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Most religions in USA losing ground

post #1 of 216
Thread Starter 
I had posted this link in another thread, but then it occurred to me that this is a subject that could probably hold it's own.

I find it interesting that when you break things down by denomination (which is ok because apparently they don't agree on much anyway), that "None" is holding 3rd place at 15%, or 34.2 million people, and there are twice as many Pagans as Muslims in the US .

Most religious groups in USA have lost ground
post #2 of 216
I'll add this: U.S. Religious Landscape Survey
Summary of Key Findings
Quote:
More than one-quarter of American adults (28%) have left the faith in which they were raised in favor of another religion - or no religion at all. If change in affiliation from one type of Protestantism to another is included, 44% of adults have either switched religious affiliation, moved from being unaffiliated with any religion to being affiliated with a particular faith, or dropped any connection to a specific religious tradition altogether.

The survey finds that the number of people who say they are unaffiliated with any particular faith today (16.1%) is more than double the number who say they were not affiliated with any particular religion as children. Among Americans ages 18-29, one-in-four say they are not currently affiliated with any particular religion.
post #3 of 216
I think that Mike uses the correct word here: denomination

The survey is correct in that people are leaving their denominations. I don't think that leads to the conclusion that they're leaving religion. The increase in non-denominational churches is the mirror of the decline in the denominationally-affiliated churches.

Keep in mind that each Christian denomination isn't a separate religion. Nor is being religious to be equated with having a particular belief set. I think the terminology needs to be clarified before any kind of an intelligent discussion can be had on a topic like this.

I suggest the religions are:

Christianity
Islam
Judaism
Hinduism
Buddhism

I think those are the major ones; add more if you want.

Under the Christian religion you can put:

Catholic
Lutheran
Orthodox
Protestant
......
and so forth.

Get my drift? Clarify the terms before having the discussion.
post #4 of 216
The 28% number leaving the church is not a signficant number, since it doesn't say how many are joing the church.

And some churches membership has been increasing. A real comparison is the per capita membership, compared over time.
post #5 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
The survey is correct in that people are leaving their denominations. I don't think that leads to the conclusion that they're leaving religion.

Although coaster probably meant this in a different way, I think religion is unlikely to ever go away...It just changes its face, not only by people leaving denotations but also by creating new types of religion. Paganism counts as religion.
post #6 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Paganism counts as religion.
Would paganism be the same as Wicca? Or two separate?
post #7 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post

Although coaster probably meant this in a different way, I think religion is unlikely to ever go away...It just changes its face, not only by people leaving denotations but also by creating new types of religion. Paganism counts as religion.
Who do Pagans worship?
post #8 of 216
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
I think that Mike uses the correct word here: denomination

The survey is correct in that people are leaving their denominations. I don't think that leads to the conclusion that they're leaving religion. The increase in non-denominational churches is the mirror of the decline in the denominationally-affiliated churches.

Keep in mind that each Christian denomination isn't a separate religion. Nor is being religious to be equated with having a particular belief set. I think the terminology needs to be clarified before any kind of an intelligent discussion can be had on a topic like this.

I suggest the religions are:

Christianity
Islam
Judaism
Hinduism
Buddhism

I think those are the major ones; add more if you want.

Under the Christian religion you can put:

Catholic
Lutheran
Orthodox
Protestant
......
and so forth.

Get my drift? Clarify the terms before having the discussion.
I think the article clarifies them quite well. The thread that this link was posted in to begin with shows the disagreements and difference in doctrine between denominations. More than enough to look upon them separately.
post #9 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Would paganism be the same as Wicca? Or two separate?
Paganism is a blanket term for a wide variety of religions. Wicca is a new(ish) pagan religion, but certainly not the only flavor here in the US.
post #10 of 216
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Who do Pagans worship?
Which ones?
post #11 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Who do Pagans worship?
In the broad sense, paganism refers to polytheistic religions and is often used to refer to pre-Christian religions. Most of the ancient religions fall under this category. Greek and Roman religion are good examples but there were some civilizations that worshiped a single god. Some bounced back and forth between polytheism and monotheism depending on the whims of the ruler.

Ironically, the Greek philosophers had a lot to with the spread of Christianity. They questioned and broke down the existing religions which allowed Christianity to fill a large part of the void. The Greek philosophers were also embraced by the Muslims as Islam spread.

Even though they aren't considered pagan religions you can still find followers of Zoroastrianism and Mithraism today.

I want to make clear that I wasn't trying to go off-topic, I just wanted to try and give a detailed explanation. I can add to it if needed but I have to leave for school now.
post #12 of 216
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post

Although coaster probably meant this in a different way, I think religion is unlikely to ever go away...It just changes its face, not only by people leaving denotations but also by creating new types of religion. Paganism counts as religion.
I completely agree that it'll never go away. Too many people need it too badly. I also agree with you that a lot of that "none" percentage are probably people that have not quit religion, but have taken up or created something not yet categorized. There seem to be more and more people these days that think major religions are losing their original focus through centuries of "fine tuning", and there are others yet that think certain ones aren't doing enough to keep up.
post #13 of 216
And maybe The Great Apostasy is here.
post #14 of 216
if anyone actually took the time to read the article
Quote:
So many Americans claim no religion at all (15%, up from 8% in 1990), that this category now outranks every other major U.S. religious group except Catholics and Baptists. In a nation that has long been mostly Christian, "the challenge to Christianity … does not come from other religions but from a rejection of all forms of organized religion," the report concludes.
it states right there (my bold) that the 15% Mike referred to are not choosing no denomination, they are claiming no religion. Is that clarified enough?

ETA: This is a topic near and dear to me since I am an atheist and while I am not really a "closet" atheist, I don't tell everyone and their brother, mostly because I tend to feel judged when I tell people I am an atheist. 15% gives me a little more back-up
post #15 of 216
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
And maybe The Great Apostasy is here.
Which version of it? That seems to be yet another subject on which almost none of the denominations agree.

Well at least we know it's not the Mormon's "Great Apostasy"...theirs is already over.
post #16 of 216
Paganism encompasses many religions as some people already mentioned... There is a theory that paganism isn't as popular now because our society has changed so much . As we have moved from tribal organization of society, first towards feudalism and monarchy and now towards bureaucratic sort of government, so has religion stood some parallel changes such as from paganism towards monotheistic religion with all sort of bureaucratic arrangements of the deities themselves- for example Christianity has god and then Jesus and then all kinds of angels/saints, kind of mirrors our form of government. So going along with this theory, it's inevitable that religions are about to change.
Looking at myself, I claim no religion, so I guess I fall in to those 15% and sometimes I refer to myself as atheist, however when I really think about it, I can't say that I don't believe in any kind of power...A lot of times I will pray to the christian god, and sometimes even go to church, but I disagree with 80% of the things my church (eastern orthodox) teaches...I do agree and like some of the teaching of the christian bible, however only if I can put my own interpretations..
This doesn't count as religion though, religion is supposed to be organized and a community is supposed to exist, that's part of what religion strives to do, is to reinforce society's common beliefs and reinforce society itself, that people aren't all that self interested after all and can cooperate with each other just based on trust and solidarity, not solely because of benefits that can be achieved by cooperation..Technically this kind of reinforcement isn't possible if one doesn't participate in a church or group type of worship, no matter how faithful or spiritual one is. I know people might try to argue that it's possible, maybe through online communities or through family worship I dunno I'm just stating some theories i've heard or studied...
So therefore, I think it's very likely that churches are going to change either gradually or sporadically....we just have yet to see (or not if it doesn't happen in our lifetime)

ETA: wow sorry if i made no sense, it seems like what i wrote is kind of all over the place but i don't have time to try to organize what i'm trying to say or even see if it's coherent.
post #17 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemae1277 View Post
Quote:
So many Americans claim no religion at all (15%, up from 8% in 1990), that this category now outranks every other major U.S. religious group except Catholics and Baptists. In a nation that has long been mostly Christian,
See this is what I meant about defining terms. The article in Mike's link breaks out the percentages as various Christian denominations and traditions. They aren't different religions. So when you add all the Christian churches together, it comes to about 75%. I would say that 75% is still "mostly Christian"

(not picking on you katiemae, you just had a handy quote)
post #18 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
ETA: wow sorry if i made no sense, it seems like what i wrote is kind of all over the place but i don't have time to try to organize what i'm trying to say or even see if it's coherent.
It made perfect sense to me, and my reaction was, "now here's someone who understands the difference between religion and faith" a point I've tried to make numerous times with little effect. And not only that, but your explanation of what religion is was right on target. Thank you!!
post #19 of 216
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
See this is what I meant about defining terms. The article in Mike's link breaks out the percentages as various Christian denominations and traditions. They aren't different religions. So when you add all the Christian churches together, it comes to about 75%. I would say that 75% is still "mostly Christian"

(not picking on you katiemae, you just had a handy quote)
Which brings us full circle of the "Christian Inconsistency". Bickering, infighting (check out Northern Ireland right now), denouncing other denomination's doctrines as downright wrong...yet when you need their numbers to bolster a talking point, there they are, right back in the fold again.
post #20 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Which version of it? That seems to be yet another subject on which almost none of the denominations agree.
The one prophesied by Jesus. (Matthew 24; same echoed in Luke) Who knows? There've been cycles and "falling away" and coming back throughout the history of the Christian religion. Every falling away has been followed by a "great awakening" as some researchers call it: a return to the Christian religion. It can't be disputed that right now we're in a cycle of falling away. Whether this one is the one prophesied by Jesus or whether this one is just another of those cycles, I don't know. Nobody knows. And if it's the last one? The real one?
post #21 of 216
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
It made perfect sense to me, and my reaction was, "now here's someone who understands the difference between religion and faith" a point I've tried to make numerous times with little effect. And not only that, but your explanation of what religion is was right on target. Thank you!!
Actually, the difference between faith and religion is quite easy to see. Very nearly everyone on the planet has some faith, in something. But we are not talking about faith here, we are talking about religions.
post #22 of 216
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
The one prophesied by Jesus. (Matthew 24; same echoed in Luke) Who knows? There've been cycles and "falling away" and coming back throughout the history of the Christian religion. Every falling away has been followed by a "great awakening" as some researchers call it: a return to the Christian religion. It can't be disputed that right now we're in a cycle of falling away. Whether this one is the one prophesied by Jesus or whether this one is just another of those cycles, I don't know. Nobody knows. And if it's the last one? The real one?
According to the Mormons, the one prophesied by Jesus has already occurred, beginning shortly after his death and lasting all the way up until the visions of Joseph Smith.
post #23 of 216
Perhaps it is because I don't count myself as a Christian (though I was raised Lutheran), but I don't see Religion as a community but rather as a structure for one's spirituality. I suppose that reflects that I am a sole-practitioner pagan. I use the structure, and I am a spiritual person, but I don't feel I need the approval of other people, or to be seen at Church to prove my own spirituality. I think that is what this quote from the article means as well:

"the challenge to Christianity … does not come from other religions but from a rejection of all forms of organized religion," the report concludes.

It isn't necessarily the beliefs or structure that is being rejected, but the organizations and hierarchy. We hear so many scandals coming from the higher ups in the Church, as well as corporations, politics, etc. It's no wonder that people say, "I will worship in my own way. God is God, the Bible is from God, but the Church is a Man-Made structure and therefore it is fallible." (I've heard quite a few people make that argument through the years, maybe not word for word, but definitely in essence.) These people remain Christian, but not affiliated with any denomination or Church, per se.
post #24 of 216
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
Perhaps it is because I don't count myself as a Christian (though I was raised Lutheran), but I don't see Religion as a community but rather as a structure for one's spirituality. I suppose that reflects that I am a sole-practitioner pagan. I use the structure, and I am a spiritual person, but I don't feel I need the approval of other people, or to be seen at Church to prove my own spirituality. I think that is what this quote from the article means as well:

"the challenge to Christianity … does not come from other religions but from a rejection of all forms of organized religion," the report concludes.

It isn't necessarily the beliefs or structure that is being rejected, but the organizations and hierarchy. We hear so many scandals coming from the higher ups in the Church, as well as corporations, politics, etc. It's no wonder that people say, "I will worship in my own way. God is God, the Bible is from God, but the Church is a Man-Made structure and therefore it is fallible." (I've heard quite a few people make that argument through the years, maybe not word for word, but definitely in essence.) These people remain Christian, but not affiliated with any denomination or Church, per se.
Very wonderfully stated. As for the report's "conclusion", that just falls under the writer's opinion.

I'd also like to point out that Bryan is indeed right. Even some of the Pagan faiths are monotheists, with a single God or Deity. But not really something that can be called a him, or a her, or even a thing...more like "the Everything".

Myself, I've called my beliefs by several titles, none seem to really fit. I think that there is an order to things, emitting from something, or Everything. But that Everything is far, far beyond us, has never talked to us. Our Universe may in fact be, to the Everything, the same as the life in a drop of river water is to us.
post #25 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
The one prophesied by Jesus. (Matthew 24; same echoed in Luke) Who knows? There've been cycles and "falling away" and coming back throughout the history of the Christian religion. Every falling away has been followed by a "great awakening" as some researchers call it: a return to the Christian religion. It can't be disputed that right now we're in a cycle of falling away. Whether this one is the one prophesied by Jesus or whether this one is just another of those cycles, I don't know. Nobody knows. And if it's the last one? The real one?
That's assuming everyone believes in Jesus.

I would also wager that a lot of folks that say they are atheists will pray to God (whichever one they were raised with as children or believed in at some point in their adult life) when their lives are in peril.
post #26 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Which brings us full circle of the "Christian Inconsistency". Bickering, infighting (check out Northern Ireland right now), denouncing other denomination's doctrines as downright wrong...yet when you need their numbers to bolster a talking point, there they are, right back in the fold again.
Of course they are "right back in the fold again" but without the rolling eyes smilie.

If you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is the Savior of the World and the only way to salvation is through Jesus, well then, you are a Christian.

It doen't mean you will always agree with the other, unimportant stuff that has no bearing on salvation.

Just because I don't agree with all the other stuff gives me no right to say they are not Christians.

75% of this country still professes to be Christian. That is quite a healthy majority IMO.
post #27 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
That's assuming everyone believes in Jesus.

I would also wager that a lot of folks that say they are atheists will pray to God (whichever one they were raised with as children or believed in at some point in their adult life) when their lives are in peril.
Kind of like, there are no atheists in foxholes.
post #28 of 216
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Of course they are "right back in the fold again" but without the rolling eyes smilie.

If you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is the Savior of the World and the only way to salvation is through Jesus, well then, you are a Christian.

It doen't mean you will always agree with the other, unimportant stuff that has no bearing on salvation.

Just because I don't agree with all the other stuff gives me no right to say they are not Christians.

75% of this country still professes to be Christian. That is quite a healthy majority IMO.

Point taken. So, can I reference this post the next time I'm told that the Klu Klux Klan, or Westboro Baptist Church, or the parents that left their son tied to a tree to die because he failed to "honor thy father and mother" are not Christians? They are, afterall, included in those numbers that you use to obtain that 75% majority.
post #29 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
I would also wager that a lot of folks that say they are atheists will pray to God (whichever one they were raised with as children or believed in at some point in their adult life) when their lives are in peril.
There's a common saying: "There are no atheists in a foxhole."

I worked once with an atheist; I've talked about our discussions here before; I don't doubt the reasons atheists and agnostics have for their beliefs and I would suppose they'd be as true to their beliefs as any other sincerely-held faith. Therefore, I think the foxhole saying is more than just a tad of a stereotypical generalization.

edit: Aaaaaaaakkkkkk!!!! That's what I get for not reading all posts before replying to one!! Cindy beat me to it!!!
post #30 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Point taken. So, can I reference this post the next time I'm told that the Klu Klux Klan, or Westboro Baptist Church, or the parents that left their son tied to a tree to die because he failed to "honor thy father and mother" are not Christians? They are, afterall, included in those numbers that you use to obtain that 75% majority.
It's the polling organization that decides who to include in which percentage and under which label, and whether those are in or out will not make one whit of difference, statistically, to the numbers. Whether it's 75.0000000000000% or 75.000000000001%, it's still a majority. There are some pretty nasty people under all the other labels, too. The label doesn't define the person, it just defines the group.
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