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6 Iditarod Dogs die - is it cruelty, or just the sport?

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/ap_al...ry/734409.html
Two of the dogs, belonging to a rookie named Packer, died in a windstorm that some experienced Alaskans have criticized because the musher went into open country instead of hunkering down in the trees.
Is it wrong to have a race where dogs die? After all, race horses die during mishaps, too, as well as rodeo animals and that's acceptable......
The sad part, for me, is that those dogs died for glory and money, and not because they were on a life-saving mission. But, again, they died with "their boots on", doing what they love to do.
post #2 of 41
These guys have a whole different view of their dogs from what most of us have. They're not usually pampered pets, and they're often not much tamer than a wolf.

Also, the competitors in the race occasionally die, too.

That said, we visited with Susan Butcher near Fairbanks, AK, and she had with her one of her lead dogs, and he was clearly a pet at that time.

Personally, I don't have any use for any sport that requires that much cold.
post #3 of 41
Years ago we got a Siberian Husky puppy from a breeder that went to this race every year. I don't think he was one of the top competitors that had a view of winning at all costs but the dogs that he raced weren't treated like pets. They were cared for and they weren't vicious either. This guy sounds like he didn't really know what he was doing. It's like any other sport, there are people who are either ignorant or take the win at all costs attitude too far. The people running the race do all they can to make sure the dogs aren't put at more risk than what a race like this would entail. It is by it's very nature a dangerous sport and I believe it is made as safe as it can be.
post #4 of 41
"Is it wrong to have a race where dogs die?" I think it's wrong to do anything that intentionally causes pain, suffering and death to animals. I don't think that's the case in the Itidarod. It sounds to me like these dogs died as the result of an error in judgment. I don't think we need to condemn a sport where death or injury results from an accident or error of judgment. If that were the case, we'd have to shut down NASCAR.
post #5 of 41
this is a tough topic for me I do not like horse racing or dog racing and I do not like the rodeo for the reasons that the animals are exploited for human entertainment. This really isn't the same thing though IMO, this is what these dogs do but I still think it's awful that some have to die.

Also, it's not the same as NASCAR or another sport that humans engage in by choice, they know the risks and can make a concious decision, animals cannot do that, they do what we want/tell them to do, hence my use of the term exploitation.

I know every horse trainer and jockey or sled driver is different and many if not even most of them take excellent care of their animals, I just don't like the idea of animals being used for sport.

Oh, another thing, I HATE the circus for what they do to animals too
post #6 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemae1277 View Post
Also, it's not the same as NASCAR or another sport that humans engage in by choice, they know the risks and can make a concious decision, animals cannot do that, they do what we want/tell them to do, hence my use of the term exploitation.
Hmmmm.......when I first read that, I thought, "good point," but then I considered that pulling a sled is what these dogs WANT to do; it's what they were bred for, what they were trained for, what they live for. Which to some degree, not completely, mitigates the point. No, the dogs don't choose to participate in the race, but given the choice, they'd really just as soon be out there pulling a sled. So I don't think it's really quite exploitation, even under katiemae's definition. A better example of exploitation is bull-fighting. I don't think you could ever find a bull who says they really want to be out there getting stuck by the matador.
post #7 of 41
My computer wont let me read the article but I dont think that dog sled competitions are all that bad. Like others said they were bred to do it and most love it. It is sad though when mishaps happen and they die. But if we are to say that these sports are wrong with animals and such then isnt it cruel to also have them as pets when they were once wild animals?
I have my own beef with horse racing but for different reasons than most. Most TBs after the track end in slaughter houses, they have weak bones or are more likely to get injured, have awful feet, are hot.(not all are like that but mine sure is! but it is what they are bred to do). I have mixed feelings on most sports with animals in them but i really cant say much because i compete in jumpers on Joe, but that horse is spoiled rotten!
post #8 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemae1277 View Post
this is a tough topic for me I do not like horse racing or dog racing and I do not like the rodeo for the reasons that the animals are exploited for human entertainment. This really isn't the same thing though IMO, this is what these dogs do but I still think it's awful that some have to die.

Also, it's not the same as NASCAR or another sport that humans engage in by choice, they know the risks and can make a concious decision, animals cannot do that, they do what we want/tell them to do, hence my use of the term exploitation.

I know every horse trainer and jockey or sled driver is different and many if not even most of them take excellent care of their animals, I just don't like the idea of animals being used for sport.

Oh, another thing, I HATE the circus for what they do to animals too
I completely agree with this! There is no doubt in my mind that the use of any animal for entertainment and/or self gain is exploitation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
No, the dogs don't choose to participate in the race, but given the choice, they'd really just as soon be out there pulling a sled. So I don't think it's really quite exploitation, even under katiemae's definition. A better example of exploitation is bull-fighting. I don't think you could ever find a bull who says they really want to be out there getting stuck by the matador.
You honestly believe that these dogs life fulfillment is to pull a sled because of their breeding? So breeding, raising, and controlling a life and their demise is ok as long as it is serving it's purpose........
post #9 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheylink View Post
So breeding, raising, and controlling a life and their demise is ok as long as it is serving it's purpose........
And cats? You have the same objections to pedigreed cats? How about cows? Pigs? Chickens? Mice and rats for medical experiments? Guide dogs? It seems to me if you apply it to sled dogs, then you need to be consistent. I suppose we'd all need to be vegetarians and not get our cancers and other illnesses treated with modern medicine, and hopefully never become blind or disabled.

"Breeding, raising, and controlling a life and its demise" IS the purpose of all domestic animals.
post #10 of 41
I'm going to be ridiculous and stick to the SPORT involvement with animals.

To assume any animal enjoys a human sport has got to be the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of. I'm sure bulls love being stabbed, horses love being almost run to death, rooster fighting, dog fights, rodeos ect ect and dog sled racing falls under this category also. It is a HUMAN that thinks this is fun, not the animal. Would an animal do this on it's own? NO, we do for our amusement only.
Riding horses, guide dogs, sled pulling for work is something entirely different. I can't understand that aspect of the debate.
Two completely different categories...
WORK - PLAY sled RACING = play

We certainly don't NEED to USE animals for our amusement!
I wonder how many animals a year actually die for our entertainment? How cruel!
post #11 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheylink View Post
You honestly believe that these dogs life fulfillment is to pull a sled because of their breeding? So breeding, raising, and controlling a life and their demise is ok as long as it is serving it's purpose........
You ever seen one of these dogs get put into the sled? They are ecstatic. They LOVE to pull. If they don't, they wouldn't be in the race at all.

Now, that doesn't mean they ought to do huge insane treks, but there's certainly only a few reasons to pull a sled nowadays...
post #12 of 41
Do people consider all working dogs to fall under the same category as being used for our amusement?

What about the herding breeds? They (at least the good dogs) show this drive from the time they are puppies. If you (general audience you) have never seen how a border collie behaves than obviously this example will be lost on you. And if anyone thinks farm work is safe, it's not, these dogs can and do get kicked/trampled/gored and even defend their herd against other dogs and coyotes.

What about police dogs? Or other dogs that hold similar jobs sniffing out drugs, bombs, and looking for lost and dead? I remember back 95' they had to make special shoes for the dogs because the concrete and glass was cutting up their feet.

You might as well throw dog shows into the same category as that's for our amusement too, even if most of the dogs do enjoy the attention.

coaster made a very good point. Like it or not dogs are domestic animals. We have controlled their breeding for so many years perfecting them to play certain roles such as herding and protection. It's ingrained into them, doing what they're bred to do keeps their minds stimulated. A bored dog is an unhappy dog and that truly is a greater cruelty.
As for the Iditarod, if the drivers don't respect and care for their dogs properly they can end up dead, too. I'm sure most of them know and never forget this.

Just to add - I have no problem with using dogs to do various types of work, provided that their owner or handler is out there with them. Ask nothing of your animals that you yourself would not do. A good example of this is the K-9 units out there risking their lives.
post #13 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by lil maggie View Post
Riding horses, guide dogs, sled pulling for work is something entirely different. I can't understand that aspect of the debate.
Two completely different categories...
WORK - PLAY sled RACING = play

We certainly don't NEED to USE animals for our amusement!
I wonder how many animals a year actually die for our entertainment? How cruel!

Do people consider all working dogs to fall under the same category as being used for our amusement?

O-M-G! Work=working animal ...PLAY= amusement for humans ie...dog sled RACING.
post #14 of 41
I agree with Forensic. I've never been in Alaska, so I'm not speaking from personal experience, but I've seen documentaries. Those sled dogs do enjoy what they do. They will run their hearts out. Literally. And die happy. What more could an animal want? To live forever in a kennel?

I think there's some excess anthropomorphizing going on in this thread. We can never know for sure what an animal really thinks. But we can get a general idea based on their behavior. Animals aren't stupid. If they don't like something, they'll run away.

It's our responsibility as humans to provide humane and responsible caretaking of our domestic animals. No, we shouldn't take advantage of them, of course. But we've bred them over thousands of years for specific purposes. Part of responsible caretaking includes using them for the purpose for which they've been bred. That's not taking advantage.
post #15 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
I agree with Forensic. I've never been in Alaska, so I'm not speaking from personal experience, but I've seen documentaries. Those sled dogs do enjoy what they do. They will run their hearts out. Literally. And die happy. What more could an animal want? To live forever in a kennel?
You all are serious too! These sled dogs are not family pets ... not the majority of them. All 8-10 of these BIG dogs don't spend their day indoors, on beds, playing with kids. What they know is: eat, sleep, sled. They are excited because they are so thrilled to have their masters pay attention to them. They are willing to do most anything for their masters approval. This is why they are excited to go sledding. This is all they are trained for. Yes, they will run their little hearts out for their masters and die happy ....... for their masters.

I'll repeat myself again: working animals are not being abused and are a wonderful contribution.
When we abuse animals because WE find a sport fun, not acceptable. Do people really think 'tied up under' rodeo horses enjoy that? Or bulls being stabbed love it? Or dogs fighting to the death are amused? WOW!
post #16 of 41
The Iditarod sled dogs aren't being abused, though. You can in no way put them in the same class as fighting dogs, rodeo horses, or bulls in the ring. Unless I misunderstood that last post. I couldn't tell if it was straight or sarcastic.
post #17 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
The Iditarod sled dogs aren't being abused, though. You can in no way put them in the same class as fighting dogs, rodeo horses, or bulls in the ring. Unless I misunderstood that last post. I couldn't tell if it was straight or sarcastic.
I try not to be sarcastic
You have been there throughout their training to race? I've seen documentaries and movies about it all, and they were nice But you really don't know that lots of these dogs are beaten, kicked and hit with whips during training? They don't show those parts. I'm not saying all do but lots are. I'm sure those dogs love the trophy they get and sleep with it outside.
post #18 of 41
And cat agility courses? Video

Seems that would be abuse under your "done for human enjoyment" definition?

I just don't think such sweeping definitions are appropriate. You have to judge each case on its own merits or demerits.
post #19 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
And cat agility courses? Video

Seems that would be abuse under your "done for human enjoyment" definition?

I just don't think such sweeping definitions are appropriate. You have to judge each case on its own merits or demerits.
I didn't see the cat being kicked or beaten and to me the cat looked like it was all playtime for it's own amusement.
But back to SLED RACING. It's ok for a dog or 2 to freeze to death for human sport?
post #20 of 41
No, it's not OK, but you can't condemn the whole sport for a couple of isolated incidents. As another poster noted, these dogs are well taken care of. Any sled driver who abused his/her dogs would earn the disapproval of the whole community.
post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
No, it's not OK, but you can't condemn the whole sport for a couple of isolated incidents. As another poster noted, these dogs are well taken care of. Any sled driver who abused his/her dogs would earn the disapproval of the whole community.
The word SPORT keeps coming up. Human sports. People can agree that involving animals for human sports is fine, others don't.

I am going to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
post #22 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
No, it's not OK, but you can't condemn the whole sport for a couple of isolated incidents. As another poster noted, these dogs are well taken care of. Any sled driver who abused his/her dogs would earn the disapproval of the whole community.
Unfortunately, that community isn't the "tree-hugging liberal" types, so that even a guy who was banned from racing for 2 years because of beating his dogs is now on the IRC ( I kept reading the comments on the different articles), so no, it's not necessarily true that the community would object.
However, the ranch dogs around here get a good beating every once in awhile, or a swift kick, and they seem to be okay. It's a different world, all right - I once was traumatized with nightmares for weeks after hearing the screams of a horse being tied up & gelded; it saved money on the vet bill, though. And I once came across a cow's skeleton with a calf's skeleton in her pelvis I don't think these people are deliberately mean - they just aren't as "civilized" as some of the rest of us. I've seen those same people working with broken bones, etc.; they seem to accept a harshness of life that God just didn't give me the heart to bear
post #23 of 41
The dogs that run the Iditarod are very well taken care of athletes. They have to be well taken care of to travel that far and that long. I don't think it's cruel or wrong. Yeah it sounds like the guy's judgement was bad of where to stay the night but he didn't know his dogs were going to die. Maybe the circumstances were really bad, maybe he got lost, who knows. The dogs were bred to do what they are doing. Half of those dogs are just mutts, bred from several lines of dogs that had the heart and atheletiscism to be sled dogs. I agree with someone else it was what they were bred to do. These dogs would NOT do well as apartment pets. They are high energy and to wear them out they have to do the job they were bred to do.

I am not against sled dog racing. I've seen interviews with people who use sled dogs, the dogs can't be unhandled pieces of crap, if they were they wouldn't run well together and wouldn't listen to the musher. It sucks that 6 dogs were lost, but they died doing the only thing they know and love. To me that is a better death than being 15 years old and having their bodies failing, only to have their lives drug out further by their owners who are too selfish to do the right thing.
post #24 of 41
"
Quote:
Breeding, raising, and controlling a life and its demise" IS the purpose of all domestic animals.
It is only the purpose because man has made it so, that does not make it right.
post #25 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by anita1216 View Post
It is only the purpose because man has made it so, that does not make it right.
Yet every single one of us that has a dog or cat has done so. To claim otherwise would be incredibly hypocritical. And if anyone tries to say they don't control when their pet dies, what about choosing to have a very sick (as in terminally) pet euthanized rather than let it suffer in pain - I suppose this is wrong too and it would be preferable to let them wander off to suffer and die as animals do in nature?


To make it clear on my view on the races, I don't see them as sport for the dogs so much as work. I don't know if they suddenly do things differently in Alaska but the sled dogs and kennels I had visited in Michigan (the state does have some sled races) were fine. The dogs weren't neglected or beaten.
Funny thing about huskies and similar breeds, even if given the option to come inside or sleep in a dog house, the crazy dogs will bed right down in the snow. Thick insulating fur or not, I never could understand that. My step grandmother's husky simply refused to stay in for long, the only time he would abide it was in the summer when the AC was on.
post #26 of 41


Quote:
Originally Posted by strange_wings View Post
Yet every single one of us that has a dog or cat has done so. To claim otherwise would be incredibly hypocritical..
Especially that part.

Quote:
It is only the purpose because man has made it so, that does not make it right.
So, if it's not right, I guess we can't have any domestic animals? I wonder if this poster believes in her words strongly enough to turn her cats loose in the wild. No? Then there must be some qualification, some instances in which it's not wrong.
post #27 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strange_wings View Post
Funny thing about huskies and similar breeds, even if given the option to come inside or sleep in a dog house, the crazy dogs will bed right down in the snow. Thick insulating fur or not, I never could understand that. My step grandmother's husky simply refused to stay in for long, the only time he would abide it was in the summer when the AC was on.
My RB Husky/GS mix, Tasha,was that way,too. However, if it was severely cold, she had the sense to come in out of the wind. I wonder if the Iditarod dogs had that option
post #28 of 41
They dig a hole in a snowbank and go in there. Snow is an excellent insulator.
post #29 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
And cats? You have the same objections to pedigreed cats? How about cows? Pigs? Chickens? Mice and rats for medical experiments? Guide dogs? It seems to me if you apply it to sled dogs, then you need to be consistent. I suppose we'd all need to be vegetarians and not get our cancers and other illnesses treated with modern medicine, and hopefully never become blind or disabled.

"Breeding, raising, and controlling a life and its demise" IS the purpose of all domestic animals.
Yeah! Actually I do completely disagree with breeding cats for pedigree and show! Yeah I am completely against animal testing. Guide dogs????? Yeah they may be trained to assist humans, wheres the danger?
So you really feel that the purpose of domestic animals is to serve, suffer, and die by your convenience??!!! Who made you god?
I feel that if I am honored to have the friendship and responsible of another life, horse, doggy, kitty, it is my responsibility to insure they are happy, safe, and healthy. I would never ask Maia to run through a dog pen, or drop chemicals in her eyes, or any life threatening situation.
For those who think..... "Breeding, raising, and controlling a life and its demise" IS the purpose of all domestic animals", I can only express remorse and concern.
post #30 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forensic View Post
You ever seen one of these dogs get put into the sled? They are ecstatic. They LOVE to pull. If they don't, they wouldn't be in the race at all.

Now, that doesn't mean they ought to do huge insane treks, but there's certainly only a few reasons to pull a sled nowadays...
I completely agree, they are doing something they love when sled pulling....but it is up to us to insure their safety and enjoyment while doing so. I think you know what I am saying.
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