English Language

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I also said that it was unlikely her spelling would get any better since her teacher did not know how to spell. They said that was a very serious allegation. I then pulled out a handwritten sheet that her teacher had sent home regarding the Christmas pagaent. On it, there were 3 misspellings - halo was spelled "hallo", shepherd was spelled "shepard", and veil was spelled "vale". Now those are not difficult words to spell, in fact two of them are simple 4-letter words. When they saw my proof, the Principal sputtered and said, "well now, how important is spelling these days anyway" to which I replied it had seemed important to him moments before I showed him the page with the teacher's misspelled words.

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That's unbelievable!! The principal should have told that teacher to learn how to spell or lose her job! I mean, I don't mind if teachers misspell words in their personal writing but at work it's just inexcusable...Oh gosh. I thought this happened only in the US where a high school diploma doesn't mean a thing (IMHO) after they've lowered and lowered the standards...
I hate how your daughter was treated, I honestly think principals and teachers try to act like they are not humans but something better in front of kids. I've felt this myself when I was in school, it makes a kid feel as though in prison.

Originally Posted by mrblanche

On the other hand, you wouldn't have any difficulty reading something from the 1400's written in French. Why? Because they have a group called the French Academy that regulates what is correct usage. The prohibit the use of Anglicisms and other "

izations" of language in books, newspapers, signs, etc. The result may be good, but it does stifle creativity. English has almost 4 times as many words as French.

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How closely are the French Academy's regulations followed? I've heard about some of their rules which were controversial.

A little OT here but the Chinese language is even worse in terms of evolution. Ancient Chinese is (to me) almost indecipherable compared to modern Chinese scripts. Aside from the evolution of the language from ancient times, now we also have the traditional versus simplified script. I'm not sure how the language would compare phonetically, especially among the different dialects.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

...How do some others of you feel about our language and it's demise?

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Was this a hidden test? Proper English would be "language and its demise" since you are using the possessive. "Its" is the same as hers, his, and theirs (no apostrophe). "It's" is a contraction for it is. Did I pass the test?

To answers the OP's question, I don't believe that English is in its demise. I think it's always changing, whether we like it or not. I am going to miss adverbs, though, they seem to be on the way out.

Originally Posted by Denice

I am 53 so I went to school a very long time ago. There is a huge difference in the emphasis when I went to school and now. I remember having to diagram sentences when I was in school and I hated it. They haven't done that in a very long time. I've asked people in their early thirties if they had to do that and I get a blank stare.

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That's odd, I had to do a little of that back in middle and high school. I wonder if they know it by some other name or have just forgotten?

That Principal sounds like a nut case, by the way. My parents had a similar problem when they were going to enroll me in kindergarten. As a result I was held out a year and not started till I was six.

When I taught English, I went very heavily for spelling, grammar, and even diagramming.

(It has been said that the great thing about Bill Clinton was that even when he spoke extemporaneously, you could diagram his sentences.)

The ability to diagram a sentence will often solve a grammatical problem. The "Billy and I" and "Billy and me" problem disappears, for example.

Okay, I don't even know what diagramming is. I'm 20 and was in middle school (I assume that's when you're supposed to learn this??) 7-9 years ago. I think all of the grammar that I know is intuitive by the way. I don't know why you're not supposed to write "Billy and me", I just know it sounds wrong and "Billy and I" sounds right.
What's funny is that when I write on this thread, I find myself unconsciously more mindful of my grammar than when I write in other threads I guess bringing grammar to our attention is a good thing!

Unfortunately, the world (I can definitely see it here in the U.S.) is turning out a generation of lazy, underachieving, slackers. Poor grammar and spelling are merely small symptoms of a much deeper problem.

Originally Posted by mrblanche

The ability to diagram a sentence will often solve a grammatical problem. The "Billy and I" and "Billy and me" problem disappears, for example.

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I never understood how people make that mistake. That and double negatives should be very easily noticed and just sound wrong. Though it does help if a person does not let their grammar slip so much when speaking, too. IMO I believe the "looseness" when speaking tends to creative a lot of grammar problems. Parents and teachers used to correct that. (My teachers would always correct students when they spoke, especially if a person said ain't)


Of course the flip side of being more articulate than most people around you is that they'll either come to think you're snobby or feel intimidated by you. (Note I'm referring to an area where people say ain't, and me, use double negatives, never use have, and make up/misuse words.)

But an interesting side of this is that having worked with the public I have noticed that there really isn't that much of a predictable trend regarding age. There were plenty of teens and twenty-somethings in that would speak clearly and properly. The main deciding factor seem to be class... lower class almost always made the common and easily avoided mistakes when speaking.

Well, here's the reason.

"Billy and I went to the store." That's correct.

"Give the money to Billy and me." That's correct.

The reason is that "I" is the correct form to be the subject of the sentence, and "me" is the correct form to the object of the preposition "to."

Or, to put it another way:

"Me went to the store." That's incorrect.

"Give the money to I." That's incorrect.

I know that I personally do not speak grammatically correct most of the time, I'm a serial liker but when I write a paper for school or compose a business e-mail, I most definitely do not so much when I type on a forum

Originally Posted by mrblanche

Well, here's the reason.

"Billy and I went to the store." That's correct.

"Give the money to Billy and me." That's correct.

The reason is that "I" is the correct form to be the subject of the sentence, and "me" is the correct form to the object of the preposition "to."

Or, to put it another way:

"Me went to the store." That's incorrect.

"Give the money to I." That's incorrect.

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Lol that's so obvious though! I don't know how people misuse it. I think in a lot of cases it has to be deliberate, to try to be just like T.I. or ludacris haha
That's another thing look at all the song lyrics that are full of misuse of grammar. I was told very early in my life that if you're writing a poem and trying to be creative, if it rhymes and is used as a literary device, it's okay to misuse the grammar.

Originally Posted by mrblanche

Well, here's the reason.

"Billy and I went to the store." That's correct.

"Give the money to Billy and me." That's correct.

The reason is that "I" is the correct form to be the subject of the sentence, and "me" is the correct form to the object of the preposition "to."

Or, to put it another way:

"Me went to the store." That's incorrect.

"Give the money to I." That's incorrect.

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It does get confusing. Traditional grammar tells us to use the subject case pronoun when following a linking (state of being) verb such as is, was, were, seem, or appear.

So we should say "it was I" instead of "it was me." "Rather you than I" is correct while "rather you than me" is not.

But most people use "me" in these instances and that is changing the language. It's not bad or good, imo, just interesting.

Originally Posted by ut0pia

...That's another thing look at all the song lyrics that are full of misuse of grammar. I was told very early in my life that if you're writing a poem and trying to be creative, if it rhymes and is used as a literary device, it's okay to misuse the grammar.

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Artistic license... gotta love it!

Originally Posted by ut0pia

That's another thing look at all the song lyrics that are full of misuse of grammar. I was told very early in my life that if you're writing a poem and trying to be creative, if it rhymes and is used as a literary device, it's okay to misuse the grammar.

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I listen to a lot of bands that English was not their first (or maybe even second) language. This can mean a couple different things - one, that they occasionally make mistakes on words or grammar or two, that their grammar is actually very good.

Of course a lot of the stuff I listen to is in a much different category than mainstream music so it's not really a good comparison.

This is mostly referring to if one wants to make the argument that modern media is causing worsening of grammar.

Originally Posted by SwampWitch

Was this a hidden test?

Proper English would be "language and its demise" since you are using the possessive. "Its" is the same as hers, his, and theirs (no apostrophe). "It's" is a contraction for it is. Did I pass the test?

To answers the OP's question, I don't believe that English is in its demise. I think it's always changing, whether we like it or not. I am going to miss adverbs, though, they seem to be on the way out.

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It was not a test! It was an error on my part and you outed me!

If you haven't seen Idiocracy, you should.
It paints a pretty grim picture of one possible future.


It is a cheesy B comedy though by Mike Judge (Beavis & Butthead, King of the Hill & Office Space).

The only reason I bring up this movie on this thread is one of the narrator's lines in the movie as he describes the future:

"Unaware of what year it was, Joe wandered the streets desperate for help. But the English language had deteriorated into a hybrid of hillbilly, valleygirl, inner-city slang and various grunts."

I'm 36 now, and I diagrammed sentences in middle school (those grades, as I never had the chance to go to an actual separate school).

I'm also a writer. Yes, I make mistakes... especially on forums and when chatting... ESPECIALLY when chatting. But I do try to correct them as much as possible. I'm sure I have a few in my book... it happens. I'm also starting my journey toward an M.A. in English/Creative Writing. And yes, I want to teach Writing. (I know that was a sentence fragment that started wrong, but this is 'conversational' so that was a way of emphasizing that phrase.) I dream of the day when I can start each term of classes with, "No text speak, poor grammar or misspellings allowed. You will be marked down for this."

Changes are understandable... but what is going on these days is a deterioration in our language. It'll be a cold day in h*** before I write or speak 'street slang' or what I call Thug Talk. Anyone remember the whole Ebonics thing? I was having nightmares. Heck, I still do.

I'm sure I have more to say... but I'll go start my day off now... I'm mostly awake.

To close: I attended a Bellydance event last Saturday with a friend in her 50's. We were talking about movies we'd watched lately and the various Jane Austen flicks popped up. She commented that she was ecstatic over the fact that in one scene where a sword fight ensued, the one told the other that 'I will run you through' as opposed to shooting point blank or something else excessive. So proper and neat. (I think that was the line... it's been a while since I watched that particular movie). It is refreshing to go backand watch these movies (and read the books) with proper English.

Amanda

Originally Posted by ut0pia

Okay, I don't even know what diagramming is. I'm 20 and was in middle school (I assume that's when you're supposed to learn this??) 7-9 years ago. I think all of the grammar that I know is intuitive by the way. I don't know why you're not supposed to write "Billy and me", I just know it sounds wrong and "Billy and I" sounds right.
What's funny is that when I write on this thread, I find myself unconsciously more mindful of my grammar than when I write in other threads

I guess bringing grammar to our attention is a good thing!

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We would be given a list of sentences and we would have to identify each part of the sentence as to what it is; subject, object, verb, adjective, etc. We started around 5th or 6th grade and it continued through Freshman English. Starting with the sophomore year English classes became literature classes. We were required to take English all four years of high school.

Another thing that's confusing to me sometimes is how when there is uncertainty or emotion or something like that, it's okay to say "I were". As in, "If I were rich I'd buy a bigger house". Since English is not my native language, I started to study English as second language in 3rd grade in a non English speaking country and then in an American school in 6th grade, this never made any sense to me and I actually never heard of this when I learned English as a second language.
I think this is comparable to the spanish use of subjunctive when they conjugate everything differently in the subjunctive..But I think this is also something that's probably going to disappear from the english language.

Originally Posted by katiemae1277

when I write a paper for school or compose a business e-mail, I most definitely do

not so much when I type on a forum

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Yes, me too.

I don't proclaim to be grammatically correct 100% of the time, but in business dealings and formal occasions I do strive to be. So far as a forum goes, I'm dyslexic and I often don't bother checking for spelling and/or grammar.

Getting back to the original theme of the thread, I too am dismayed at the lack of respect that people these days have for learning and using the English language. Yes, it is a difficult language to learn, but it is a language and if you are going to learn it, you should be learning it well.