Breeding for profit

kai bengals · Mar 17, 2009

I've noticed quite a few threads lately mentioning or at least touching upon the fact that if a profit is made, then the breeder is no good, doing it for the wrong reasons, a BYB, etc.

I personally don't see anything wrong with be able to stay in the black, if you're doing everything right, are ethical and have the very best in mind for the breed as a whole. I.E., breeding to the standard, improving upon the breed, keeping the public interested in the breed by showing and promoting, providing expert medical care, feeding and housing properly and giving the animals the love they deserve.

It's very hard work doing it right, so if there's a little money left over to pay the breeder back for their efforts, I think that's just fine and dandy. In any event, no one is going to get rich! Mininum wage at a fast food joint would pay much better.

wellingtoncats · Mar 17, 2009

I don't think there's anything wrong with being in the black either. I also don't think people should be selling pets for more then NZ$1,000 - but that's a personal opinion and because of the amount of Persian/Exotic breeders in NZ the prices for these guys are very low.

Heck pet shops here sell crosses for 4 x as much as we get for our kittens!

I'm lucky because I don't pay for rent/power/phone so whatever money I get from my kittens goes straight to my cat food/show fund

goldenkitty45 · Mar 17, 2009

Most breeders are lucky to break even. I guess when we are talking about "making a profit" - we are referring to LARGE profits. I have nothing against some profit. Large profits usually mean you are cutting corners, breeding too many or overcharging for poor quality pets.

I have my limit on how much I'd be willing to spend on a cat. Some breeders I know I could not afford, even if they are good ones. So I research for the best I CAN afford and go from there.

When its obvious that a pet quality kitten of poor quality has a price tag on it of a top show cat............then you know the breeder is only out to make money and really doesn't care who they sell to or about their cats.

mbjerkness · Mar 17, 2009

I am not a breeder. I have no interest in it. I think quality breeder should make a profit. I have issues with BYB breeding poor quality animals for profit. Unfortunately in my area their are a lot of puppy mills. I have also seen a few BYB of bengals . They are selling them for $1000 -$1500. IMHO this is wrong.

carolina · Mar 17, 2009

I posted something on those lines. But what I posted was about breeders of designer pets, such a rug huggers, or round face Persians (not sure if that's what they are called), only for profit, and completely outside of the standards. When I see a kitty on a website being sold for $4,500 that is completely outside of the standards, I don't see how that could be a reputable breeder. IMO a reputable breeder will not have only profit in mind.

anita1216 · Mar 17, 2009

I dont think that making a profit is a bad thing. What I often see with the good breeders is the amount of money they spend on quality care makes staying in the black almost impossible.

I would not want to be a breeder, but I do appreciate the time, love, effort and money that reputable breeders put into their animals. They make it possible for me to get wonderful new family members.

missymotus · Mar 17, 2009

Originally Posted by carolinalima

When I see a kitty on a website being sold for $4,500 that is completely outside of the standards, I don't see how that could be a reputable breeder.

I don't see anything wrong with a little profit either. Breeding done correctly is hard work.

laureen227 · Mar 17, 2009

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

I personally don't see anything wrong with be able to stay in the black, if you're doing everything right, are ethical and have the very best in mind for the breed as a whole. I.E., breeding to the standard, improving upon the breed, keeping the public interested in the breed by showing and promoting, providing expert medical care, feeding and housing properly and giving the animals the love they deserve.
In any event, no one is going to get rich! Minimum wage at a fast food joint would pay much better.

i would consider breeding to be a hobby. most hobbies require an outlay of money - very few bring money in at all. for example, i love to read - i have LOADS of books, which all cost me money. i don't expect to get a monetary return on them, tho.
similarly, another hobby i have is participating in my local community theatre. this often costs me some money [tights, shoes, gas, etc.] & costs me a great deal of time. i do it for enjoyment.
in many respects, breeding is similar. you do it for the love of the breed, the animals, the sense of accomplishment. staying in the black would be a bonus, not a requirement.

wellingtoncats · Mar 17, 2009

Originally Posted by laureen227

i would consider breeding to be a hobby. most hobbies require an outlay of money - very few bring money in at all. for example, i love to read - i have LOADS of books, which all cost me money. i don't expect to get a monetary return on them, tho.
similarly, another hobby i have is participating in my local community theatre. this often costs me some money [tights, shoes, gas, etc.] & costs me a great deal of time. i do it for enjoyment.
in many respects, breeding is similar. you do it for the love of the breed, the animals, the sense of accomplishment. staying in the black would be a bonus, not a requirement.

Nicely put, Laureen.

It's always the "new" breeds that are the ones getting more $$ for their cats. I think sometimes people play on a cat being "different" and then charge accordingly. Not directing this at you Nial but it does happen here.

kai bengals · Mar 17, 2009

Originally Posted by laureen227

i would consider breeding to be a hobby. most hobbies require an outlay of money - very few bring money in at all. for example, i love to read - i have LOADS of books, which all cost me money. i don't expect to get a monetary return on them, tho.
similarly, another hobby i have is participating in my local community theatre. this often costs me some money [tights, shoes, gas, etc.] & costs me a great deal of time. i do it for enjoyment.
in many respects, breeding is similar. you do it for the love of the breed, the animals, the sense of accomplishment. staying in the black would be a bonus, not a requirement.

Sorry, I can't agree with either of your analogies.

Reading requires no effort other than moving your eyes down the page. Sure you pay for the book and enjoy it. It ends there.

Your participation in theatre requires and outlay of money and effort in learning the performance, but if you were a professional in theatre, you would certainly be getting paid.

After 11 years of breeding, I would certainly deem myself a professional in this "hobby".

Staying the black may be a bonus, but it's well deserved for those of us who work as hard at this as my wife and I do.

Our first year in North Carolina (3.5 years ago) we spent $26,000 on breeding and brought in $13,000. Deep in the red I'd say.

laureen227 · Mar 17, 2009

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

Your participation in theatre requires and outlay of money and effort in learning the performance, but if you were a professional in theatre, you would certainly be getting paid.

After 11 years of breeding, I would certainly deem myself a professional in this "hobby".

well, altho i've been paid for vocal performances [not theatre] the time spent doesn't really equate to much of an hourly salary.
unless the breeding is your vocation, as opposed to your avocation [i.e. it's your primary income source] it would still be a hobby - perhaps a profitable one, to some extent, but a hobby nonetheless.
hobby definition:

hob⋅by 1. an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation: Her hobbies include stamp-collecting and woodcarving.

kai bengals · Mar 17, 2009

Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

It's always the "new" breeds that are the ones getting more $$ for their cats. I think sometimes people play on a cat being "different" and then charge accordingly. Not directing this at you Nial but it does happen here.

Well it's also what the market will bear. New breeds are often a scarcity and command a higher price because of demand.

Breeds such as the savannah are priced very high because of how difficult it is to produce large litters. The demand is high, but the output is low. This drives the price up. Buyers will outbid each other in an effort to purchase the cat of their dreams.

We charge more for our kittens than many other breeders, because we offer more. You truly do get what you pay for. Bengals are very popular right now and the demand is high, but there are many many breeders.
Our investment in our breed cats and kittens is high and the quality is there, so we get clients that are looking for that and a guarantee of health and support well after the sale is over.
So you know, you can find a "breeder" selling a bengal kitten for $200 or you can find one selling a kitten for $1500. More than likely the expensive kitten is the better, more beautiful, healthier well adjusted kitten with a health guarantee and a contract, but as with everything else it's.....caveat emptor.

kai bengals · Mar 17, 2009

Originally Posted by laureen227

well, altho i've been paid for vocal performances [not theatre] the time spent doesn't really equate to much of an hourly salary.
unless the breeding is your vocation, as opposed to your avocation [i.e. it's your primary income source] it would still be a hobby - perhaps a profitable one, to some extent, but a hobby nonetheless.
hobby definition:

Oh yes, I agree it's a hobby, but the definition of hobby doesn't preclude one from profitting from it in some way.

Even a part time job can be an avocation, because it's enjoyable and provides a little income.

goldenkitty45 · Mar 17, 2009

For the most part, the Oci breeders are about the same in pricing (within $100-200). These are reputable breeders. I know several of them with prices lower, but I would not even buy one of theirs as a pet!

sol · Mar 18, 2009

I'd say that the problem isn't that some breeders make a profit. Problems occur when people breed primarly to make a profit. When money becomes the goal there's a big risk that the welfare of the cats is put aside. They're not taken to the vet when needed just in order to keep down costs (which of course can lead to suffering), the cats are fed low quality food to keep down the costs, the cats are kept in small enclosures in order for the owner to be able to keep more cats and make more money etc.

If a breeder takes good care of the cats and makes money as a bonus, great. I don't see it happening in Sweden though due to our tough regulations on keeping and breeding animals and the high taxes. We pay almost 30% in taxes here and there's additional tax on 25% of the selling price if you sell cats (dogs, horses, furniture... whatever) for more than $3500 a year. Chances are that breeders in Sweden that claim they make money don't pay their taxes.

Willowy · Mar 22, 2009

I think that if someone can do it completely correctly and still make a profit, more power to them. If they cut corners in any way, than it's just wrong. The cats' well-being should come first.

I saw a website the other day, selling "Rug-Huggers" and "Pixie Persians" for $3000 each.....yeah. If I were going to pay that much for a cat (especially a common breed like a Persian---I do expect to pay more for exotic breeds) he would have to get a job to help pay the mortgage

.

goldenkitty45 · Mar 23, 2009

Those types are backyard breeders out to make money - they are not breeding to the standard. Its like the "designer dogs".

Breeding for profit

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