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Most religions in USA losing ground - Page 3

post #61 of 216
3/15/09 at 8:48am
In the first part of that quote, Twain says, "Man is a religious animal. He is the only religious animal." Curious, eh? In that, I think he was right. One has to wonder why man is a religious animal.
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post #62 of 216
3/15/09 at 1:59pm
[quote=coaster;2584572]In the first part of that quote, Twain says, "Man is a religious animal. He is the only religious animal." QUOTE]

We may well have all been better of without religion and maybe had the Flying Spaghetti Tenets instead.
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post #63 of 216
3/15/09 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
In the first part of that quote, Twain says, "Man is a religious animal. He is the only religious animal." Curious, eh? In that, I think he was right. One has to wonder why man is a religious animal.
My personal opinion is that humans are the only animals that we know of that are able to question past and future. We don't know what goes on in other animal's minds, and maybe some, like dolphins do wonder where we come from, where we're going, and why are we here, but so far no proof of that kind of reasoning. So, if human's wonder that, then religion comes into play. Man has had some belief of a "higher beinging" from the beginning of time, based on evidence. Man aways looks for answers while most other species live in the day and just enjoy what they have. Now, do I think one is better than the other? I don't know...
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post #64 of 216
3/15/09 at 3:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
In the first part of that quote, Twain says, "Man is a religious animal. He is the only religious animal." Curious, eh? In that, I think he was right. One has to wonder why man is a religious animal.
Actually, I don't see it as being curious at all. Man is a religious animal for several reasons, one being the inability to comprehend mortality. It's simply easier, more satisfying and far less scary to look to religion for immortality than to consider any alternatives.

Another reason is man's impatience. Instead of coming to grips with the fact that in our lifetimes, we won't find out where quasars come from, or what sparked life as we know it, or where the dark matter that is blasting out of our known universe is going, it is simply easier and more expedient to claim a God did it magically.

Quote:
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him" ~Voltaire~
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post #65 of 216
3/15/09 at 7:06pm
In spite of that well-known quote by Voltaire, he retained his belief in God -- he was a Deist -- his differences were mainly with the organized religion of the Catholic church.
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post #66 of 216
3/15/09 at 9:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
In spite of that well-known quote by Voltaire, he retained his belief in God -- he was a Deist -- his differences were mainly with the organized religion of the Catholic church.
In spite of? It seems obvious from that very quote actually. That's why I like Voltaire's work so much, he was a very, very rare sort of bird. He was a critical thinker even while having strong personal beliefs. They just don't make those anymore.
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post #67 of 216
3/15/09 at 9:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
They just don't make those anymore.
Oh, so you DO believe in a Creator!!! Why, Mike, I'm pleasantly shocked!!
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post #68 of 216
3/15/09 at 10:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
We may well have all been better of without religion and maybe had the Flying Spaghetti Tenets instead.
personally, i would still consider that a religion, of sorts.
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post #69 of 216
3/15/09 at 10:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Oh, so you DO believe in a Creator!!! Why, Mike, I'm pleasantly shocked!!
Well yes, I thought that I'd said it before. I just have trouble putting a label on what I think. Deism is probably the closest, but then, Deism's basis is pretty much just, "A Deity created the Universe", and that the existence of any God or Gods can only be surmised through reason. No giant turtles, no pasta dishes, no yellow wooden drums, no magic gardens or talking snakes. Just, created and moved on, possibly continuing to create elsewhere. At least I hope so.
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post #70 of 216
3/15/09 at 11:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by laureen227 View Post
personally, i would still consider that a religion, of sorts.
I agree! There is even a gospel of the FSM.

The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
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post #71 of 216
3/16/09 at 10:22am
You know, I was ready to dismiss that book as a joke, so I looked it up on Amazon, started reading the first page, and the author captivated me. Allow me to make a short quote (in accordance with U.S. Copyright Fair Use privileges)
Quote:
There's a dirty little secret that the scientific establishment has been trying to keep under wraps for years. There are many unproven theories that are being taught to people as if they were established fact. ... Consider the theory of Evolution. To their credit, Intelligent Design advocates have successfully argued that their alternative theory deserves as much attention as Evolution, since neither can be considered fact. ... It seems strange that Evolution is singled out as "just a theory" when there are so many basic ideas in science that remain unproven, yet are still taught as fact. The objections to Evolution have only illustrated this point further: Alternative theories must be taught in order to give our young students' minds a broad foundation.
attribution: Bobby Henderson, The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Villard, 2006

He then goes on to tongue-in-cheek trash both Evolution and ID and posit the Flying Spaghetti Monster as an alternative theory, and with arguments about as valid as the other two. Looks like an interesting book, with some interesting ways of looking at things, and I can't argue with his opening remarks.
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post #72 of 216
3/16/09 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Actually, I don't see it as being curious at all. Man is a religious animal for several reasons, one being the inability to comprehend mortality. It's simply easier, more satisfying and far less scary to look to religion for immortality than to consider any alternatives.

Another reason is man's impatience. Instead of coming to grips with the fact that in our lifetimes, we won't find out where quasars come from, or what sparked life as we know it, or where the dark matter that is blasting out of our known universe is going, it is simply easier and more expedient to claim a God did it magically.
I don't look to "religion" for immortality, never have. I have a Redeemer who promises salvation. That is all I need. There is no alternative for me.


All my questions will be answered someday. And God did create this universe and us supernatuarally.
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post #73 of 216
3/16/09 at 4:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
.... It's simply easier, more satisfying and far less scary to look to religion for immortality than to consider any alternatives.
Just curious as to what you think the alternatives are; I didn't catch the plural until after Cindy's post.

Quote:
Instead of coming to grips with the fact that in our lifetimes, we won't find out where quasars come from, or what sparked life as we know it, or where the dark matter that is blasting out of our known universe is going, it is simply easier and more expedient to claim a God did it magically.
We don't need to know any more than a cat needs to know algebra or physics. The created is always inferior to the creator. The creator tells the created only as much as is needed to be known. All the cat needs to know is where the next meal is coming from. The cat doesn't have any use for algebra. And I don't have any use for a quasar.

That doesn't mean I'm not curious about it. Maybe I'll find out some day. Maybe all my questions will be answered some day. On the other hand, when that day comes, maybe all those questions will be rendered so totally irrelevant that I won't even remember them.
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post #74 of 216
3/16/09 at 5:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't look to "religion" for immortality, never have. I have a Redeemer who promises salvation. That is all I need. There is no alternative for me.
Well, actually, if salvation involves a conscious existence beyond this one, then it IS immortality. But if using a different word to describe it works for you, then I'm fine with it.
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post #75 of 216
3/16/09 at 5:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Just curious as to what you think the alternatives are; I didn't catch the plural until after Cindy's post.
One of the more interesting statements I've ever seen was comparing the human brain to the RAM memory in a computer. All the experience, experiences and past events stored safely, all the while the computer is running. But, once the power is shut off, everything therein simply isn't anymore. And if the human consciousness is a form of energy, then the possibilities are incredible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
We don't need to know any more than a cat needs to know algebra or physics. The created is always inferior to the creator. The creator tells the created only as much as is needed to be known. All the cat needs to know is where the next meal is coming from. The cat doesn't have any use for algebra. And I don't have any use for a quasar.

That doesn't mean I'm not curious about it. Maybe I'll find out some day. Maybe all my questions will be answered some day. On the other hand, when that day comes, maybe all those questions will be rendered so totally irrelevant that I won't even remember them.
I can understand this point of view. After all, the more mankind discovers, and the more "dark places" that are cast open and understood, the less places their Gods have to hide. So, giving little importance to discovery is just a defensive measure to protect their Gods.
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post #76 of 216
3/16/09 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Well, actually, if salvation involves a conscious existence beyond this one, then it IS immortality. But if using a different word to describe it works for you, then I'm fine with it.
i think what Cindy meant is that religion isn't what gives immortality or salvation - it's the belief in & acceptance of the Person, not the rites, rituals or habits man has created to honor Him.
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post #77 of 216
3/16/09 at 7:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
After all, the more mankind discovers, and the more "dark places" that are cast open and understood, the less places their Gods have to hide. So, giving little importance to discovery is just a defensive measure to protect their Gods.
Funny how I come up with exactly the opposite viewpoint: the more science and mankind discover about the universe, the more "dark places" (as you say) are cast open, the more it proves that there is God. (no, leaving out the article wasn't a typo)

Incidentally, that's how I concluded that God exists - by considering what we know about the universe.
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post #78 of 216
3/16/09 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
On the other hand, when that day comes, maybe all those questions will be rendered so totally irrelevant that I won't even remember them.
That is exactly what I think too Tim.
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post #79 of 216
3/16/09 at 7:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Well, actually, if salvation involves a conscious existence beyond this one, then it IS immortality. But if using a different word to describe it works for you, then I'm fine with it.
Of course salvation involves a "conscious existence beyond this one".

But salvation doesn't come from "religion" Mike, it comes from Jesus and the Grace of God.
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post #80 of 216
3/16/09 at 7:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by laureen227 View Post
i think what Cindy meant is that religion isn't what gives immortality or salvation - it's the belief in & acceptance of the Person, not the rites, rituals or habits man has created to honor Him.

Thank you, that is exactly what I meant.
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post #81 of 216
3/16/09 at 7:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
But, once the power is shut off, everything therein simply isn't anymore. And if the human consciousness is a form of energy, then the possibilities are incredible.
But Mike, this doesn't follow. If human consciousness simply isn't any more, what are the possibilities you see? It sounds rather sad to me, not incredible.
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post #82 of 216
3/16/09 at 7:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Funny how I come up with exactly the opposite viewpoint: the more science and mankind discover about the universe, the more "dark places" (as you say) are cast open, the more it proves that there is God. (no, leaving out the article wasn't a typo)

Incidentally, that's how I concluded that God exists - by considering what we know about the universe.
That is exactly what I mean. Coming to a conclusion considering what we know about the Universe. Establishing a viewpoint on incomplete information. That's just like the writers of religious texts over the centuries, simply leaving "undiscovered" or declaring "non-canon" any related texts that didn't comply to their way of thinking.

A conclusion based on partial knowledge is premature at best, reckless at worst. Recent discoveries have demonstrated just how little we know of the Universe. I posted the article concerning the very recent discovery of Dark Flow leaving the known Universe in another thread, but it seemed to be ignored.
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post #83 of 216
3/16/09 at 7:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
But Mike, this doesn't follow. If human consciousness simply isn't any more, what are the possibilities you see? It sounds rather sad to me, not incredible.
They aren't meant to follow Two different alternatives typed in the same paragraph.

And it does sound rather sad. Which is exactly why people would invent a God if they thought there wasn't one. To delude themselves with "happy thoughts".
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post #84 of 216
3/16/09 at 7:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Thank you, that is exactly what I meant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Of course salvation involves a "conscious existence beyond this one".

But salvation doesn't come from "religion" Mike, it comes from Jesus and the Grace of God.


I understand, but that is more switching between religion and faith again. Is constantly changing the subject from religion to faith and back again a debating tactic?
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post #85 of 216
3/16/09 at 8:00pm
If that is how you want to look at it Skippy, that is okay.

Faith and religion aren't the same thing to me. I know what is true, I know all I need to know, the mystery of my faith, Christ has died, Christ is Risen and Christ will come again.
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post #86 of 216
3/16/09 at 8:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
If that is how you want to look at it Skippy, that is okay.

Faith and religion aren't the same thing to me. I know what is true, I know all I need to know, the mystery of my faith, Christ has died, Christ is Risen and Christ will come again.
I realize the two aren't the same. That's why it confuses me that people reply to a post referring to religion with a response based in faith, and vice versa.
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post #87 of 216
3/16/09 at 8:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Establishing a viewpoint on incomplete information. ...A conclusion based on partial knowledge is premature at best, reckless at worst. ...
But Mike, that's LIFE. We NEVER have all the possible information prior to making a decision. If we waited until all the information is in, we'd NEVER make a decision, never come to a conclusion, never ACT. That's just the nature of decision-making. There's always new information that comes in after the decision. In my case, all the new information that's come in has only served to reinforce my conclusion, to affirm my decision. I'd say I made the correct decision and came to the correct conclusion. That's been my experience.
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post #88 of 216
3/16/09 at 11:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
But Mike, that's LIFE. We NEVER have all the possible information prior to making a decision. If we waited until all the information is in, we'd NEVER make a decision, never come to a conclusion, never ACT. That's just the nature of decision-making. There's always new information that comes in after the decision. In my case, all the new information that's come in has only served to reinforce my conclusion, to affirm my decision. I'd say I made the correct decision and came to the correct conclusion. That's been my experience.
Actually, it's just the difference between theory and fact. And theories can be acted upon, even while we are actively trying to prove (or disprove) them. A conclusion is finality, the irrefutable answer to the question. There isn't a religion in existence that makes it past being a theory.

And if we do not seek any new information because, just like the mathematically challenged cat, we "don't need to know", then we don't have to run the risk of ever questioning those conclusions, and can make ourselves feel quite secure thinking that we "know" something.
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post #89 of 216
3/17/09 at 7:31am
I have no problem with seeking new information, nor do I have any fear of it. What I'm saying is that there's some information that's unknowable -- we're never going to find those answers. Those are the answers we don't need to know. Someone who waits to decide because they don't have those answers will never decide. And not deciding IS a decision.
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post #90 of 216
3/17/09 at 2:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
I have no problem with seeking new information, nor do I have any fear of it. What I'm saying is that there's some information that's unknowable -- we're never going to find those answers. Those are the answers we don't need to know. Someone who waits to decide because they don't have those answers will never decide. And not deciding IS a decision.
That sounds to me to be either defeatist or complacent. The only thing that is unknowable is just how much of the unknown is unknowable. As technology advances, more and more of what was "unknowable" becomes known. It was once rumored that Napoleon chided Futlon (who invented the steam boat) that lighting a bonfire beneath the decks of a ship to propel it against wind and tide was nonsense. It was said that Everest was unclimbable. It was said that anyone who challenged the sound barrier would die. Throughout history mankind has exceeded it's own self imposed limitations, limitations imposed by people who saw knowledge as a threat to what they believed, or to their status or positons.

If God is even aware of humanity's existence, we are very likely engaged in the greatest game of hide and seek the Universe has ever known. He/She/It could very well be watching, waiting, and have a bottle chilling for the first humans to finally get there. And if we accept "unknowable" and "undecided" as answers, then we will be quite the disappointment, wouldn't we.
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