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post #31 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Have you guys ever communicated with anyone muslim on a personal basis?? One of my muslim friends rejects what all of those fundamentalists are doing, considers himself secular and non religious but will still avoid talking and even thinking about all of this because it makes them feel sinful and wrong to call them out and say out loud that they are wrong, it's just what muslim indoctrination has done for him...It scares me how people can be subjected to this. It really opens my eyes to how different they are and how our power organization is not effective on them.
Indoctrination seems to be a common thing. Many muslims living in the west post 9/11 had the unconfortable feeling that many people thought they may be possible muslim terrorists, with people changing subway seets to avoid sitting next to them and such nonsense.

christine
post #32 of 80
This is entirely not what I am talking about...
You should see this video it's very education the woman is a psychologist, she's arabic and very intelligent I think she explains everything very well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciOGS...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYB4p...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ough-e6ThWE ESPECIALLY THIS ONE
post #33 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Have you guys ever communicated with anyone muslim on a personal basis?? One of my muslim friends rejects what all of those fundamentalists are doing, considers himself secular and non religious but will still avoid talking and even thinking about all of this because it makes them feel sinful and wrong to call them out and say out loud that they are wrong, it's just what muslim indoctrination has done for him...It scares me how people can be subjected to this. It really opens my eyes to how different they are and how our power organization is not effective on them.
cjh27 I know you're in Germany so you must know many turks. I must say though European muslims are just not the same, I know many turkish myself and they are just totally secular ..
I really felt the same way you do- I was sure the US MUST NOT EVER TORTURE. Until some things just opened my eyes.
Actually yes, I do. I work with 3 Bosnian muslims, 2 black American muslims, 1 white American muslim and speak with nearly all of them daily. Not one of them harbor any desire to kill or enslave anyone, nor were they ever taught too. And, they all are quite upset with the impression that Islam is being given by a few radicals, and they are quite outspoken about it.
post #34 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Actually yes, I do. I work with 3 Bosnian muslims, 2 black American muslims, 1 white American muslim and speak with nearly all of them daily. Not one of them harbor any desire to kill or enslave anyone, nor were they ever taught too. And, they all are quite upset with the impression that Islam is being given by a few radicals, and they are quite outspoken about it.
Yea, I know a lot of muslims like that too. I think it depends on what country they are from. My best friend is a bosnian muslim and she's definitely not a radical and she just hates all the propaganda that's just directed to all muslims and tries to defend her religion, but I don't think she has ever had contact with any muslim radicals. The radicals are not as few as people tend to think. All they know is in their muslim communities there aren't any radicals and that's true but there are entire communities that are radical..Like in Afghanistan for example entire communities are radicals and my Turkish friends look at them and say I have nothing in common with these people, my beliefs are nothing like theirs. I know many people from Afghanistan who are having trouble reconciling what they've been taught there all of their lives and what western socity requires out of them. I don't know enough about Islam to condemn it as a violent religion so I'm not doing that at all..But reasoning with muslim radicals is the last thing I think we need to do because it's impossible.
post #35 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogs View Post
It seems that I recall a CNN reporter letting himself be waterboarded a couple of years ago.
You're right; there is precedent. He is not a reporter for CNN as far as I know, but Christopher Hitchens voluntarily underwent waterboarding last year:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...hitchens200808
post #36 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Yea, I know a lot of muslims like that too. I think it depends on what country they are from. My best friend is a bosnian muslim and she's definitely not a radical and she just hates all the propaganda that's just directed to all muslims and tries to defend her religion, but I don't think she has ever had contact with any muslim radicals. The radicals are not as few as people tend to think. All they know is in their muslim communities there aren't any radicals and that's true but there are entire communities that are radical..Like in Afghanistan for example entire communities are radicals and my Turkish friends look at them and say I have nothing in common with these people, my beliefs are nothing like theirs. I know many people from Afghanistan who are having trouble reconciling what they've been taught there all of their lives and what western socity requires out of them. I don't know enough about Islam to condemn it as a violent religion so I'm not doing that at all..But reasoning with muslim radicals is the last thing I think we need to do because it's impossible.
I would suggest that it's the "radical" part of "radical Muslim" that's dangerous and not the Muslim part. Otherwise, it's like assuming all Christians think like Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church. After all, if you asked him where he got his beliefs, he'd point to the Bible, just like the openly gay Episcopal bishop would. I've read the Qu'ran and, while I could see how you can get "kill everyone who isn't a Muslim" out of it, you have to really do a lot of mental gymnastics and ignore a lot of verses that plainly say things like 'Cause no harm to the People of the Book (Jews, Christians, and Muslims.)' The problem is any belief system that says that it's OK to kill other people simply because they disagree with you, their skin color is different, etc. Although we do better today for the most part, we (the western nations) don't exactly have a great track record when you look back a century or two.

The problem with lowering our standards and torturing terrorists because 'they'll hate us no matter what we do' isn't with the true believers like KSM who are being tortured. Fair enough. But there are people whose minds can be changed. Depending on how they're influenced, they can either become the next wave of suicide bombers or they can come to see that what the people in charge are telling them is a bunch of bologna. One way to get that message across is to show that we treat everybody fairly and not just those who like us. Doing the right thing is hard and sometimes it gets you kicked in the teeth, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the right thing to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by motoko9 View Post
You're right; there is precedent. He is not a reporter for CNN as far as I know, but Christopher Hitchens voluntarily underwent waterboarding last year:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...hitchens200808
Great, thanks.
post #37 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogs View Post
I would suggest that it's the "radical" part of "radical Muslim" that's dangerous and not the Muslim part. Otherwise, it's like assuming all Christians think like Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church. After all, if you asked him where he got his beliefs, he'd point to the Bible, just like the openly gay Episcopal bishop would
Hmm...The Westboro baptist church people are a very small organizations that most christians consider crazy... There are too many radical muslims to be able to comapre them to the Westboro baptist church. I mean, it takes more than just a few crazy radicals to democratically elect Hamas into power, it takes a majority vote.
According to my personal observations, the muslims that I know who claim to be nothing close to those radicals are the ones who aren't all that religious in the first place..
The muslims that I know who are religious, don't drink alcohol or eat pork for any reason are the ones who feel as though those fundamentalist aren't as bad as the west makes them out to be.
Maybe it isn't Islam that turns these people into terrorists, maybe it's the general sentiment of revenge to the ones who keep them out of Jerusalem, who rob them of their ability to worship their religion since they cannot go to Jerusalem. But I just see that Muslims who are so devoted to their religion even if they may not be as violent as those fundamentalists they still have that same barrier with anything western and simply don't fit into western society.
I got off track but back to the topic, I think those non violent but religious muslims who have grown up in a muslim society obviously would never be faced with being inmates in a terrorist prison...
But even they are so different that to me cannot be treated the way we treat any other westerner..Look at how their laws operate, their theocratic regimes usually include torture for things such as allowing a woman to drive in the front seat. Now, anyone who is okay with having such laws probably can't change his mind no matter how much he's taught about our western world.
post #38 of 80
I just wanted to point out that it is not Islam or being a Muslim that makes one a terrorist. I feel the need to just say a few things. First off education. In the middle east, especially now, education is not a big thing because many schools that (very few...) were built often getr torn down by terrorist groups or those who dont agree with women getting an education or anybody for that matter. So for young boys, who have no education, know nothing about the outside world to make their own opinion on "who is bad" and "who isnt bad". They believe their "elders" and often they get recruited into Al Qaeda (sp?) because they believed they were getting paid for it, and they have really no other way to get money and no education to tell them to do otehrwise. Obviously after being in such groups will develop their minds into believeing all the things the terrorists believe. I am in no way trying to say that they have an excuse because what they do is wrong. Im not too sure exactly why or how this hatred developed of Americans (it is not only us they hate though) but i know it has nothing to do with Islam or being a muslim. Im just sick of people blaming all Muslims and calling them evil and what not.
My eyes were opened when I read the book "Three Cups Of Tea" by: Greg Mortenson. It was amazing and before i read the book last year, i was a bit timid around muslim looking people, but i realized and learned that they are just people. I know i am getting off topic, sorry, i just wanted to voice this becuase i feel like muslims are often misunderstood. I am just refering to the general publics views.....

I still feel like America shouldnt torture for information. I dunno maybe i am crazy but i still feel like we were supposed to be "the good guys" and set an example for other countries. And how do they know when they "torture" and they give info, if it is true or not? Also wasnt all this stuff not really known by the general public until the last several years? Most people i have talked to about this, didnt know we even did torture...
post #39 of 80
So has anyone heard when Sean is going to do it? It looks like he is backing off after all.
post #40 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
So has anyone heard when Sean is going to do it? It looks like he is backing off after all.

Haha I wouldnt doubt it!! I never really believed he was going to do it....lol
post #41 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogs View Post
It would still be pretty crappy, but if you're not afraid the torturers are really going to drown you, it loses a lot of its sting.
I don't really believe that it would make any difference if you did know. Once you are in the situation, I think all the assurances would fly right out the window.

As far as I can tell, Hannity hasn't actually been waterboarded yet. I will be shocked if he actually has the cajones to go through with it. (I wouldn't).
post #42 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuneBugBear07 View Post
I still feel like America shouldnt torture for information. I dunno maybe i am crazy but i still feel like we were supposed to be "the good guys" and set an example for other countries. And how do they know when they "torture" and they give info, if it is true or not? Also wasnt all this stuff not really known by the general public until the last several years? Most people i have talked to about this, didnt know we even did torture...
It's been proven that it actually doesn't lead to good information, because people will say anything to get the torture to stop. Which makes sense. There are much better ways to get information, ways that won't end up being such a great recruitment tool for anti-american terrorist groups and gives us no moral ground to stand on if our citizens are being subjected to torture anywhere in the world.
post #43 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty8723 View Post
It's been proven that it actually doesn't lead to good information, because people will say anything to get the torture to stop. Which makes sense. There are much better ways to get information, ways that won't end up being such a great recruitment tool for anti-american terrorist groups and gives us no moral ground to stand on if our citizens are being subjected to torture anywhere in the world.
That isn't true that, "It's been proven that it actually doesn't lead to good information,"

According to what is being said, there were terrorists attacks stopped because of the waterboarding. The part of the memo's that were realeased was the waterboarding itself, the part of the memo's that are still classified is the information obtained by the waterboarding. I believe even Barack himself had to admit that useful information was obtained by watherboarding.

The question is, does the end justify the means?

I have to go by what I feel the Lord would want and I just can't see Jesus being in favor of waterboarding.

But I do understand why it was done and I wish they would drop it and MOVE ON.
post #44 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
According to what is being said, there were terrorists attacks stopped because of the waterboarding.
Say what? I'd love to see the source of that.
post #45 of 80
Thread Starter 
They haven't declassified that part.

I saw some screen shots or something of the memo's and there was most of it was blacked out.
The only thing that was visible was the part about the waterboarding.

If they felt the need to declassify the waterboarding part, they should have declassified it all, but no, they only declassified the part that riles everyone up. Go figure


http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/2009/0...FF00_us_obama/

Sounds like Obama thinks waterboarding gleaned information. I heard that speech that he made in honor of his first 100 days of the Obama regime.
post #46 of 80
I never thought Hannity would ultimately go thru with the waterboarding. I dunno, those self-satisfied smirks with half closed eyes, thrown back head and that overfed looking face just always irked the heck out of me and it gave me an impression of him just being another big mouthed 'blowhard' type.
post #47 of 80
Getting viable information via torture???
Here's an article from last weeks Newsweek that addresses that very question. The source for the article was none other than an FBI agent who was directly involved in interrogation at the very beginning.

What he has to say is VERY interesting!

‘We Could Have Done This the Right Way’
The arguments at the CIA safe house were loud and intense in the spring of 2002. Inside, a high-value terror suspect, Abu Zubaydah, was handcuffed to a gurney. He had been wounded during his capture in Pakistan and still had bullet fragments in his stomach, leg and groin. Agency operatives were aiming to crack him with rough and unorthodox interrogation tactics—including stripping him nude, turning down the temperature and bombarding him with loud music. But one impassioned young FBI agent wanted nothing to do with it. He tried to stop them.

April 25, 2009 | National News | By Michael Isikoff
http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089
post #48 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty8723 View Post
It's been proven that it actually doesn't lead to good information, because people will say anything to get the torture to stop.
As Cindy has already said, this isn't true.

From an April 17, 2009 Wall Street Journal article by Gen. Michael Hayden, director of the CIA from 2006 -2009, and Michael B. Mukasey, attorney general of the United States from 2007 - 2009 (sorry, I can't find a link for it):

"...the next of the justifications for disclosing and thus abandoning these measures (various interrogation techniques including waterboarding): that they don't work anyway, and that those who are subjected to them will simply make up information in order to end their ordeal. This ignorant view of how interrogations are conducted is belied by both experience and common sense. If coercive interrogation has been administered to obtain confessions, one might understand the argument. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM), who organized the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, among others, and who boasted of having beheaded Daniel Pearl, could eventually have felt pressed to provide a false confession. But confessions aren't the point. Intelligence is. Interrogation is conducted by using such obvious approaches as asking questions whose correct answers are already known and only when truthful information is provided proceeding to what may not be known. Moreover, intelligence can be verified, correlated and used to get information from other detainees, and has been; none of this information is used in isolation.

The terrorist Abu Zubaydah...disclosed some information voluntarily. But he was coerced into disclosing information that led to the capture of Ramzi bin al Shibh, another of the planners of Sept. 11, who in turn disclosed information which - when combined with what was learned from Abu Zubaydah - helped lead to the capture of KSM and other senior terrorists, and the disruption of follow-on plots aimed at both Europe and the US. Details of these successes, and the methods used to obtain them, were disclosed repeatedly in more than 30 congressional briefings and hearings beginning in 2002..."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty8723 View Post
There are much better ways to get information, ways that won't end up being such a great recruitment tool for anti-american terrorist groups and gives us no moral ground to stand on if our citizens are being subjected to torture anywhere in the world.
What specifically are those "much better ways to get information'"?

From the WSJ article: "The techniques themselves were used selectively against only a small number of hard-core prisoners who successfully resisted other forms of interrogation, and then only with the explicit authorization of the director of the CIA. Of the thousands of unlawful combatants captured by the US, fewer than 100 were detained and questioned in the CIA program. Of those, fewer than one-third were subjected to any of the techniques discussed in these opinions...Even with the growing success of other intelligence tools, fully half of the government's knowledge about the structure and activities of al Qaeda came from those interrogations."

Another quote from the same article on the subject of our techniques being used as a "recruitment tool":

"...it seems unlikely that the people who beheaded Nicholas Berg and Daniel Pearl, and have tortured and slain other American captives, are likely to be shamed into giving up violence by the news that the US will no longer interrupt the sleep cycle of captured terrorists even to help elicit intellligence that could save the lives of its citizens."

Terrorists have no honor, nor morality. It is naive to think that if the US discontinues enhanced interrogation techniques, they will behave in kind.
post #49 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PookieBoy View Post
Getting viable information via torture???
Here's an article from last weeks Newsweek that addresses that very question. The source for the article was none other than an FBI agent who was directly involved in interrogation at the very beginning.

What he has to say is VERY interesting!

‘We Could Have Done This the Right Way’
The arguments at the CIA safe house were loud and intense in the spring of 2002. Inside, a high-value terror suspect, Abu Zubaydah, was handcuffed to a gurney. He had been wounded during his capture in Pakistan and still had bullet fragments in his stomach, leg and groin. Agency operatives were aiming to crack him with rough and unorthodox interrogation tactics—including stripping him nude, turning down the temperature and bombarding him with loud music. But one impassioned young FBI agent wanted nothing to do with it. He tried to stop them.

April 25, 2009 | National News | By Michael Isikoff
http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089
Hey, I am just going by Obama's own words PookieBoy.
post #50 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Hey, I am just going by Obama's own words PookieBoy.
As you put it, Obama said that waterboarding gleaned information. He never once said that it was useful information. Y'all just need to get used to his lawyer speak.
post #51 of 80
I've been trying very hard to figure out how to respond to the comments about muslims on this thread, but I really am at a loss. If anyone would like to get to know an ordinary, average american muslim who is religious but is in no way a terrorist, just give me a shout. And no, it's not because I was raised in the west. I'm married to a religious muslim man born and raised in Egypt who is also in no way a terrorist.

We do not live in the middle ages, we're both big into knowledge (both have bachelors degrees, debating what to study further), and the husband is big into science. He'll actually sit and watch science documentaries for hours on end, just for the fun of it.

I wish I could articulate better what I feel, but words escape me at present.


On the subject of water boarding, Christopher Hitchens volunteered to be water boarded last year. It was not fun -http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808
post #52 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
As you put it, Obama said that waterboarding gleaned information. He never once said that it was useful information. Y'all just need to get used to his lawyer speak.
He never once said it wasn't useful information either.

He also said the "I think we could have gotten that information another way"
to me that sounds like it was information that was useful.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should waterboard either. I just don't think it is right to tell half the story.
post #53 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsknowme View Post
I agree with you!!! Guess they just don't make Americans like they used to ---look at the atrocities that the Japanese & the Germans used on our POWs, yet our fathers and grandfathers weren't out screaming that we should do the same. No, we were the Americans, the free and the brave, the Beacon of Democracy and Justice that shone throughout the rest of the world
And for anyone who honestly feels that the Muslims are out to get "us" just because of religion, they really, really need to check out some alternate media, such as FreespeechTV and/or WorldLinkTV and see why people feel like they do. Poverty and the sights and sounds of their children dying do so much to parents' hearts; the experience of growing up in an area where 3 out of 5 children will die before they reach 15 causes a different outlook to a young person's mind.
Heck, even a check on history might reveal why the Middle East isn't exactly happy with the Western World. The British conquered & divided, and when were the conquered ever happy about that
Would we like it if China uses their financial and military power, and takes our US lands for the resources, then divies our states into regions of their own making??? Would we just "take it", esp. if they told us we couldn't be Christians any more???
No one on this thread has been talking about Muslims in "general", I have been re-reading the thread because of Rahma's post.
It seems that when Muslims have been, specifically, mentioned it has been, "Muslim Terrorists", not the every day ordinary Muslim that quietly goes about his business living his life hurting no one.

FTR, no one could tell me that I couldn't be a Christian anymore. They may try to tell me that but, sorry, it wouldn't work.
post #54 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
As you put it, Obama said that waterboarding gleaned information. He never once said that it was useful information. Y'all just need to get used to his lawyer speak.
And the memos themselves say that he is wrong. They say they got useful information, and that they had NOT gotten any useful information using previous methods. For him to say that it "could have been gotten by other means" shows that either he didn't read the whole memo, or he is assuming that some other method would have worked eventually.
post #55 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
No one on this thread has been talking about Muslims in "general", I have been re-reading the thread because of Rahma's post.
It seems that when Muslims have been, specifically, mentioned it has been, "Muslim Terrorists", not the every day ordinary Muslim that quietly goes about his business living his life hurting no one.
No, religious muslims have been spoken about, those that abstain from pork and alcohol. The good muslims are those that are secular and non religious.

In particular:

Quote:
According to my personal observations, the muslims that I know who claim to be nothing close to those radicals are the ones who aren't all that religious in the first place..
The muslims that I know who are religious, don't drink alcohol or eat pork for any reason are the ones who feel as though those fundamentalist aren't as bad as the west makes them out to be.
Quote:
However, in the muslim world it's different- they are still operating on the level of the middle ages, science and knowledge is something they do not care for.
Granted, these are all based on personal beliefs and people the poster has met, which is why I offered myself as someone who would go against their preconceived notions of what a religious muslim is like.
post #56 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahma View Post
No, religious muslims have been spoken about, those that abstain from pork and alcohol. The good muslims are those that are secular and non religious.

In particular:





Granted, these are all based on personal beliefs and people the poster has met, which is why I offered myself as someone who would go against their preconceived notions of what a religious muslim is like.
I stand corrected.
I don't for a second believe that all devout Muslims are terrorists.
post #57 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by PookieBoy View Post
Getting viable information via torture???
Torture, no. But yes, there's been extremely valuable information gathered through enhanced interrogation techniques, (though critics of the CIA have tried to debunk the intelligence). The information was detailed in documents that Obama released. They include the discovery of a KSM plot, the "Second Wave", to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked plane into a building in Los Angeles. Additional information obtained from KSM led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, as well as the discovery of the Guraba Cell. The 17 members of the cell were to execute the "Second Wave".


Quote:
Originally Posted by PookieBoy View Post
'We Could Have Done This the Right Way’
The arguments at the CIA safe house were loud and intense in the spring of 2002. Inside, a high-value terror suspect, Abu Zubaydah, was handcuffed to a gurney. He had been wounded during his capture in Pakistan and still had bullet fragments in his stomach, leg and groin. Agency operatives were aiming to crack him with rough and unorthodox interrogation tactics—including stripping him nude, turning down the temperature and bombarding him with loud music. But one impassioned young FBI agent wanted nothing to do with it. He tried to stop them.

Come on. My grandfather had bits of shrapnel in his legs and abdomen for the rest of his life after being shot up by the Germans. He managed.

As for "rough and unorthodox interrogation tactics" such as stripping the terrorist nude, turning down the temp and bombarding him with music...is this for real? I'm reading it again - yes, it says "rough and unorthodox". Oh, the horror. I won't admit to laughing, but I am definitely smirking. Please, guys at boot camp and pledges at frat houses endure harsher treatment.

Perhaps you can understand my sarcasm when you consider what constitutes actual torture. Learn what Iraqi citizens and our soldiers are subjected to by al Qaeda. Please note that there are graphic illustrations and photos on this site.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...2torture1.html
post #58 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTLynn View Post
As for "rough and unorthodox interrogation tactics" such as stripping the terrorist nude, turning down the temp and bombarding him with music...is this for real? I'm reading it again - yes, it says "rough and unorthodox". Oh, the horror. I won't admit to laughing, but I am definitely smirking. Please, guys at boot camp and pledges at frat houses endure harsher treatment.

Perhaps you can understand my sarcasm when you consider what constitutes actual torture. Learn what Iraqi citizens and our soldiers are subjected to by al Qaeda. Please note that there are graphic illustrations and photos on this site.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...2torture1.html
Does it matter how extreme the torture? I thought that the United States set itself apart from the rest of the world by not lowering itself to torture. If you condone torture in any form, aren't you opening up yourself to having yourself tortured in return? That's a double standard.
post #59 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
Does it matter how extreme the torture? I thought that the United States set itself apart from the rest of the world by not lowering itself to torture. If you condone torture in any form, aren't you opening up yourself to having yourself tortured in return? That's a double standard.

Are you actually saying loud music and turning down the thermostat is torture now?
post #60 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTLynn View Post
Torture, no. But yes, there's been extremely valuable information gathered through enhanced interrogation techniques, (though critics of the CIA have tried to debunk the intelligence). The information was detailed in documents that Obama released. They include the discovery of a KSM plot, the "Second Wave", to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked plane into a building in Los Angeles. Additional information obtained from KSM led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, as well as the discovery of the Guraba Cell. The 17 members of the cell were to execute the "Second Wave".
1) We called it "torture" when the Japanese (who we tried) did it to our soldiers. It used to be called "water torture". This whole "enhance interrogation techniques" and "waterboarding" terminology was introduced to belie the fact that, yes, it is torture, and not surprisingly, the people who introduced those terms were the ones who were doing it.

2) Maybe we could have gotten even better intelligence by hooking car batteries to these guys. Or taking pliers to their fingers. Or maybe a few blows across the head with a baseball bat. If the argument is that torturing these guys was OK because it got results, then any method that gets even better results would also be acceptable.

3) Would you be OK with the police using this technique on one of your family members? If not, then why is it an acceptable practice for the CIA? It doesn't matter what Al Qaeda is doing. We KNOW that they're jerks. We know that we're better than them and being better means acting better. There should be one standard for basic human decency and it should apply across the board regardless of whether the person is a citizen or a member of a group we don't like. Doing the right thing is hard, but that's no excuse not to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KTLynn View Post
Come on. My grandfather had bits of shrapnel in his legs and abdomen for the rest of his life after being shot up by the Germans. He managed.
Your grandfather was shot as an armed combatant on a battlefield and not a helpless prisoner completely at the mercy of his captors. If he had been taken to a prison camp and then been shot, the people who did it would have been hung. We did that to quite a few people after WWII.
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