Feeding raw for dental health

carolina · Mar 15, 2009

I found out yesterday that Bugsy will eat raw!

I gave him some pieces of chicken breast, and he ate the whole thing...
I want to use this to see if I can make his teeth a little better. He is not even 2 years old, but has horrible teeth - I am pretty sure he needs a dental cleaning, as his gums are red on the edges, and he has bad breath. He is also missing a lot of teeth - I think it is genetic, since some of his teeth are so tiny, that are barely visible.
Anyways: here are some of my questions: Besides chicken necks, what other meats are the most beneficial for dental health? Also, does the piece size matter? Should I give whole pieces, or cut it in cubes?
Since he is a male, and doesn't like wet food, I want to give some raw everyday, in addition to his dry food - how much should I give him daily?
Last, but not least, how long can thawed meat/chicken be left in the fridge?
Thanks!!!

jack31 · Mar 15, 2009

This should probably be moved to the new raw feeding area.

But I'll do my best to answer your questions here and now.

1. Any meat in beneficial for dental health as long as the cat is having to chew. But of course meat with bones is even better. Some easy bones to start with are chicken ribs, necks and wings.

2. Ideally you want as big of a piece as you can offer to encourage them to chew and tear pieces off, but initially you probably don't want to offer a 3 oz piece. The pieces we offer right now are about the size of a quarter rounded if you will and the boys do a fair bit of chewing. But we will slowly increase the size as they get more confortable and their jaws get stronger.

3. Giving raw everyday with kibble can be a challenge. Mostly because a lot of cats prefer kibble to raw, or they love raw so much the walk away from kibble completely. Do you free fed dry? How much does he weigh and is your intent 50/50, 25/75? Honestly depending upon how much you offer daily factors into whether you just offer muscle meat and bone or whether you have to dive into organ meat as well.

4. I leave raw chicken (or any meat) in the fridge for no more than 3 days tops. But the way I do meal prep is I pre-bag meals, so I can pull out a days worth each day and only ever have one extra meal in the fridge at a time.

Leslie

sharky · Mar 15, 2009

Originally Posted by Jack31

This should probably be moved to the new raw feeding area.

But I'll do my best to answer your questions here and now.

1. Any meat in beneficial for dental health as long as the cat is having to chew. But of course meat with bones is even better. Some easy bones to start with are chicken ribs, necks and wings.

2. Ideally you want as big of a piece as you can offer to encourage them to chew and tear pieces off, but initially you probably don't want to offer a 3 oz piece. The pieces we offer right now are about the size of a quarter rounded if you will and the boys do a fair bit of chewing. But we will slowly increase the size as they get more confortable and their jaws get stronger.

3. Giving raw everyday with kibble can be a challenge. Mostly because a lot of cats prefer kibble to raw, or they love raw so much the walk away from kibble completely. Do you free fed dry? How much does he weigh and is your intent 50/50, 25/75? Honestly depending upon how much you offer daily factors into whether you just offer muscle meat and bone or whether you have to dive into organ meat as well.

4. I leave raw chicken (or any meat) in the fridge for no more than 3 days tops. But the way I do meal prep is I pre-bag meals, so I can pull out a days worth each day and only ever have one extra meal in the fridge at a time.

Leslie

well put...

Each is an individual ... I have two that like to play with thighs... NONE will do necks , nor have any I have had done necks ( yup they are a weird bunch

Kibble and Raw should be feed HOURS apart ... digestive rates are far different and you risk bacterial issues feeding them together

carolina · Mar 15, 2009

Originally Posted by Jack31

This should probably be moved to the new raw feeding area.

But I'll do my best to answer your questions here and now.

1. Any meat in beneficial for dental health as long as the cat is having to chew. But of course meat with bones is even better. Some easy bones to start with are chicken ribs, necks and wings. This week I will feed him breast so he gets used to it, then I will buy some of these you recommended.

2. Ideally you want as big of a piece as you can offer to encourage them to chew and tear pieces off, but initially you probably don't want to offer a 3 oz piece. The pieces we offer right now are about the size of a quarter rounded if you will and the boys do a fair bit of chewing. But we will slowly increase the size as they get more confortable and their jaws get stronger. I noticed he does better with the smaller parts - the bigger ones he doesn't really know how to tear them apart - he chews on it, and spit it off. I will increase it slowly.

3. Giving raw everyday with kibble can be a challenge. Mostly because a lot of cats prefer kibble to raw, or they love raw so much the walk away from kibble completely. Do you free fed dry? How much does he weigh and is your intent 50/50, 25/75? Honestly depending upon how much you offer daily factors into whether you just offer muscle meat and bone or whether you have to dive into organ meat as well. I free feed kibbles in the sense that they don't have a schedule - it is always available in their plates. However I feed the quantity that is recommended in the package (Orijen). He weighs 13 lbs, and is a 22 month old Ragdoll. He is not overweight, but I don't think he should gain weight either. I am thinking 25/75 - my goal is really for him to improve his teeth condition.

4. I leave raw chicken (or any meat) in the fridge for no more than 3 days tops. But the way I do meal prep is I pre-bag meals, so I can pull out a days worth each day and only ever have one extra meal in the fridge at a time. I will do the same

Leslie

Thanks Leslie!!!

carolina · Mar 15, 2009

Originally Posted by sharky

Kibble and Raw should be feed HOURS apart ... digestive rates are far different and you risk bacterial issues feeding them together

If this is the case, then I see no way to feed him any raw... I can feed him only at dinner time before he eats his kibble, and make sure he is full so he doesn't eat anymore for a while, but that's the best I can do, since Lucky is a finicky eater who eats a little at a time, and needs to have her food out all the time in order to get all she needs...

jack31 · Mar 15, 2009

Hmm...will Lucky have any of the raw?

When it comes to feeding kibble with raw you don't want raw to get stuck in the digestive tract behind kibble because the kibble will take longer to digest the raw will sit longer in the cats digestive tract which can put the cat at risk of problems from the raw meat.

Do you leave dry food out at night as well?

As a side note the amount to feed a day they say is 2-4% of the cats body weight so in the case of a 13 lb cat that would be about 4-8oz

My boys who weigh about 9.5 lbs eat about 3% of their body weight a day.

Leslie

carolina · Mar 15, 2009

Originally Posted by Jack31

Hmm...will Lucky have any of the raw? no, she doesn't like it at all... she doesn't like wet food either...

When it comes to feeding kibble with raw you don't want raw to get stuck in the digestive tract behind kibble because the kibble will take longer to digest the raw will sit longer in the cats digestive tract which can put the cat at risk of problems from the raw meat.

Do you leave dry food out at night as well? Yes, I do... when do you think it's best to feed him the raw, then? I can feed him and take away the plate for a couple of hours, then put it back for the night... Can he eat kibbles before the raw? say, an hour before?

As a side note the amount to feed a day they say is 2-4% of the cats body weight so in the case of a 13 lb cat that would be about 4-8oz I guess I will give him a couple of ounces of the raw and adjust the kibbles accordingly.

My boys who weigh about 9.5 lbs eat about 3% of their body weight a day.

Leslie

.................

sharky · Mar 15, 2009

an 8-12 lb cat on ave should eat 4-5 oz a day this is according to most calculators

carolina · Mar 15, 2009

Originally Posted by sharky

an 8-12 lb cat on ave should eat 4-5 oz a day this is according to most calculators

Sharky - this is if I was feeding him 100% raw, though, right? Or raw AND kibbles?
He is eating 2/3 cup of Orijen, which is the recommended amount - If i give him 2 oz of raw a day, can I give him 1/2 cup of kibbles? does that sound about right?

cjh27 · Mar 15, 2009

Hi,

how about feeding 100% raw as a sunday treat? That way you wouldn't have the kibbles + raw problem.

This would mean you'd have to feed Lucy seperate which might be possible at the week end (providing you don't work then)- and maybe she can be persuaded over time to join in on the raw feeding

Christine

sharky · Mar 15, 2009

Originally Posted by carolinalima

Sharky - this is if I was feeding him 100% raw, though, right? Or raw AND kibbles?
He is eating 2/3 cup of Orijen, which is the recommended amount - If i give him 2 oz of raw a day, can I give him 1/2 cup of kibbles? does that sound about right?

that is all raw ...

likely one oz raw with half cup

Originally Posted by cjh27

Hi,

how about feeding 100% raw as a sunday treat? That way you wouldn't have the kibbles + raw problem.

This would mean you'd have to feed Lucy seperate which might be possible at the week end (providing you don't work then)- and maybe she can be persuaded over time to join in on the raw feeding

Christine

Way cool idea there

jack31 · Mar 15, 2009

I really don't know who you'd do kibble with raw if you free feed. Anyone else have any thoughts? Sharky?

Leslie

carolina · Mar 15, 2009

Here is what I thought, and what I do tonight:
He seems to eat every couple of hours, or so. I let him eat kibbles at 7pm, and the next time he went to eat, I took his plate away, and fed him raw chicken. He was full from it - I took his dish away, and will put it back at 11 - so this way he will eat raw 2 hours after and two hours before eating any kibbles.
He doesn't eat from Lucky's dish - Lucky eats pure Orijen, while he likes his with Halo dinner party and missing link mixed into it. This actually works great, because I can manage exactly what each of them eat.
Will that work?

ms cat love · Mar 15, 2009

If your cat has red gums and bad breath... Feeding raw now wont change the existing dental issues.. Get to the vet ASAP and get a dental check up!!! Dont want to scare you, but i had a cat die from a bad tooth.. He went down hill in one week and when i did take him to the vet it was too late.. Infection had gone to the liver..

jack31 · Mar 15, 2009

This issue with that is that the dry is in his system first, its going to take 10-12 hours at least for that to digest, and two hours later you send raw into his system, this only needs 4-6 hours to digest but because the dry is in the system first the raw won't get out before the dry. Thus leaving the raw in the system longer than 4-6 hours which can cause an issue with bacteria etc.

The reason that cats can eat raw meat and not get sick is because they have a short digest tract, which means they digest their food quickly which basically minimalizing the opportunity for bacteria to do bad things.

I second the sunday all day deal. I think you may find that Lucky shows interest when the raw is around, especially if you try other protein sources. Does Lucky show interest in cooked meats?

Leslie

carolina · Mar 15, 2009

I am taking him to the vet tomorrow, but I am not going to get a dental until May, unless it is absolutely necessary. I checked his teeth and there is no brown stuff in it, but yes, his gums are red. I know it is not going to solve the problem, but feeding raw is going to help in keeping his teeth clean, which is my goal.
The reason why I am taking him to the vet tomorrow is because he is digging into his ears a bit too much, and I am afraid he has an infection.
I can only afford to have a dental when I get a job. If the vet says tomorrow that it is a matter of doing or seriously jeopardizing his health, then yes, I will do it. Otherwise it will need to wait.

katgoddess · Mar 15, 2009

I just wanted to bring up some interesting points I've read from a canine nutritionist in regards to cooked vs. raw digestion rates.

Quote:
It has been my experience that mixing the two is not a really good idea. Simply because the kibble takes much longer to digest (12-14 hours) as opposed to raw taking 4-6 hours.
--------------

Actually that is not true, just a much-perpetuated myth. It seems to go back to someone just taking bits and pieces from a study to prove their claims, instead of taking the entire picture into consideration.

Dr. David Twedt, DVM DACVIM, a respected gastroenterologist, states that studies have shown that the average gastric emptying time in dogs is about 8-10 hours, with some showing a wider range of 5-15 hours. These studies were performed on dogs eating kibble.

Think about it - does any raw fed dog you know go outside and poop every 4-5 hours? Mine certainly doesn't, and his potty habits don't change whether he eats kibble, cooked foods, or raw foods.

I'm very much for feeding raw and keeping a diet natural, but there are better reasons than incorrect claims.

Missdobermama, I'd be grateful for any material you could share with me that substantiates those claims, because neither in my research nor in my animal nutrition coursework I haven't found any.

Then there is also the fact that those 4-5 hours you claim would be gastric emptying time, which is the time it takes for the food to leave the stomach and move into the small intestine, not the time the food requires to travel from mouth to anus. That's impossible, since the digested food mass also spends quite some time in the colon, where water is reabsorbed.

Even raw fed dogs can throw up partially undigested food from their stomachs after 8-10 hours, and regurgitating occurs from the stomach, not from the intestines.

Further, you may observe your dogs defecating frequently, but that does not mean that if you feed at say 8 am, your dog will poop out all the food ingested at that time at noon or 1 pm. The same goes for you - Elimination is a continuous process, sort of like a conveyor belt. Try fasting a dog and see how long it takes before stools become significantly smaller because there's nothing in the intestinal tract anymore that needs to be processed.

Dogs have a shorter intestinal tract than humans, so numbers will differ, but for humans the following timeframes apply:

50% of stomach contents emptied: 2.5 to 3 hours
Total emptying of the stomach: 4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine: 2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon: 30 to 40 hours

So even if you take the low end of that and cut that in half, you'd still have a time frame of 19 hours "from mouth to anus" so to speak.

So no, the claim that raw food, or any food, is completely digested within 4-5 hours does not make any sense to me at all.

I'm not saying that individual dogs can't react badly to mixing kibble and raw, and that some can handle it while others can't, but I don't believe that it has anything to do with the two digesting at different rates. I would call it more of a predisposition of the individual dog to a sensitive stomach or something in the diet not agreeing with him/her. Eating patterns also play a large role.

I do not have any problem respecting someone's opinion, believe me, but here claims are brought up as facts that do not check out. A statement like "that flower is pretty" is an opinion, but "when your heart stops beating for too long, you die" is a fact. I like to keep the two separate.

If someone can present credible proof to me, such as for example studies monitoring the transit of barium-marked food through the digestive tract, I'll change my mind, but to this day nobody whom I have discussed this topic with (and believe me, I have on many internet forums and also in-person) has actually been able to produce such proof that is more compelling than Dr. Twedt's research..

I have presented numbers researched by him, which state that the average normal gastric emptying time is around 8-10 hours and anything over 10 hours is considered "delayed", or abnormal.

No doubt that there are many veets who don't agree with mixing kibble and raw food, but there are also an awful lot of vets out there who don't recommend feeding raw food or bones and will assure you that you are killing your dog if you feed anything but Brand X food. Now that is opinion that I can respect even if I do not agree.

Edited to add:

I forgot to say that going by your logic, the intestinal tract of a raw fed dog would have to be empty between the time he defecates and the next meal, and that just isn't the case, no matter which way you look at it.

The center of the debate in this thread still is the claim that raw food supposedly is completely digested within 4-5 hours, which is inaccurate.

I have done several tests myself, one of them included feeding chunks of raw carrots and green beans( the cell walls of which can not be broken down in a dog's digestive tract) for one morning meal, and they turned up in his poop in the afternoon of the next day, approximately 27 hours after he ate them - this means after ingesting two meals after the meal that included the carrots. The dog was raw fed that entire week, twice a day, pieces of chicken carcass, turkey necks and green tripe.

I encourage anyone to try it and guarantee you that you will not find bits of undigested vegetables just 4 or 5 hours later unless maybe your dog has severe diarrhea and the body is trying to void the contents of the intestinal tract as quickly as possible..

The rest of the discussion found here: http://www.ourdogsonline.com/ubbthre...p/topics/25399

jack31 · Mar 15, 2009

If his gums are just alittle red but teeth looking generally good, the raw should help eliminate the problem. Jack and Harley's teeth looks amazing. At least vet appt the vet said Harley's had a bit of tartar build up but Jack's were good. Their teeth are now white as ever and no stinky breath at all--its very refreshing for me since Harley is an ear lobe sucker--he gets pretty up close and personal to me!

Leslie

jack31 · Mar 15, 2009

But a feline isn't a canine?

Leslie

katgoddess · Mar 15, 2009

Originally Posted by Jack31

But a feline isn't a canine?

Leslie

Yes, I'm aware of that. But as far as I know, the claim that raw is digested in 4-6 hours while dry in 10-12 hours stands for both cats and dogs. I'm not arguing for either side, just pasting what I found interesting.

Feeding raw for dental health

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