clostrium overgrowth

my girl has clostridium perfringenes bacterial high levels and i am worried. people on this site said she might have tritrickmonas, but my vet think its not related. has anyone had a cat that had this specific bacterial overgrowth? how was it handled? please feel free to PM me

antibiotics and probiotics often are used to control it ... I will look up the bacteria you listed ( at first glance I thought it was a protein in mother milk always re read _

Thanks for everything Sharky you are great!!

Hi! I decided to come ot of lurkdom b/c my pride has been diagnosed with it too. Actually Clostridium perfringens enterotoxin A. I have 7 Ragdolls ranging in age from 15 mo. to 5 mo. and they all have been having intermittent gassy, foul smelling diarrhea. They've been to the vet and I'd taken in several stool samples, all negative. Then finally last week I took 3 more samples in from 3 different kitties and told the vet to run more extensive tests. She called IDEXX and they suggested the Feline Diarrhea Panel–Comprehensive #2627. Not cheap, but I decided to do it. She called me with the results yesterday AM and all came back neg except for Coronavirus (no surprise) and CPE. I'm seeing her tomorrow to discuss treatment which I'm pretty sure will be a round of Amoxicillin for all 7! , but I'll be glad to hopefully get rid if this!

Here's a link to the IDEXX site that shows what it tests for.

http://www.idexx.com/aboutidexx/pres...20090116pr.jsp

I think the test is well worth it, can eliminate a lot and from what I understand is pretty reliable.

I was feeding a raw ground chicken diet and 1 by 1 the litties were coming down with diarrhea (no vomitting). I use Sandy Arora's recipe from Holisticat, but I'm not feeding it anymore. Don't know if it came from the raw diet or not, but for the time being they're on dry (Californial Natural) and when this diarrhea thing is over I'll try adding some wet in the evening.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope it helps.

I have extensive experience with clostridium. I have been dealing with it for four years with cats and dogs. It is an opportunistic bacteria, it is in the gut and is kept in control when the good bacteria are balanced. When things get out of balance, and this can happen for a lot of reasons, you get an overgrowth. I wouldn't be too quick to rule out Tritrichomonas as it is common to have Clostridium with Trich. Trich relies on the good bacteria to survive so it is constantly destroying the good bacteria. That is one of the reasons they think antibiotics help Trich temporarily, it kills the good bacteria so the Trich can't flourish. The most common medication to treat Clostridium is Metronidazole, it dosen't destroy the good bacteria like Amox or other anti-biotics do. Probiotics help also. If it responds but then comes back I would test for Trich. There are many GI problems that can allow a Clostridium overgrowth, anything that upsets the GI trac can lead to it. My two cats have Trich so we have outbreaks from time to time, they have had Metro off and on for over two years, they will always be at risk. My dog had it because she had stomach cancer. I had another cat that we never were able to diagnose the cause but we now believe it was Trich also. Good luck.

Originally Posted by twokatz

The most common medication to treat Clostridium is Metronidazole, it dosen't destroy the good bacteria like Amox or other anti-biotics do.

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I know that you've dealt with it for your pets, but sit down with a doctor and ask about metronidazole. It doesn't spare good bacteria, it is an extremely broad spectrum antibiotic that basically (as doctors described it to me) has a "shotgun" effect - it kills everything. Metronidazole and vancomycin are the two antibiotics used for clostridium.

Clostridium perfringens, like several other types of clostridium, makes endospores. These endospores cannot be destroyed by alcohol, heat, or typical household disinfectants. The only household cleaner that is effective against them is bleach. This means you will have to use a bleach solution on your litter boxes to sterilize them. Wash your hands thoroughly after you've changed litter boxes and if your cat gets up on your counter tops and table make sure to sterilize it before preparing any foods on or near these surfaces (because, again, heat does not kill endospores).
If you find yourself getting ill -diarrhea, fever, nausea, vomiting get yourself to a doctor and make them check you for clostridium perfringens, as it is possible to catch it yourself.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

I know that you've dealt with it for your pets, but sit down with a doctor and ask about metronidazole. It doesn't spare good bacteria, it is an extremely broad spectrum antibiotic that basically (as doctors described it to me) has a "shotgun" effect - it kills everything. Metronidazole and vancomycin are the two antibiotics used for clostridium.

Clostridium perfringens, like several other types of clostridium, makes endospores. These endospores cannot be destroyed by alcohol, heat, or typical household disinfectants. The only household cleaner that is effective against them is bleach. This means you will have to use a bleach solution on your litter boxes to sterilize them. Wash your hands thoroughly after you've changed litter boxes and if your cat gets up on your counter tops and table make sure to sterilize it before preparing any foods on or near these surfaces (because, again, heat does not kill endospores).
If you find yourself getting ill -diarrhea, fever, nausea, vomiting get yourself to a doctor and make them check you for clostridium perfringens, as it is possible to catch it yourself.

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I have sat down with doctors, been in contact with major teaching hospitals and researchers and made my vet give me all the information and spent Months researching it. I am known at my vet's and doctors for my con-compliant attitude, in other words I question everything and take nothing for granted.
Bleach does not kill clostridium as it encsapsulates and the shell it forms basically cannot be killed by any common household disinfecatant. There is no effective way to kill it once it forms a shell, it lives in the environment for years. It was once thought to be species specific but I don't think it is based on my own experiences and research. If you research it you will find that it has become a major heath concern in nursing homes and hospitals, especially in Canada because it is so prevalent and can't be killed. There are studies that can be found on research in hospitals, nursing homes, vet research and teaching hospitals where clostridium was found after cleaning with various disinfectants, including bleach. Vancomycin is no longer effective against Clostridium as it has become resistant. Amox. is used for Clostridium and it does kill the good bacteria, one of my cats gets so bad she needs both Metro and Amox. There have been many research studies done on Metro and it's effect on good bacteria and it has been proven it does not kill the good bacteria as severely as most others antibiotics. Clostridium is a natrual occuring bacteria in all species and the only way to keep it in control is to get the good guys in greater numbers to control it. Once the anti-biotics gets the numbers down you need to introduce good bacteria to recolonize the gut. I am not advocating Metro, it can be harmful but it has been proven to be the safest drug for this use and is the main go to drug for people and animals.
As for catching it, you already have it most likely but it is controlled by your immune system and normal occuring gut flora. If you get out of balance you may have issues with it, for which you will be prescribed the same meds as your animals. My cats do get on my counters but I do not worry about it that much as I know I am in constant contact with this bacteria anyway and bleach does not kill it, however I do sanitize the counters for other reasons. I have more concern with my carpet and the grass in my yard as there is no way to kill the endospores and it is a constant source of contamination. I have never been ill, nor my husband, nor anyone else in my family. But then we are healthy, my elderly mom on the other hand may be at risk.

Taking Amoxicillin is what seriously messed me up and let clostridium over grow to a point that I was hospitalized for it. I was treated with vancomycin (due to previous adverse reactions to metronidazole) - it did work, otherwise I'd probably be dead by now. So obviously all strains are not resistant to it as you believe (only a few are from various types of clostridium - and those "super strains" don't completely follow usual infection patterns - ie, healthy individuals with no risk factors can get it and die . ).

Metronidazole kills most anaerobic bacteria, it doesn't differentiate between good and bad.


http://ehs.uky.edu/biosafety/disinfectants.html discusses cleaners/disinfectants, viruses and spores, and should be simple enough for anyone to read and understand. Of disinfectants discussed formaldehyde, glutaraldhyde, and bleach are the only ones listed for deactiving everything - provided that the surfaces are cleaned before applying and that the disinfectant is applied for 10-30 minutes. The last part alone it probably difficult for most people to follow.


As for how I ended up with it. I don't believe I was a natural carrier, I think a combination of too many antibiotics (3 courses in a row!), nasty dvds at work, and not being allowed breaks to wash hands (can't leave customers unattended) caused it. I had stuff handed to me at work that was covered in fecal matter, found it smeared on shelves, etc.... So hospital settings are not the only major places to pick these bacterias up.

Because I do carry it now, I stress to everyone in my home to please put the toilet seats down or shut the bathroom doors... if my goofy cats ever caught it from me I'd be horrified.

As for carpet.... I hate it for many reasons. Ever wonder why you keep it sometimes?

I hope your mother never gets this. It is terrible. I'm fairly resilient even with my various health problems, but someone elderly wouldn't be - 3-4 days would do serious damage.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

Taking Amoxicillin is what seriously messed me up and let clostridium over grow to a point that I was hospitalized for it. I was treated with vancomycin (due to previous adverse reactions to metronidazole) - it did work, otherwise I'd probably be dead by now. So obviously all strains are not resistant to it as you believe (only a few are from various types of clostridium - and those "super strains" don't completely follow usual infection patterns - ie, healthy individuals with no risk factors can get it and die . ).

Metronidazole kills most anaerobic bacteria, it doesn't differentiate between good and bad.


http://ehs.uky.edu/biosafety/disinfectants.html discusses cleaners/disinfectants, viruses and spores, and should be simple enough for anyone to read and understand. Of disinfectants discussed formaldehyde, glutaraldhyde, and bleach are the only ones listed for deactiving everything - provided that the surfaces are cleaned before applying and that the disinfectant is applied for 10-30 minutes. The last part alone it probably difficult for most people to follow.


As for how I ended up with it. I don't believe I was a natural carrier, I think a combination of too many antibiotics (3 courses in a row!), nasty dvds at work, and not being allowed breaks to wash hands (can't leave customers unattended) caused it. I had stuff handed to me at work that was covered in fecal matter, found it smeared on shelves, etc.... So hospital settings are not the only major places to pick these bacterias up.

Because I do carry it now, I stress to everyone in my home to please put the toilet seats down or shut the bathroom doors... if my goofy cats ever caught it from me I'd be horrified.

As for carpet.... I hate it for many reasons. Ever wonder why you keep it sometimes?

I hope your mother never gets this. It is terrible.

I'm fairly resilient even with my various health problems, but someone elderly wouldn't be - 3-4 days would do serious damage.

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Sounds like you had a rough time of it I'm sorry, I hope you are on probiotics, that is the best way to deal with it after meds. I know how bad it is, my cat died 3 yrs ago from having it for 8 mos. I agree, amox is one of the biggest problems, it kills the good stuff and leaves you vulnerable. I also agree that Metronidazole can be dangerous, as I stated. My year old dog had seizures after a week on it for Clostridium. Cats tolerate it better than dogs, it is not uncommon for dogs to seize on Metro. There was a study done on cats that were given Metro and then had the feces tested, I am not able to quote the bacteria strains that survived but it showed many strains of good bacteria were still in the colon and viable, much better than Amox. Sadly my cats have had to take Metro off and on for almost 3 yrs to combat this bacteria as a side effect of Trich and one cat is no longer helped with Metro alone, the bacteria is resistant so Amox has to be added. Without treating for it they would die. I also realize that Vancomycin is an effective drug but it is not used as much because there has been such a problem with this bacteria developing resistant strains, I'm glad it worked for you. Another drug is Tylan but cats don't tolerate it as well as dogs. We have both looked at studies on killing it, just different studies. My research was geared toward killing it because I had such a problem. It has been some time ago and I do not remember where all the research is, so I can't reference it for you. Bleach may kill most of it but it only takes one spore to cause an infection. Since it is in the soil we all come in contact with it at one time or another. All an animal has to do is step on a contaminated area then ingest it, all you have to do is eat something that has been grown in contaminated soil and you have it. It is a problem in hospitals and nursing homes because it is common that people there are on antibiotics for one reason or another. More and more Docs are cutting back on the meds and increasing natural treatments like probiotics. For my cats this is only short term help as it is a cycle, they will never be able to maintain good bacteria for any length of time. For most animals and people it can be cleared up and stay cleared up, unless something upsets the balance, for mine it is a life long issue that I have to deal with.

I think we can both agree, that though it's all around us and there's little we can do to avoid contact - it's still a good idea for us (and the OP) to try to clean things and wash our hands. When you go out to eat at a restaurant, you hope the person making your food has washed their hands, even though you can and probably will come in contact with all of those harmful organisms some other way eventually.

It may only take one spore, but if you're only ingesting a small number of them you have some hope that your stomach will do it's job and they won't make it passed. When you ingest several thousand or even million at one time you really better be healthy.

I didn't know about dogs and metro! That's good information that I'll, and hopefully anyone else reading, will remember.
It was weird when I took it, my hands went partially numb/tingly for a day along with a terrible headache that progressed into the worst migraine I've had in several years. Unfortunately, our pets can't tell us about such side effects.

Also, antibiotics are not the only medication that serves as a risk factor for people. Just about any long term treatments can be problematic - iirc PPI's (proton pump inhibitors -prilosec, nexium, etc) and acid reducers - because they lower acidity making it easier to become infected, any narcotic painkiller - because they slow digestion, NSAIDs - they're a GI problem risk factor to begin with. There's a few others that I can't remember.
When I became ill I had just finished amox two weeks prior and had been taking prilosec for a while.


I'm sorry that you have so many pets with this, and have even lost one to this. Poor kitty, I couldn't imagine 8 months of that. Do you know how it started? Did one pet help infect all of the others? Have your vet(s) mention if anymore animals brought into your home would potentially be adding to the cycle - and probably your stress load?


As for me, that was nearly 9 months ago - the clostridium colitis is gone, but my GI is a lost cause for other reasons that probiotics can't help.

I wish the OP luck, but please do take some care.(and you too twokatz!) As I said earlier if you or anyone in your homes get terrible diarrhea and a fever (that will be the first part of it), go to a doctor and make them take a stool sample - don't let them give you any antibiotics until they know what is going on.
One of the things that made me so sick was that I went to the ER and was mistreated with more (wrong) antibiotics.

If you haven't already, maybe PM twokatz for any good information pertaining to cats that she can link you to so you can print that out for your vet.

I am afraid if we had any idea what we ingest we would crawl in a cave and not come out

The cat that died started out with it after we brought home a new kitten when her sister died. We had no idea why she had this, she had never in her 10 yrs. had diarhhea. The kitten came from the same cattery as the two I have now with Tritrich, it went back because my little girl was so upset. We now believe after talking to the experts that she probably got TF and we just didn't know what it was 3 yrs. ago. My dog had stomach cancer so her gut was in bad shape, she had it off and on for most of her life when she got stressed. It can be picked up, as you know, from many sources, and not cause problems until the balance is upset for any reason. And yes you are right, it is not just antibiotics that trigger it. ANYTHING that upsets the balance can cause a bout of it, stress, even new food. Luckily it is usually treated and cleared up. As for animals coming into my home and getting it I was told after our dog and cat died that no that couldn't happen, I do believe I proved them wrong My two current dogs have had episodes of it, usually after going to the groomers or being shown. I have quit worrying about it pretty much, I have bigger fish to fry right now, I try to manage the outbreaks without any antibiotcs but sometimes I have to use them, it comes down to pick your poison. With the dogs I try boiled chicken and rice for a bit along with probiotics, it usually manages it.

What I said about dogs and Metro came from a vet internist in Colorado, my breeder talked to him about my dog. He said he seldom uses Metro on dogs as there have been too many react this way. I have talked to other vets and they don't want to own up to that, there again I am a pain in the **** to them

Take care, I agree on the cleaning part, my cats think litter boxes are supposed to smell like Clorox