Genettas, new breed?

Originally Posted by KittiesHasMe

Christine, by your criteria there would no Persians, no Exotics or Himalayans, no Sphynx, no Rexes, no Manx or any bob-tailed breeds. You could add Scottish Folds to this since breeders cannot breed two SF's with folded ears together as the desired phenotype is connected to a crippling genetic problem (osteochondrodysplasia).

Members on this forum with these breeds are going to be more than willing to defend their breed and explain why the world needs Persians, Sphynx, or Manx, etc. inspite of the 'problems'.

What to one person is a travesty and a horrible disfiguration is endearing and cute to someone else. This is why I find it hard to get worked up over Munchkins. There are numerous accepted breeds with genetic problems linked to the desired phenotype and people overlook these everyday. Domestic animals do not have to survive in the wild. They have humans to take care of them. (I know, I know, not everyone is a good pet owner.)

I do object to people breeding crippled cats like the 'Twisty Cat' that cannot have any kind of normal life. Personally, I think that 'breeder' needs to be thrown in jail for animal cruelty.

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Yes,

and I'm also aware that I'll meet lovers of these breeds in a cat fanciers forum.

I was just suprised that a bengalized munchkin would be seen as such a no go while other breeds are not regarded the same way.

Yes, most pedigree cats will hopefully lead a sheltered life indoors, but for me a cat is a cat, and taking away the attributes that make it a cat is in my eyes wrong.

Also- a lot can happen during a cats life time, it can escape or get abandoned by its owner, requiring it to fend on its own untill it is picked up.

Of course such a cat will not know how to hunt sufficiently and in many cases will barely be able to survive- but I like to think that it would still have a chance to fend for itself untill it is brought to a shelter.

Christine

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Good points Kitties. However, except for the Munchkins, all cats are very capable of running, jumping, leaping and acting like cats should. Even the Persians can do jumping in the air without problems if they choose to do so.

That's my objections to breeding the Munchkins. And it seems that you see a lot of Munchkins being bred to other breeds to creat long, short, curly hair, curly ears, etc....so something is wrong.

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Hi,

yes, a cat should be able to jump- but it should also be able to do everything else a normal moggie can do.

Take away the fur and the cat can't regulate its body heat normaly; breed a persian with fur that needs a lot of attention- and abandoned persian cats brought to the shelter are so full of matts that they can barely move and are sore under the matting, in need of a shave.

In my eyes there's not much point in weighing out which problem is worse- all are unnecessary.

Christine

Originally Posted by cjh27

with full hearing

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Is there are breed which doesn't have a full hearing?!

Some of the listed 'problems' aren't quite clear to me. Let's take a Manx for example. The breed is almost 300 years old and developed on it's own, they have very good balance so they don't really have any problems living a normal life without the tail.
American Curls have their ears curled backwards and Scottish Folds have folded ears, neither of these breeds have any ear problems because of that and they can have a normal life, indoors or outdoors. Their ears move normally, just like any other cats ears, so it doesn't even affect their communication abilities.

However, I have to agree that I don't accept the breeding of cats that can't live a normal cats life, which includes jumping and climbing etc. I also think that breeds shouldn't be made intentionally by mixing existing breeds together if it's done only to get as weird breed as possible.

The Ukrainian Levkoy is made by a woman who wanted to have the freakiest cat possible. First she sketched a picture(!) and then started to mix breeds to get what she wanted. Here is a picture:

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

Is there are breed which doesn't have a full hearing?!

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Hi,

sorry, I don't think I've explained this very well

Breeding white cats over the W gene can result in a high percentage of deaf kittens. This is not breed specific.

A responsible breeder will not breed two pure white cats with one another and will only breed with white cats who's hearing has been tested via an audiometric test to minimize the chances of getting deaf kitties in a litter.

If all precautions have been taken this is OK- but if they haven't its taking an unnecessary risk, possibly producing disabled cats.

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

Some of the listed 'problems' aren't quite clear to me. Let's take a Manx for example. The breed is almost 300 years old and developed on it's own, they have very good balance so they don't really have any problems living a normal life without the tail.

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A cat will also use its tail as a part of its body language to communicate with other cats. A scared cat or suprised cat will puff up its tail while a tail held high is used to greet another friendly cat. As far as I know the ideal manx show cat is a rumpy, with no tail at all.

If you drop a cat from a hight it will also use its tail to turn itself around, enabeling it to land on its paws. Personally believe that mother nature (and natural selection) had a reason why cats have tails.

Yes, the breed is 300 years old- but it developed on an island within a small population and with heavy inbreeding occuring. You can't breed two manx cats with each other because this would be semi- leathal and the kittens would naturally be aborted before birth. A responsible breeder wouldn't do this , but I'd take it as a hint from mother nature.

Manx cats will probably have adjusted themselves in regard to balancing, as would any cat who's lost its tail through an accident. But I still regard it as an unnecessary breeding goal as the cat itself has no advantages through the loss of a tail.


Christine

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

American Curls have their ears curled backwards and Scottish Folds have folded ears, neither of these breeds have any ear problems because of that and they can have a normal life, indoors or outdoors. Their ears move normally, just like any other cats ears, so it doesn't even affect their communication abilities.

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Hi,

I must admit that I don't know too much about the american curl, so I'll concentrate on the scottish fold.

Again I think a scottish fold will have difficulties with communication. A cats ear is extremely mobile, with 20+ muscles controlling them. A fearful or defensive cat will lower its ears, a sign that a dominant cat can read and understand- to other cats a scottish fold must appear defensive at all times, regardless if this is the case or not. If the cat is fearful but at the same time aggressive the ears flatten sideways and so on .....

http://www.messybeast.com/cat_talk2.htm

Scottish fold cats are breed to have their ears folded totally flat against the head.

This fold is due to changes in the ears cartilage structure. Unfortunatelly this can also affect the cartilage structure of the rest of the body, leading to scottish fold cats being very susceptable to a painful degenerative joint disease (arthritis), leading to lameness, reluctance to jump, a stiff stilted gait, short misshapen limbs, swelling of the feet and short thick inflexible tails.

As far as I've understood one in four kittens will develop mild to severe skeletal lesions if breeding fold cats to fold cats, leading to the above mentioned health issues for the affected cat. But also breeding fold to non-fold can result in these abnormalities- but with a much later onset and less severe.

http://www.pictures-of-cats.org/scottish-fold.html

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proce...1006&O=Generic

Christine

The Rexes I threw in because many have brittle whiskers or no whiskers. A cat uses it's whiskers as a sensory organ and some people feel that they are handicapped without them.

The Manx, the Scottish Fold and yes, the Munchkin all have 'lethal' genes linked to the desired phenotypes that cause crippling defects or the affected kittens die in utero.

So to perpetuate these breeds the breeders must be careful to breed the desired phenotype to a cat without the desired trait. In each litter there will be kittens with the desired breed phenotype and kittens with the 'normal' phenotype. The question here is how ethical is it to maintain breeds with known lethal genes. These cannot be bred out since the lethal gene is linked to the desired trait that makes the breed unique. For most people this is an outa sight outa mind type thing. Unless they happen to get a kitten with Manx syndrome or a Scottish Fold that developes crippling arthritis. Munchkin kittens that are homozygous for the shortleg gene die in utero.

That is why Manx and Scottish Fold were mentioned. If shortlegged cats are horrible what about accepted breeds with lethal genes?

Anyway, the Munchkins can jump, just not as high as a normal legged cat. The spinal problems that plague shortlegged dogs like the Dachshund do not seem to affect the Munchkins. A cat's spine is built differently than a dog's. They can climb and like most cats they will figure out a way to get to something they want. I doubt they even realize they are different. You can't miss what you've never had.

My main objection to the munchkinization of other breeds is that it passes on a trait linked to a lethal gene. For example, how on earth would a breeder get healthy kittens if a new breed had short legs, folded ears and was tailess. That's three different lethal genes to keep track of.

The Genetta is just the latest of the Munchkin based breeds - what about the Minskin (TICA), the Napoleon and Skookum? Oh, here's a good one for you, the Jagaurundi Curl - let's breed a domestic cat to look like a jagarundi.

To me, the registries need to draw the line at developing multiple breeds based on phenotypes carrying lethal genes. Or limit it to one per breed.

Northern Glow, there are some people who would consider the Urkrainian Levkoy to just be a really ugly Sphynx or poorly bred Devon Rex. I agree that just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done.

phenotype = what you see
genotype = what the cat carries genetically, the unseen good and bad.

... one last point. These breeds require a breeder who knows what he's doing and is aware of the genetic problems. Therefore you'd hope that manx x manx or scottish fold x scottish fold crosses won't occur.

The problems start when inexperienced people decide to breed one litter, unaware of the breeds genetic problems.

This happens a lot with pure white cats (the W gene) because the owners are not aware of the deafness issue, nor that their own cat is half deaf or even totally deaf.

Another example is the british short hair, a very popular breed here in Germany. Unfortunatelly cats of this breed are to 35% of the blood group B, something many people are not aware of. It's not uncommon that people buy a bsh and the suddenly decide to have just one litter, using a friends unaltered bsh or any unspayed tom that's available.

I'm by no way trying to say here that breeding bsh (or white cats) is unethical if done with care and knowledge, just that breeders should really watch out to whom they'll sell an unaltered cat.

Of course all breeding should lay in the hands of experienced people who've studied up on breeding issues- don't get me wrong there!


Christine

They do not look right to me and make me uncomfortable. How long until we see teens carrying them in their purse?
But then who I am to judge, I own and love a Sphynx. The Sphynx is healthy, happy, runs and plays like any normal cat with balance and grace. The main difference is the need for heat IMO and bath time.

I'm not going to quote because there is too much messages..

But for a correction, Scottish Folds do NOT have a 'lethal' gene. You can breed fold x fold without getting high number of miscarriages, but when you do that, almost 30% of the kittens may develop skeletal problems. When you breed fold x straight, the percentage is same than with any other breeds.
Scottish Folds can also lift their ears up. Many of them do that when they are having kittens, or when they are stressed etc.
Some associations have forbidden the 'fold x fold' breeding, so you can't register a litter from such pairing.

And obviously bloodgroups are tested before cats are bred together (and if not, atleast my cats had that info already in their registration papers [but I tested them anyway and they are all AAs]), and even if the mommy cat has B and father has A, the kittens will be fine if they are bottle fed for the first 16hours.

Northernglow, I stand corrected. Scottish Folds do not have a 'lethal' gene linked to the phenotype. However, that doesn't change the fact that you can't breed folded to folded without severe problems in some of the kittens.

There is a generic cat - the domestic shorthair/ longhair. It is found all around the world. In cats, the breeds developed because someone thought a mutation in the generic cat was interesting enough to perpetuate. There are no herding cats, or retriever cats, or cats that will pull a sled through snow. Cat breeds develope because someone likes a particular look. (A consistent temperament is also developed with each breed. A Persian should look a certain way and have a particular temperament.) However, most cat breeds are very new, with many being developed in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. The idea of 'shows' for dogs, cats, cattle, etc. started in the eighteen hundreds.

The point is that cat breeds are artificial populations maintained by humans for human reasons. Without humans the breeds would disappear back into the generic genepool. If the mutation does not cause life long pain and suffering or an early death do to physical anomolies it can be bred for and a new breed appears.

Most people will admit that the Munchkins do not seem to be in pain or discomfort and live happy lives.

I think any new breed where the phenotype is linked to a gene that causes death or severe abnormalities should stop there. It should not be used to develope new breeds and multiply the problem.

I think we're all going to have to agree to disagree on some or most of this.

Originally Posted by KittiesHasMe

Anyway, the Munchkins can jump, just not as high as a normal legged cat. The spinal problems that plague shortlegged dogs like the Dachshund do not seem to affect the Munchkins. A cat's spine is built differently than a dog's. They can climb and like most cats they will figure out a way to get to something they want. I doubt they even realize they are different. You can't miss what you've never had.

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... the cat might not miss being able to jump like a normal cat- but I'd know the difference and it would make me sad

Christine

Somewhat OT (sorry) but, I was wondering if those that object to the "munchkins" also object to short-legged dog breeds...i.e. dauschunds (sp?), corgis, etc.? Personally, I feel that the very short-legged / long-backed body type makes them prone to back problems which are, imo, more severe than a lack of jumping ability.

Just my 2 cents though...

Now, as to the bengal / munchkin crossing...I also think it is unwise to cross a very active breed with one that has the short-legged / long-back trait...if they are more prone to back issues (like dauschunds) their higher activity level would make them more likely to injure themselves.

Art

Originally Posted by artgecko

Somewhat OT (sorry) but, I was wondering if those that object to the "munchkins" also object to short-legged dog breeds...i.e. dauschunds (sp?), corgis, etc.? Personally, I feel that the very short-legged / long-backed body type makes them prone to back problems which are, imo, more severe than a lack of jumping ability.

Just my 2 cents though...

Now, as to the bengal / munchkin crossing...I also think it is unwise to cross a very active breed with one that has the short-legged / long-back trait...if they are more prone to back issues (like dauschunds) their higher activity level would make them more likely to injure themselves.

Art

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I don't know much about the other short-legged dogs but the Dachshund definately has health problems due to the relatively long back and short legs and that's sad. Once the Dachshund was exclusively used for hunting which naturally meant that digs with serious health issues weren't used for breeding. This minimized the health issues, but didn't eliminate them since the basic body structure is a problem. Point being, in the beginning there might have been a valid reason to breed and keep Dachshunds.

Nowadays many breed Dachshunds that aren't used for breeding and the health issues are increasing. Severe back problems (that sometimes need corrective surgery) and crooked legs are common health issues and of course this is a big problem and there's in my opinion no valid reasons to breed suchs dogs.

When used as a working dog, when the dog serves a "real" purpose and the health problems are kept on a minimum I can accept Dachshunds, but I don't approve of breeding them as pets only since that clearly isn't benificial to their health.

Originally Posted by cococat

They do not look right to me and make me uncomfortable. How long until we see teens carrying them in their purse?

But then who I am to judge, I own and love a Sphynx. The Sphynx is healthy, happy, runs and plays like any normal cat with balance and grace. The main difference is the need for heat IMO and bath time.

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I agree. I love my naked cats and cannot imagine not having these remarkable cats in my home.

http://www.bambinocats.com/
They also breed hairless short legged cats.

The thing that concerned me most about that breeder's website was that I could send $100 via paypal now from my computer and reserve a cat or fox. No discussion with the breeder at all to make sure that I could provide a good home or for me to ask about their breeding programme, health record, socialisation, vaccination, show record, etc. I could just send the money for the deposit now - like buying a pair of trainers online. That doesn't sit well with me at all.

Originally Posted by anita1216

I agree. I love my naked cats and cannot imagine not having these remarkable cats in my home.

http://www.bambinocats.com/
They also breed hairless short legged cats.

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Oh God - sorry, but the first thing that came to mind when I saw the picture of this bambino cat was "E.T. phone home..." Bless their hearts the poor things! What is wrong with these people and their need of being mad scientists with cats???

Originally Posted by carolinalima

Oh God - sorry, but the first thing that came to mind when I saw the picture of this bambino cat was "E.T. phone home..." Bless their hearts the poor things! What is wrong with these people and their need of being mad scientists with cats???

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Rather scary I thought, those poor things. Whats the point?

This is horrible A cat like that will have the agile cat instinct, especially if it's part Bengal, but will not have the body to be able to keep up with its mind.

I strongly disagree with breeding short legged cats, this is NOT at all in line with keeping normal cat behaviour.

Originally Posted by sarahp

This is horrible

A cat like that will have the agile cat instinct, especially if it's part Bengal, but will not have the body to be able to keep up with its mind.

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I'd never even considered this. Good point Sarah!

Originally Posted by sarahp

This is horrible

A cat like that will have the agile cat instinct, especially if it's part Bengal, but will not have the body to be able to keep up with its mind.

I strongly disagree with breeding short legged cats, this is NOT at all in line with keeping normal cat behaviour.

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Exactly Sarah!

With a munchkinized bengal, there certainly won't be any of this: