Abayomi Abyssianians - Vancouver: Any opinions?

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mews2much

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The breeder of Wrinkles does not show but I could visit her cattery if I want.
She breeds for health and the breed standards.
The reason she does not show is she does not wnat to bring germs into her cattery.
It is just to far for me to go visit.
The breeder that has the sire does show.
 

cococat

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Originally Posted by Yosemite

I just have to ask - why is it so very important to show cats? If a breeder is responsible, has healthy cats and loves the breed, why can they not breed for the sake of love? I could honestly care less if the mother/father of my cat was a champion/show cat. I just find this rather "stuffy".
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And how do they know about the breed? How did they gain their knowledge, by buying from a cattery that does show and test so they produce good breed reps for many generations? Or by buying a cat from a breeding program that does nothing? You can get "nice pets" breeding mixes. There are hundreds of great family pets people love that they got from rescues and shelters or found on the street.
Originally Posted by Yosemite

Again, I go back to Bijou - he is the most amazing and wonderful cat we've ever, ever, ever had and so is Mika. I would take bets that Carol thinks pretty much the same of Tianna. Their dame and sire are not champion show cats. I would take any one of these 3 cats over many champion/show cats any day.
How can you say this if you haven't lived with any champion/show cats? They are loved pets too. And most of their offspring go to pet homes, where they are cherished just as much as you love your pets. Most pets are loved and cherished, regardless of background. So that statement doesn't make much sense.
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by cococat

And how do they know about the breed? How did they gain their knowledge, by buying from a cattery that does show and test so they produce good breed reps for many generations? Or by buying a cat from a breeding program that does nothing? You can get "nice pets" breeding mixes. There are hundreds of great family pets people love that they got from rescues and shelters or found on the street.

How can you say this if you haven't lived with any champion/show cats? They are loved pets too. And most of their offspring go to pet homes, where they are cherished just as much as you love your pets. Most pets are loved and cherished, regardless of background. So that statement doesn't make much sense.
I can only say that I don't believe a person getting a pet "anything" because they really like the look/temperament/whatever needs to only buy from a breeder that shows or has champions. I also agree you can get nice pets from mixes but that isn't what this thread is about - it's about breeders of pedigree cats and not necessarily "show/champion" cats.

I'm quite sure that I could love a champion/show cat as much as anyone else can, but I still stand by my statement that at this present time in my life and with my knowledge and experience of Bijou, Mika and Tianna, if they were being offered, I would choose one of them over any other cat out there if I were making a choice today and had that knowledge to use in making that choice, so it makes perfect sense to me.
 

goldenkitty45

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As an ex-breeder and pet owner of purebred cats, when you do show, you prove your cats ARE of the proper type, temperment, etc. When you don't, you just are breeding nice pet cats - but you are in no way "improving" the breed and really that should be the objective in getting into breeding purebred cats.

There are tons of breeders on the net that the only thing reason they breed is NOT for the love of the breed - its to make money. And why go thru all the trouble of testing your cats, researching lines, breeding the best to the best if you are not gonna be showing them too?

Reputable breeders do not sell whole cats to those who have no interest in showing - their reputation is on the line. And if the person is gonna just breed to breed then they do not want their cats in someone's house that is not serious about improving the cats and showing them.

Granted not all show quality cats like showing in the rings, but the QUALITY is there.

I'm glad you like your cats - that's great - but a serious breeder shows and breeds the best to the best.

I never bred my rexes without wanting to breed the best quality I could. I would have loved to have found more show homes as 90% of my kittens would have competed very well in the show rings.

I did not breed my Cornies just to produce a cute little pet quality kitten for someone!
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

There are tons of breeders on the net that the only thing reason they breed is NOT for the love of the breed - its to make money.

Reputable breeders do not sell whole cats to those who have no interest in showing - their reputation is on the line. And if the person is gonna just breed to breed then they do not want their cats in someone's house that is not serious about improving the cats and showing them.

Granted not all show quality cats like showing in the rings, but the QUALITY is there.

I'm glad you like your cats - that's great - but a serious breeder shows and breeds the best to the best.

I never bred my rexes without wanting to breed the best quality I could. I would have loved to have found more show homes as 90% of my kittens would have competed very well in the show rings.

I did not breed my Cornies just to produce a cute little pet quality kitten for someone!
Interesting post - I understood that there is no money to be made in breeding so I'm a bit confused.

So you are saying if there are breeders that choose good bloodlines to produce quality cats but they don't show, then they are not "reputable"? I'll have to say I'll agree to disagree on that personally.

As for a "serious breeder", I have to say in all honesty that I would hardly be able to afford even a pet quality cat from one of these breeders so I'm sure glad there are some others out there that allow poorer folks like me to enjoy these wonderful animals. Otherwise only the rich or well-to-do would be able to have that pleasure.
 

goldenkitty45

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Not true at all. Reputable breeders really don't make money - they have expenses of quality food, showing, stud service, testing, shots, etc.

Rarely do pet cat breeding do all that for their cats - so the money they charge goes into their pockets - not back into the expenses of showing, etc.

I feel that if you don't breed to produce SHOW quality cats then you should not be breeding the cats. And not every show quality cat will have show quality kittens - there are plenty that don't measure up for the show ring but are sold as pet quality and SPAYED AND NEUTERED - not sent to others to breed.

And many breeders don't charge an arm and a leg for these pet quality kittens either. And how can a breeder who doesn't show their cats KNOW what quality is?
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Not true at all. Reputable breeders really don't make money - they have expenses of quality food, showing, stud service, testing, shots, etc.

Rarely do pet cat breeding do all that for their cats - so the money they charge goes into their pockets - not back into the expenses of showing, etc.

I feel that if you don't breed to produce SHOW quality cats then you should not be breeding the cats. And not every show quality cat will have show quality kittens - there are plenty that don't measure up for the show ring but are sold as pet quality and SPAYED AND NEUTERED - not sent to others to breed.

And many breeders don't charge an arm and a leg for these pet quality kittens either. And how can a breeder who doesn't show their cats KNOW what quality is?
My experience has been that any breeder needs to pay stud fees (unless they have their own stud), pay for food, litter, first vaccinations, so the only expense they don't have is the entrance fee to show and testing (although I understand some do test).

I suppose it depends on how much you consider an "arm and a leg" as to whether they are affordable to the average Joe (Josephine) like me.
 

whiteforest

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I'm chiming in here as someone who neither breeds nor owns purebred cats... In my opinion, paying for a purebred cat as a "pet only" from a reputable breeder means not only purchasing a cat with a certain physical appearance you desire, but purchasing a peace of mind knowing that the cats in the the lines are either free and clear of any genetic health issues or what potential health issues may be present.

Health/genetic testing and general care by veterinarians is a way to determine if a cat should or should not be bred based on their health. Showing cats, in my mind, is a way for breeders to have their breeding stock evaluated on a physical standard to determine whether or not it's a cat that should be bred. Both of these factors combined are what tell a reputable breeder to breed or to neuter, and the process to determine that is a costly one. In an effort to break even, kittens cost more.
 

wellingtoncats

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Originally Posted by Yosemite

So you are saying if there are breeders that choose good bloodlines to produce quality cats but they don't show, then they are not "reputable"? I'll have to say I'll agree to disagree on that personally.
I'd have to disagree with you on this, Linda.
 

nekochan

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I have a wonderful cat who is not from a "show" breeder but does match the standard except for one way. We wanted a certain color of Maine Coon (black)-- which is often not bred by "show" breeders because they don't do well in the show ring. In fact another breeder I was looking into getting a cat from did not have any planned litters with black kittens because they are hard to show, and the last time I talked to her at a show she said she wasn't going to breed for black anymore for that reason.
My Maine Coon would be "show quality" if she wasn't polydactyl. I love the polydactyls and it bothers me that they cannot be shown, since this trait was present in the original Maine Coons. My cat has been shown in "New Traits" (TICA) and HHP (CFA).
 

wellingtoncats

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Originally Posted by Nekochan

I have a wonderful cat who is not from a "show" breeder but does match the standard except for one way. We wanted a certain color of Maine Coon (black)-- which is often not bred by "show" breeders because they don't do well in the show ring. In fact another breeder I was looking into getting a cat from did not have any planned litters with black kittens because they are hard to show, and the last time I talked to her at a show she said she wasn't going to breed for black anymore for that reason.
My Maine Coon would be "show quality" if she wasn't polydactyl. I love the polydactyls and it bothers me that they cannot be shown, since this trait was present in the original Maine Coons. My cat has been shown in "New Traits" (TICA) and HHP (CFA).
I think I've said it before but come and live in NZ where multiple toes are welcome in MCO. In fact I was the second judge in New Zealand [pipped at the post by 5 minutes] to judge one.
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by whiteforest

I'm chiming in here as someone who neither breeds nor owns purebred cats... In my opinion, paying for a purebred cat as a "pet only" from a reputable breeder means not only purchasing a cat with a certain physical appearance you desire, but purchasing a peace of mind knowing that the cats in the the lines are either free and clear of any genetic health issues or what potential health issues may be present..
Yes, here I totally agree- plus you should get a cat that has been well socialized.

I'd also always have a look at the living conditions of the studs, which must be accepable. For me personally this would mean no studs living in cages.


Originally Posted by whiteforest

Health/genetic testing and general care by veterinarians is a way to determine if a cat should or should not be bred based on their health. Showing cats, in my mind, is a way for breeders to have their breeding stock evaluated on a physical standard to determine whether or not it's a cat that should be bred. Both of these factors combined are what tell a reputable breeder to breed or to neuter, and the process to determine that is a costly one. In an effort to break even, kittens cost more.
Yes and No. A breeder should take each cat to at least one or two shows to have it evaluated. I wouldn't nessesarily buy a cat from a breeder who's constantly going to shows with the cats as breeding also shouldn't just be about prizes and shows (and this is the feeling I get with some breeders) ....

I'm friends with an Aby breeder who goes to shows every now and then, she once told me that the greatest compliment she ever got from a fellow breeder was that her cats have an unbelievable low inbreeding value.

regards,

christine
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

I'd have to disagree with you on this, Linda.
I'm just a bit confused, you disagree that they are "reputable" or you disagree they are "not reputable"?


Originally Posted by Nekochan

I have a wonderful cat who is not frnm a "show" breeder but does match the standard except for one way. We wanted a certain color of Maine Coon (black)-- which is often not bred by "show" breeders because they don't do well in the show ring. In fact another breeder I was looking into getting a cat from did not have any planned litters with black kittens because they are hard to show, and the last time I talked to her at a show she said she wasn't going to breed for black anymore for that reason.
My Maine Coon would be "show quality" if she wasn't polydactyl. I love the polydactyls and it bothers me that they cannot be shown, since this trait was present in the original Maine Coons. My cat has been shown in "New Traits" (TICA) and HHP (CFA).
And that's part of the problem I have with some breeders and the associations that dictate what is and is not acceptable. Who gets to say that a black Maine Coon is not as worthy as the others or it's a "throwaway" because it has 6 toes?
 

goldenkitty45

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If you show you know that certain colors or styles are more popular then others. Solid Maine Coons are not a popular color in the breed and breeders will want to work with what will sell. If you have quality cats, you CAN get grands in most any color if you work on it.

It took YEARS and YEARS for Turkish Angora breeders to be willing to work with the other non-white TA's. You only have recently seen non white TA's in shows because a few breeders kept working with the colors till they were as good of quality as the white ones. This takes a heck of a lot of work, time, money AND SHOWING the cats in many shows to be accepted.

That is why its important for dedicated reputable breeders to breed the best to the best and to get out and show their cats.

Believe me, when the color TA's were first out there, the type and quality were NO where near what the white ones were.
 

mews2much

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Wrinkles breeder does not show but she breeds with cats that are shown.
Sphynx were not allowed in CFA before.
The good breeders I know are not in it for the money at all.
It is not cheap to breed.
Some of them are losing money in fact.
Showing is not cheap either.
It adds uo fast.
I am the first one to show a cat fromthe breeder Wrinkles came from.
I already got told off in august over this at a show.
 

wellingtoncats

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Originally Posted by Yosemite

I'm just a bit confused, you disagree that they are "reputable" or you disagree they are "not reputable"?




And that's part of the problem I have with some breeders and the associations that dictate what is and is not acceptable. Who gets to say that a black Maine Coon is not as worthy as the others or it's a "throwaway" because it has 6 toes?
I disagree with you that they are reputable
 

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Originally Posted by Sohni

I can offer an opinion there. It is insanely difficult to show cats in the Vancouver/Vancouver Island/Lower Mainland area. There are on average one show per registry per year within a 5 hour drive. It's been driving me crazy.
You're very correct here. Not everybody has the luxury of being able to show frequently. I'm fortunate enough to have at least one show within a day's driving distance nearly every weekend of the year--in CFA alone! And I usually have a pick between two or three shows at that.

Yet there are other ways to have the quality of a program evaluated and recognized. While a breeder might not be able to show their cats personally, they can still work with other breeders who are able to show. A breeder with limited showing options also has to cherry pick their shows carefully and make sure to attend the shows that are most important for their particular breed.
 

cococat

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Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

I disagree with you that they are reputable
Me too. Anyone at all can go out and buy (have shipped or pick up in person) two cats and become a "breeder". That is why reputable breeders send pet quality cats home already altered. Anyone can (on purpose or "accidently") be a breeder of mixes or purebreds, and many do during the course of life, a quick internet search or look in the paper will show this. But there is A LOT more to reputable breeding than just buying two cats and breeding. Even if you do pay for the shots on the kittens, and have a pedigree in your hands, it matters little if you don't know a thing about it or the cats in that pedigree or really have hands on knowledge of the breed standard, there is so much more to breeding than that to be reputable and responsible when breeding cats IMO.
 

mews2much

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That is true.
So many breeders know nothing about HCM which sphynx get.
You really need to have a pedigree when you get purebred cats so you know if anything runs in the lines.
 

missymotus

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Originally Posted by Yosemite

I have to say in all honesty that I would hardly be able to afford even a pet quality cat from one of these breeders so I'm sure glad there are some others out there that allow poorer folks like me to enjoy these wonderful animals.
I disagree that only 'rich' people can afford purebred cats from reputable breeders, I know I certainly didn't decide on a purebred one day and go out and pay for one the next.
A little planning and saving (even over a year or two) and most people can afford a purebred.

Also, over here most pet quality cats are the same price as show neuters. It's only entires that have a price difference.
 
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