him happy right now.

cjh27 · May 29, 2009

Originally Posted by Sohni

I almost feel as if this is a Cat Breeder's Anonymous meeting... Hello, my name is Sohni and I got a Egyptian Mau stud first!.

Finding your way as a breeder must be quite difficult in the beginning, so it's probably a good idea to listen to as many different oppinions on breeding and have as many discussions about different ways to go about starting your own cattery as possible.

A bit OT, I'm chatting to another person (unfortunately in a German Forum) about her plans to breed Mau's.

She's found an even more bizar way to start breeding Mau's by buying a female "Mau" (the daughter of street cats off the streets of Kairo) from an Egyptian Ex-pat living in Germany, and is/ was thinking of getting her stud from EMRO in Kairo. Of course none of these cats have a pedigree ..... I think she'll have a hell of a time getting these cats registerd as Egyptian Mau (if she can find a breeders society that still has an open class for this breed). Do you know of any breeder who's actually done this recently?

Originally Posted by Sohni

My experience was through emails back and forth between me and a few different Mau breeders. I didn't have the advice from this board, or else my path would probably have been much different. These breeders advised me to get a male first, and then find a couple of suitable females. So I did. Then I found this board and was lucky to find a few mentors.

And again I've got the same question for you: What reasons were you given to start with a boy and not a girl?

What would you have done different looking back now?

Originally Posted by Sohni

Luckily, my male Mau has a decent pedigree and some good points so I am able to work with some of the best Mau lines in N.A. !

Congrats! Any chance we could see some piccies of your boy?

regards,

Christine

ferriscat · May 29, 2009

Originally Posted by cjh27

She's found an even more bizar way to start breeding Mau's by buying a female "Mau" (the daughter of street cats off the streets of Kairo) from an Egyptian Ex-pat living in Germany, and is/ was thinking of getting her stud from EMRO in Kairo. Of course none of these cats have a pedigree ..... I think she'll have a hell of a time getting these cats registerd as Egyptian Mau (if she can find a breeders society that still has an open class for this breed). Do you know of any breeder who's actually done this recently?

Oh wow, that is really risky. Imports are not meant to serve as any easy way to obtain breeding cats. I worked with imports with the Turkish Van breed, and I would never do an import x import match. Imports serve to expand the gene pool, and unless a new breeder is working with other experts they should be completely avoided. You have to breed imports to the best lines available to set type and correct faults. The Mau as a breed has become more refined over the years, and there is no way that two randomly bred cats are going to produce kittens that meet the standard. Even the first generation or two is unlikely to be productive.

CFA allows imports to be registered, but they can't be shown until the third generation. However, there are several steps that must first be taken for the cats to be approved. One also has to be very careful about introducing undesirable traits to the breed, such as white spotting, points, and dilute.

I also don't reccomend trying to "back-door" the cats into a minority registration association that makes things easier. It could backfire on her in the end, as more established breeders may view the pedigrees with suspicion.

Since she already has a cat from Cairo, I suggest she get in contact with some of the established Mau breeders. This way they can at least tell her if she has something that can be used. . . or something that will cause nothing but headaches.

sohni · May 29, 2009

I don't have a lot of pictures of Tsekani it seems. I'd like to get some professional ones taken someday. I brought him to two shows, and he did really well at the ACFA show, coming in third best cat. He has since developed a nasty spraying habit, and I am hesitant to show him much more. I was planning to concentrate on showing my new kittens instead.

In terms of advice to get a male first, I think they were trying to make a sale. But they did say that the 'heart' of your cattery is your star male. I have since had my mind changed, and believe that the quality of the females you own is just as, if not more, important.

I wouldn't change the path that I took, though. I learned a lot along the way and that is the best way for me to grow. If I am mentored/advised along, I don't become as passionate as when I learn on my own. I am MORE than thrilled to have mentors now, but I learned as much from my mistakes.

Judging from how important lines are to the top Mau breeders in North America, I would think that introducing 'street-cat' lines would be an uphill battle.

mews2much · May 29, 2009

I plan on starting with females now.
I have to find a good show quality alter sphynx first.
I will start looking for one in the next few months.
I will be showing the new sphynx and Cleo together.
Then I will show for at least to years.
I am not rushing into anything.

cjh27 · May 29, 2009

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

Oh wow, that is really risky. Imports are not meant to serve as any easy way to obtain breeding cats. I worked with imports with the Turkish Van breed, and I would never do an import x import match. Imports serve to expand the gene pool, and unless a new breeder is working with other experts they should be completely avoided. You have to breed imports to the best lines available to set type and correct faults. The Mau as a breed has become more refined over the years, and there is no way that two randomly bred cats are going to produce kittens that meet the standard. Even the first generation or two is unlikely to be productive.

CFA allows imports to be registered, but they can't be shown until the third generation. However, there are several steps that must first be taken for the cats to be approved. One also has to be very careful about introducing undesirable traits to the breed, such as white spotting, points, and dilute.

I also don't reccomend trying to "back-door" the cats into a minority registration association that makes things easier. It could backfire on her in the end, as more established breeders may view the pedigrees with suspicion.

Since she already has a cat from Cairo, I suggest she get in contact with some of the established Mau breeders. This way they can at least tell her if she has something that can be used. . . or something that will cause nothing but headaches.

Yes,

that's the general direction we're gently trying to convince her of

. I'm no Mau expert but I doubt that her girl will be good enough to allow her to register her. It would be best if she were to neuter her girl and try to find a German Mau breeder as a mentor- and only start with foundation cats when she's got enough experience with breeding Mau's. We'll see what happens....

regards,

christine

cjh27 · May 29, 2009

Originally Posted by Sohni

I don't have a lot of pictures of Tsekani it seems. I'd like to get some professional ones taken someday. I brought him to two shows, and he did really well at the ACFA show, coming in third best cat. He has since developed a nasty spraying habit, and I am hesitant to show him much more. I was planning to concentrate on showing my new kittens instead.

Ooooh, he really is a cutie

, thanks for showing your boy to us

Iprefer cat breeds that are natural looking

Very adorable nose, if I may say so

.... and those tummy spots

You should definately have some professional photos taken

regards,

christine

northernglow · May 30, 2009

I have to say that I understand very well what StefanZ is talking about. We both live in a smallish countries where the amount of cats is a lot fewer than in US and the catteries are small. For example we don't keep stud houses in our yards, and almost all of the cats live as pets and family members amongst their humans. To avoid high percentage of inbreeding, we have to hang on to those males which can be left unaltered, and often import cats from another countries.

I'm planning on starting breeding, and at the moment I only have males: one neuter, one stud (actually 2 but the other one doesn't live with me anymore because my neuter hates him..), and one male kitten.

Why did I end up having males? Well.. I actually was looking for a female at first, but when I laid my eyes on Utu, my neutered male, I fell in love and there was no way out..

I was going to bury my breeding plans for several years and got another male to keep company for the first one and to go to shows with. He was the best from his litter and was sold with breeding rights, so I ended up having a stud. He doesn't spray at all, and is very kind and loving kitty.
My other stud, who lives with my best friend, is very handsome and gorgeous, his only fault is a bit too pale eye color. His color is very rare here and his previous owner sold him because she couldn't find suitable female for him. When he still was living here, he was spraying a lot, but stopped it completely now that he doesn't have any cat company.
And finally the kitten. He is my other stud's son, and a payment from 'borrowing' my stud for his breeder. If a suitable female kitten would have been born, I would have taken her.

I'm currently looking for a new cat, but the breed and color I have chosen are quite rare and we don't have any breeders of that breed (or color) here in Finland. So I had to contact a breeder in Germany, and now we are waiting to see how the mating is going and if her female gets pregnant, and if a kitten of desired color and quality is born. This color is so rare, that I've told the breeder that if a female isn't born, I'm willing to take a male.
I'm still young (if 24 counts as young

), so I have all the time in the world to wait for the right female to appear. In the meanwhile I'll keep studs or show alters and try to learn as much as possible about the breeds I've chosen (British Short- and Longhairs, Scottish Folds, in colors silver and points).

Sorry about the extra long post..

missymotus · May 30, 2009

To say stud boys should be kept as family members is really pretty unrealistic in most cases IMO. Stud boys are dangerous, they can be fine and friendly one moment and attack you the next.
I am always mindful when around studs, they are not predicatable at all. I know the sweetest most sooky boy and just the other week he tried to go his owner, luckily she had a broom in hand. Once the moment is passed, he's sooky once again. But to live with that indoors, roaming free in the house - not a chance!

With most boys spraying, they cannot be kept inside. And girls are kept indoors, you cannot have the boy around the girls.

northernglow · May 30, 2009

Originally Posted by missymotus

To say stud boys should be kept as family members is really pretty unrealistic in most cases IMO. Stud boys are dangerous, they can be fine and friendly one moment and attack you the next.

With most boys spraying, they cannot be kept inside. And girls are kept indoors, you cannot have the boy around the girls.

I've never heard about a stud attacking their owners!

Mine have never done anything like that and they are both 2 years old, they do roam free in the house, and I know several people who own studs and the only problems are spraying and yowling that I've heard of.
I do understand that if the studs who attack people have lived their lives in a stud house, they aren't so used to having people around and it could be causing the aggressive behavior.

We also don't have the possibility to keep the studs outdoors as it gets very cold during winter. Obviously it is almost impossible for a breeder to have both females and males indoors, but if they have enough space for them (so that they can be kept separated), they will have both sexes. I think that is pushing it, and my males are going to be neutered when I find a female.

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