History - what gives?

Originally Posted by Misty8723

How on earth can anyone hate history?

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I blame the teachers. Many people who love history don't realize that they are unique and think everyone will identify with their love- NO, kids in school need big attention grabbers and there are so many of those in history...teachers just fail to use them. I am 20, history major and I still find some topics of history incredibly boring and even some history books I've had to read, I've found terrible- just so dry with facts..What I love about history, is making the connections, analyzing the facts, not just recollecting what happened and when it happened. I especially love to study things like people's attitudes and everyday life in the past. Social movements that made a big difference in people's lives really amaze me. I still find many 'history buffs' who love to know the facts but that's all they care about..especially those who like military history which i absolutely despise lol. I'm a double major with sociology and I have to admit sociology is more my thing but history is still pretty awesome and goes hand in hand with sociology. But I definitely see how people could hate history.

Originally Posted by lil maggie

^ I agree especially when history is a reflection of ourselves and our behavior.
Learning history helps us to confront the complexities of it in ways that promote critical and creative thinking about the challenges we face and the opportunities we have for positive change.


No, I still think it's shocking and odd that anyone can deny the holocaust because of the information out there. It's not just text, it's actual film footage taken not by just one side. Bryan is right, there are so many films depicting this AND in great detail by only us? No, most of it by the Nazi's, the very people who committed these atrocities. The proof is all there in black and white (and in some cases color).

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Lol okay. You must feel the way I did a while back-when I was a biology major and I couldn't possibly see how in the world someone can deny evolution and say dinosaurs walked on earth along with men?? To a biologist this is the oddest thing you will encounter, I know many people can't see it but it is. I've learned my lesson and I now just accept people out there can be SO ignorant there isn't much that can be done about it in our lifetime.

When history was dates and places, I hated it. My high school was (at the time) one of the best public school districts in the U.S. In fact, they offered an "alternative" educational program, and after I stopped attending classes for basically the first semester my Junior year, my parents and the school talked me into giving it a try. So other than through the first two years of high school, I had no history classes, per se (because I also went to a college where there were no "classes.").

So I don't remember what was taught (high school was 30+ years ago now!) - but I do remember it was dates and places, and I could have cared less. I'm sure I tuned out and studied what I needed to in order to pass tests.

History on my own is a totally different storty. I love history - but when it's people or "a people," and has a context.

But I would SO not be shocked to find out someone did not know about... well... just about anything. Especially if it's in any way historical - because too many teachers just don't know how to teach it, and too many kids - especially at that high school/college age, just don't care.

Laurie

Originally Posted by Essayons89

In great detail, too.

There were 12 million people killed during the holocaust. Six million were Jews. There were Poles, Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally and physically handicapped, and many others of Slavic descent who were deemed as "racially inferior" by the Nazis.

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People often forget or never really learned that it wasn't just Jews that were killed. IMO Stalin and Mao, who killed a lot more both directly and indirectly, tends to get skipped over more than Hitler does. Though actual numbers on how many they killed are still questionable since it's harder to get that sort of information from communist governments.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

People often forget or never really learned that it wasn't just Jews that were killed. IMO Stalin and Mao, who killed a lot more both directly and indirectly, tends to get skipped over more than Hitler does. Though actual numbers on how many they killed are still questionable since it's harder to get that sort of information from communist governments.

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Exactly!! There are so many genocides that are responsible for more lives than Hitler..Even the Japanese killed more Chinese people during WWII than Hitler killed jews- it was in Nanking where they invaded trying to take over China. That almost never gets mentioned...

Plenty of civilians died too. Whatever number you want to use - military, civilians, Jews, Poles, Russians, Gypsies.... it is all mind blowing. The estimates range between 50 million and 80 million dead as a result of World War II.

Laurie

^Soldiers killed at not included in totals for genocide. Generally civilians killed in the process (ie, from bombings on cities from opposing forces) aren't either.

Originally Posted by ut0pia

Exactly!! There are so many genocides that are responsible for more lives than Hitler..Even the Japanese killed more Chinese people during WWII than Hitler killed jews- it was in Nanking where they invaded trying to take over China. That almost never gets mentioned...

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No, they didn't. It was around 300,000 to maybe 340,000. Though what Japan did do was rather gruesome. Worse is that the US let some of them off in trade for information - stuff like what the Japanese collected by performing experiments on live people...

Originally Posted by LDG

Plenty of civilians died too. Whatever number you want to use - military, civilians, Jews, Poles, Russians, Gypsies.... it is all mind blowing. The estimates range between 50 million and 80 million dead as a result of World War II.

Laurie

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The human cost of war is insane.

I haven't looked for the numbers/estimates yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were more civilian deaths caused by disease and starvation than were killed by the fighting or bombing. Of course, the disease and starvation were a direct result of the after effects of the fighting.

Look at World War I. At the Battle of the Somme, the British alone suffered over 57,000 casualties (over 19,000 killed). That was just the first day of the battle. Total Allied casualty estimates for the battle are well over 600,000. For Germany it was well over 450,000. The British lost almost an entire generation of young men as a result of WWI.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

^Soldiers killed at not included in totals for genocide. Generally civilians killed in the process (ie, from bombings on cities from opposing forces) aren't either.

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I wasn't specifically talking about genocide. The thread was about the O.P.'s shock at her friend not knowing how Hitler died, and though the topic was generally knowledge of history, it kind of evolved into a discussion of issues in World War II. I was simply addressing the fact that no matter what information one is addressing re: casualties of World War II, the numbers are beyond staggering.

Laurie

Originally Posted by LDG

I wasn't specifically talking about genocide. The thread was about the O.P.'s shock at her friend not knowing how Hitler died, and though the topic was generally knowledge of history, it kind of evolved into a discussion of issues in World War II. I was simply addressing the fact that no matter what information one is addressing re: casualties of World War II, the numbers are beyond staggering.

Laurie

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Ah, sorry. Since Utopia, Essayons, and I had turned the conversation/thread to the Holocaust, dictators (and communist leaders) and genocide I thought that you were following that particular thread of the conversation, too.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

Ah, sorry. Since Utopia, Essayons, and I had turned the conversation/thread to the Holocaust, dictators (and communist leaders) and genocide I thought that you were following that particular thread of the conversation, too.

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Nope. However, when it comes to knowledge of history, I wonder what number people would answer if asked the question, "How many people died in World War II?"

Laurie

Originally Posted by LDG

Nope. However, when it comes to knowledge of history, I wonder what number people would answer if asked the question, "How many people died in World War II?"

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That depends. Are you wanting it answered by complete total that were killed even indirectly and not specifically from the Third Reich or do you just want what the Third Reich was responsible for? It's not a simple question and really doesn't have that simple of an answer.

If the former, Japan and Soviet Russia need to be factored in - so you get a couple more genocides to add to the number.

Going back to Hitler, he was both paranoid and delusional. He distrusted his generals, blaming them for every military setback that took place. As the war went on he removed himself from making public appearances and radio broadcasts and even started to exclude himself from his inner circle. The man believed that his will alone was enough to win the war. His biggest mistake was invading Russia. Then he made the fatal error of dividing his forces after invading Russia. Stalingrad became a personal battle of wills between Hitler and Stalin. The Red Army was no less brutal as they pushed the Germans back further and further.

As far as people not knowing significant events in history, there are too many who don't know anything about recent/curent events. You see it a lot around election time when they come out with those polls asking who the current VP is, or who the Secretary of State is, and people have no clue. Are you kidding me? How can a person not know who our first president was? Or who was Abraham Lincoln? Please.

Originally Posted by Essayons89

As far as people not knowing significant events in history, there are too many who don't know anything about recent/curent events. You see it a lot around election time when they come out with those polls asking who the current VP is, or who the Secretary of State is, and people have no clue. Are you kidding me? How can a person not know who our first president was? Or who was Abraham Lincoln? Please.

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Oh, I'll completely admit that I'm not that fond of politics/government and even American history - too many years of that. I also had to take a couple semesters of state history for Oklahoma, which wasn't so bad.
That said, most of your questions are all common sense stuff. I bet even our Canadian members could answer them easily.

As for the first paragraph of your post. I had an uncle who loved military history so I learned about a lot of that before grade school! And actually learned to read fairly young and was reading the various books he had. Now I have a FIL that loves military history, particularly WWII, so I sit and discuss that with him. I should probably pay more attention to what books you're ordering and reading as he always loves books for gifts...

Originally Posted by strange_wings

No, they didn't. It was around 300,000 to maybe 340,000. Though what Japan did do was rather gruesome. Worse is that the US let some of them off in trade for information - stuff like what the Japanese collected by performing experiments on live people...

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Lol my bad, I don't know what I'm talking about..I was totally not sure but I usually trust my first instinct and i had a feeling like I knew ...In any case, I do remember some kind of statistic being said comparing the rape of nanking to the holocaust. I think maybe the japanese killed at a higher rate in the given time than the nazis? I dunno..but the point was that so many other genocides go unnoticed while the holocaust is always emphasized as huge in all history books. Maybe that's because we are so proud that we stopped it and stopped hitler, that we gotta talk all about how gruesome it was!

Originally Posted by lil maggie

I can understand people not knowing specifics in history but I am suprised that many don't know some of the basic events that took place. I also think that history classes should go over ALL history including current events. It's true that lots of people have no idea who all is running our government. And even though our Canadian friends know these easy questions, I'm betting there's a lot of Americans who don't.

I have to agree, a normal school history class involves memorizing names, dates and places - b o r i n g!
I think it'd be a great idea to mostly show historical films in class. If I were a history teacher I'd even bring popcorn! I'm more of a 20th century history buff but if the history channel has on a film even about, let's say, roman emperors, I'm glued to it. I think it's a great way to learn.

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I'm not so sure historical films are the answer. I've had classes like that and I feel like they were the worst! I much prefer listening to heated lectures coming from a professor who's passionate about his work. I can barely stand watching fiction films, I've been walking out of the theaters halfway through so many movies lately, and documentaries are just impossible for me. I'd much rather read a book than watch a documentary. I'm taking a class on the history of the vietnam war at the moment, and although I generally dislike this period of history I'm loving all of the readings for that class..
Maybe I'm the exception though, maybe the majority prefers movies. I'm not a visual person at all so that doesn't help any either.

Hi,

many people over here in Germany took real offence in Tom Cruise playing Stauffenberg in Valkyrie due to his involvement in scientology. Over here scientology is seen as an totalitarian sect and it just seems wrong that one of their most prominent members was choosen to play Stauffenberg, wo lost his life trying to bring down the totalitarian nazi sytem.

Christine

^ I have a German friend who was grumbling about that, too. The general opinion about him over here, is that like other scientologist, he's a nut case.

Originally Posted by ut0pia

Lol my bad, I don't know what I'm talking about..I was totally not sure but I usually trust my first instinct and i had a feeling like I knew

...In any case, I do remember some kind of statistic being said comparing the rape of nanking to the holocaust. I think maybe the japanese killed at a higher rate in the given time than the nazis? I dunno..but the point was that so many other genocides go unnoticed while the holocaust is always emphasized as huge in all history books. Maybe that's because we are so proud that we stopped it and stopped hitler, that we gotta talk all about how gruesome it was!

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I got your point - the same one I was making. And yes, it was a ridiculously short period of time for that many to have been slaughtered in - around six weeks!

I like documentaries, films tend to bore me (not one for a lot of drama), and tend to prefer to read about events, too.

utopia, you might be thinking of the Chinese government itself being responsible for the indirect killing of an estimated 20 million Chinese peasants thru starvation when they were trying to implement the communist regime, this happened in the 40s-50s also

I personally Love history!! I am more of a fan of the American Revolution and more into Ancient civilizations like Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt and Messopotamia (sp?) but any history to me is fascinating, i mean there is sooo much to learn! I was lucky in high school both i had two history teachers, one i had two years in a row for Modern world history and the following for AP US history, he was amazing and really funny!! He was a tough teacher, but i learned a lot from him, he was one of hte fave teachers at my school. And my teacher for American Government was also awesome, he was a student of my first teacher, so it was almost a given he'd be awesome. I agree if you have a pasionate teacher then you are more likely to be passionate.
My grandpa was a pilot in WWII so i guess i learned a lot about it because of him. It is sad how little people know about anything . My freshman year of college I was in this english class. We read two books on the holocaust. One I loved was by Art Spiegleman, Maus: A Survivor's Tale, a graphic novel about a son listening to his father talk about his life through out the time of wwII. And we read Viktor Frankl-- A Man's Search For Meaning. We had to write a paper on something that had to do with the holocaust or the Rwanda genocide. Well this girl read my paper (we had to critique each other) and I used an example of how the state of Tennessee was about the same population of how many Jewish people were killed, about 6 million and stated that we as a country would have lost a whole state (trying to show how big a number of the Jewish people killed) and the girl said, that it didnt make sense and that I should use India as an example I was like India has wayyy more people than 6 million!!! SHe tried to argue with me...wow how did she get in college???

I think some people are just to absorbed in their own ideas and lives that they dont either care or want to know about history and the facts, they just make up their own!