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Playing with fire here...Topic: Abortion - Page 3  

post #61 of 84
I can't help but to be intrigued by the fact that posters who were quite concerned about "Christian bashing" can now be quite thoroughly bashing a denomination of Christianity with at least, if not more, gusto than the posts they found offensive. This would seem to give even more credibility to my statement of inconsistency.

What a wonderfully odd world we live in.
post #62 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
I can't help but to be intrigued by the fact that posters who were quite concerned about "Christian bashing" can now be quite thoroughly bashing a denomination of Christianity with at least, if not more, gusto than the posts they found offensive. This would seem to give even more credibility to my statement of inconsistency.

What a wonderfully odd world we live in.
This is a collection of posts that OTHER posters have made, none are identified, but all could be classified as "church bashing." I don't really see where what I said was any different. As a matter of fact, it seems I'm in agreement with most of them. What an wonderfully odd world where it's OK for some but not for others. Looked at objectively, my posts are a critical analysis of what the Catholic church could do to be more relevant to its flock. These other posts are mostly just comments on what's wrong with the church. Who's actually doing the bashing here? Maybe what I'm missing here is that it's fine for CATHOLICS to bash the Catholic church, but not non-Catholics. If that's the case, I erred, and I apologize to any practicing Catholics reading this thread who found my posts offensive. I would expect equal treatment from others when I find their posts offensive.
post #63 of 84
Overall I think it shows how inconsistent the Catholic church is when it comes to what is considered an exommunicable act and what isn't. I don't believe I've ever heard of anyone in the US being excommunicated over abortion but I may be wrong. I haven't paid much attention to it.

It's about power and control, something which the Catholic Church knows a lot about and has a lot of history with. Excommunication and the Sale of Indulgence were only part of it. Since it was sort of brought up, the Church also has a bloody history of executions on its hands.

I don't bring any of this up as an attempt to bash. I just think there is a bigger picture here when it comes to the church, its teachings/practices, and its actions.
post #64 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
This is a collection of posts that OTHER posters have made, none are identified, but all could be classified as "church bashing." I don't really see where what I said was any different. As a matter of fact, it seems I'm in agreement with most of them. What an wonderfully odd world where it's OK for some but not for others. Maybe what I'm missing here is that it's fine for CATHOLICS to bash the Catholic church, but not non-Catholics. If that's the case, I erred, and I apologize to any practicing Catholics reading this thread who found my posts offensive. I would expect equal treatment from others when I find their posts offensive.
Actually, every post quoted here was a poster stating their opinion, not presenting complete falsehoods as fact. The Catholic encyclopedia states quite plainly that excommunication is based in Anathema, and is only from the Church as a society. It also plainly states that the excommunicated is still a Christian, and still has their faith, they simply are not part of the society until penance is done. It doesn't say one thing anywhere about having keys to the Kingdom or any such thing.
http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Excommunication
post #65 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
What an wonderfully odd world where it's OK for some but not for others.
Well yes, that's exactly what I was referring too. To complain of bashing, then turn about and bash. Kind of odd, no?
post #66 of 84
Peter and the keys to the kingdom is the basis for the sole authority of the Pope. The only connection it has to excommunication is in the Papal authority.
post #67 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Well yes, that's exactly what I was referring too. To complain of bashing, then turn about and bash. Kind of odd, no?
Then if I'm to be censured for it, should not all the others? Kind of odd, no? I'm just looking for a bit of fairness here.
post #68 of 84
According to this article, it's not just the Catholic church losing membership. It would appear that ALL of them are doing something wrong.

Most religious groups in USA losing ground.
post #69 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Peter and the keys to the kingdom is the basis for the sole authority of the Pope. The only connection it has to excommunication is in the Papal authority.
Then what did the statement have to do with a mere Archbishop threatening to excommunicate this girl's family?
post #70 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Then if I'm to be censured for it, should not all the others? Kind of odd, no? I'm just looking for a bit of fairness here.
When exactly were you censured? And how exactly do you conclude that my opinions were directed at you alone? You are not the only one to have posted complaints of "bashing" in the thread, and also not the only one to have bashed at the Catholic church since.
post #71 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Peter and the keys to the kingdom is the basis for the sole authority of the Pope. The only connection it has to excommunication is in the Papal authority.
So, according to you, some of the Catholic Church's beliefs have no authority! That's interesting. I think many Catholics may disagree with you.

ETA - Just wanted to add that I don't believe in some of the "rules" of the Baptist church (I was raised Baptist) but I don't presume to say their beliefs are not valid. If some folks believe in them, that's great.
post #72 of 84
The Archbishop derives his authority from the pope. He's acting as agent, in legalese.

You did use the plural; however, I'm the one who expressed concern so it's quite obvious.

I know how to play those language tricks, too.
post #73 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post

You did use the plural; however, I'm the one who expressed concern so it's quite obvious.

I know how to play those language tricks, too.
I'm afraid your "language tricks" have surpassed mine since I have no idea what you are referring to or even talking about.
post #74 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
So, according to you, some of the Catholic Church's beliefs have no authority! That's interesting. I think many Catholics may disagree with you.
No church, Catholic church included, has authority to excommunicate or in any other way to imply they deny access to God. When a Catholic is excommunicated, they're denied access to the sacraments. If a Catholic is denied access to the sacraments, the very best they can hope for is getting into Purgatory. Perhaps my error is in singling out the Catholic Church, but after all that was the church that was the object of this thread. You want me to go after Lutherans next? How about Unitarians? I could really get going there if you want some balance.
post #75 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
I'm afraid your "language tricks" have surpassed mine since I have no idea what you are referring to or even talking about.

You'll have to ask Mike to teach a class in the mod's forum.
post #76 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster
I could really get going there if you want some balance.
Oh, and BTW, Linda if you want to supply the balance, you can go after the "Dutch Reform" church you mentioned earlier. That's the denomination I grew up in. Go for it, girl!!
post #77 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
No church, Catholic church included, has authority to excommunicate or in any other way to imply they deny access to God. When a Catholic is excommunicated, they're denied access to the sacraments. If a Catholic is denied access to the sacraments, the very best they can hope for is getting into Purgatory. Perhaps my error is in singling out the Catholic Church, but after all that was the church that was the object of this thread. You want me to go after Lutherans next? How about Unitarians? I could really get going there if you want some balance.
So now you are saying that the Church IS required for salvation? How can it be a personal thing, with no requirement for a Church, but then being without a Church means purgatory?
post #78 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
No church, Catholic church included, has authority to excommunicate or in any other way to imply they deny access to God. When a Catholic is excommunicated, they're denied access to the sacraments. If a Catholic is denied access to the sacraments, the very best they can hope for is getting into Purgatory. Perhaps my error is in singling out the Catholic Church, but after all that was the church that was the object of this thread. You want me to go after Lutherans next? How about Unitarians? I could really get going there if you want some balance.
But Tim, the whole problem with your argument is that you say the Catholic Church has no authority to excommunicate because of your own beliefs. For a Catholic they do indeed believe that the church has the power (authority - whatever you want to call it) to excommunicate and therefore that makes it very real to the Catholic practitioner. Whether your bible, or your belief makes excommunication viable or not is not even the question here. The question was whether the church (archbishop acting for the church) should have excommunicated the mother and doctor for the abortion not whether excommunication is valid or not. Most Catholics (even lapsed ones such as myself) don't much care if you believe excommunication is valid to you or not - it's important to the Catholics and has absolutely nothing to do with whether those 2 people should have been excommunicated for allowing/performing the abortion.
post #79 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Oh, and BTW, Linda if you want to supply the balance, you can go after the "Dutch Reform" church you mentioned earlier. That's the denomination I grew up in. Go for it, girl!!
Why would I? They have as much right to their beliefs as I do in mine. I have friends and family that are Dutch Reform and they're wonderful people so again, I have no idea what you are talking about.

ETA: That explains some things to me but it also brings up questions. The girl I worked with who is Dutch Reform told me that if I did not go to church every week faithfully that I would not go to heaven. She seemed upset when I told her that was OK since I preferred to go where my friends are going anyway.
post #80 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post

You'll have to ask Mike to teach a class in the mod's forum.
Mike, I will need you to explain this to me as I'm totally at sea with the "plural" comment.
post #81 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
But Tim, the whole problem with your argument is that you say the Catholic Church has no authority to excommunicate because of your own beliefs. .
Yes, of course my arguments are based on my beliefs, same as anyone else who would take a position on any subject. Why in the world would I argue a position based on someone else's beliefs? Silly............

The position I've taken and defended based on those beliefs is that if the Catholic church had never instituted, or had abandonded, excommunication, there wouldn't have been a problem. Like I said earlier, instead of just moaning about how nasty the church was in doing this, go to the root cause. Somehow, I think people would prefer things stay the way they are so they have something to moan about. It's just human nature.
post #82 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
Mike, I will need you to explain this to me as I'm totally at sea with the "plural" comment.
I'll send a PM, posting it on the forum may trigger episodes of "persecution complex".
post #83 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Yes, of course my arguments are based on my beliefs, same as anyone else who would take a position on any subject. Why in the world would I argue a position based on someone else's beliefs? Silly............
I guess you missed the rest of my post - here it is. Nowhere in the OP was there a question on whether excommunication per se was valid or not so I fail to understand why you are even arguing the point. Again you confuse me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
For a Catholic they do indeed believe that the church has the power (authority - whatever you want to call it) to excommunicate and therefore that makes it very real to the Catholic practitioner. Whether your bible, or your belief makes excommunication viable or not is not even the question here. The question was whether the church (archbishop acting for the church) should have excommunicated the mother and doctor for the abortion not whether excommunication is valid or not. Most Catholics (even lapsed ones such as myself) don't much care if you believe excommunication is valid to you or not - it's important to the Catholics and has absolutely nothing to do with whether those 2 people should have been excommunicated for allowing/performing the abortion.
post #84 of 84
Thread Starter 
First, let me say that Catholics are not the only denomination with excommunication. The Lutheran Church Wisconsin Synod also has it, although I don't believe it is as commonly known or practiced. But this is really off topic, so I'll stop it there.

But really, once again, the purpose of this thread wasn't to "bash Christianity" or Catholics. The purpose wasn't to debate the legitimacy of the dogma of excommunication.

I know that there are strong feelings on both sides of the issue of abortion, and generally those who are strongly against abortion feel that way because of their religious beliefs. The question was if there are any circumstances where abortion can be justified from a religious perspective, such as the extreme case here where the person getting the abortion is 9 years old, has been raped, is quite small and carrying twins which would definitely put the lives of her and the babies in jeopardy. In this extreme case, the Catholic Church, which is predominant in the region and obviously has direct ties to the family, chose to condemn the abortion regardless of circumstance.

From the overwhelming responses here, it appears that people who are quite religious and even those who are Catholic in their faith believe that circumstances such as this extreme case are an exception to their overall view of being Pro-Life. Actually, I don't believe there were any responses saying that this was not a case where abortion was the best thing for the girl, regardless of their personal view on abortion or religion.

Since this thread really has denigrated from the original purpose to something akin to religious name calling, I am going to make the call to just close the thread.

Thank you everyone for your opinion on this topic.
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