Playing with fire here...Topic: Abortion  

The Church should be ashamed of itself for fighting this abortion IMO. Yet another reason I am a lapsed Catholic. That is just beyond stupid.

Wow.

Just when you think you've heard everything there is to hear about bad situations and just how awful some people are, you hear something new, like this. I just can't imagine what the girl and mother went through in this situation...

OK, I am personally anti-abortion (I am a christian, but not catholic), but I just can't wrap my head around this situation.

Normally, if we were, say, talking about abortion rights here in the US, I'd say that I'm against abortion unless 1. infant will not survive, 2. health of mother is seriously at risk.
I feel especially strongly about "late term" abortions because often the infants would be viable outside the womb and I was born prematurely...so personal connection there.

In this situation, I'll go out on a limb and say that I *think* that it was the right decision... because the 80lb immature mother would most likely not survive pregnancy...the twin infants would, under "best case" scenerio be born crazy early due to size, twins, and mother's size...thus, would most likely not make it....

That is just my take on it though... and I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself... I'm just glad that I wasn't ever in that situation and hopefully will never be in it (if I do, say, have a daughter in the future).

All I can say is that we need to pray for the family and the 9 year old girl. The catholics might have excommunicated them, but hopefully a protestant group / church will feel lead to intercede and show them God's mercy and love.

Art

I'm Catholic and I can't even imagine how this little girl could carry twins? Physically I just can't imagine how the pregnancy could continue. Why risk her life as well as the lives of the unborn children? What possible chance would she have of carrying this pregnancy to term and how could anyone risk her life in that way? I can't help but think of this the same way I view tubal pregnancies.. the rupture could kill the mother and needs to be treated. How could a tiny child possibly carry this pregnancy to term without it killing her or the babies? I would keep appealing the excommunication.

Wow - I'm sorry, but how the could a 9 year old girl be able to care for one baby, let alone twins?

IMO, the catholic church was stupid on this one - the welfare of the mother (good gravy, a 9 year old girl) & the unborn twins - wow I can't see how they would've fared well due to her age/size.

That sums it up for me as well

I'm not surprised, just another irrationality of the Catholic Church. That's why I'm no longer a part of ANY church- I don't agree with them dictating how I lead my life. The doctrine is all there, no need to have a church interpret it for me, I can do all by myself...

well, for me, the only acceptable time is welfare of the mother... but for this case, i would say mental/emotional welfare would apply, in addition to physical welfare.

but for an adult, no - if i had been raped when i was of childbearing age, i would have chosen to have the baby. if i was unable to bear raising it myself, i would have given the baby up for adoption. i actually made this decision upon becoming an adult. i find that with this type of decision, it's best to make it prior to emotions becoming involved. that way, you can decide based upon your beliefs, rather than your feelings.

Situations like this are exactly the reason why I don't like organized religion. I respect the beliefs of others and completely understand their need for/desire for a spiritual foundation, but I think everyone should be free to believe and due what they think is right and good, not what their church tells them they should be doing. How does anyone who believes in God think that He would reject this CHILD who was horrifically raped and faced with a life-treatening pregnancy as a result?

The world is not black and white.

I'm not sure how I would feel about keeping a baby if I was raped. I guess it depends on how much mental damage is done by the rape....I think it's possible that someone can hate their rapist so much that it's impossible for them to love their baby, a rape can get extremely damaging to one's emotions... I don't believe that because the father was a rapist then the child will have something wrong with it as well, I know some people try to make that argument and that's pretty unfortunate...
If it's incestuous rape then I would NEVER keep the baby due to health issues that could arise...

I think that the abortion is a private matter between the mother of the child and God.
The little girl is to young to have any culpability in this situation at all as far I am concerned.

But what the Church did was HORRENDOUS in my opinion.

I am from Brazil, and I hate the abortion laws in there. Abortion in there is a crime, unless the pregnancy is a result of rape, or life threatening to the mother.
Besides the point of being morally right or not, a woman should have the right to chose, and pursue her choice in a safely manner. I am saying this because THOUSANDS of women die every year in Brasil as result of "Butcher abortions". Thinking that it is, or not moral, is way beyond the issue. In reality, if a woman wants to have an abortion, she will, no matter by what means, even if it means to stick a hanger on their insides to get it done. Believe me, it happens more often that you can imagine.
The Catholic church has no power as far as the law goes, and quite frankly, excommunication of the mother and the doctors is just a media stunt.
Brasil is the biggest Catholic country in the world, and unfortunately the Pope goes there quite often. I say unfortunately because he tends to go to very poor neighborhoods, when people have nothing but their faiths, and preach against birth control, condoms, etc. Now, is he going to feed those motheres that have one loaf of bread for their 12 kids? I think not!
IMO, the Catholic Church does way more harm than good in Brasil, and I wish they could be just a little more sensitive to peoples' troubles in there.
As far as the abortion situation goes, I truly truly wish that it becomes legal; It would mean saving the lives of many thousands of women.

I just do not understand people being against birth control.
A guy I work with has seven kids and he is a good born again Christian.
He has nothing but trouble with his kids constantly, his oldest son has been in prison a few times. Nothing but drama, drama, drama. His youngest son O.D.'d and almost died from GYPSUM of all things. Bad scene.

And he is STILL against birth control. I told him, "Jim, with all your problems with all your kids you are THE POSTER CHILD for birth control" He had no reply to that.

My feeling is, we were fruitful, we did multiply, enough already.

..That's another problem that I have with the Catholic Church...people who are catholic cannot feel like good christians unless they obey all the rules of the church, and if they use birth control then they feel like they are bad christians...
that's why I don't blame people, I blame the church.

Media stunt? No, I think that's a misread. While I disagree with the action, and I should qualify my post by saying I'm not a Catholic, I think I can see where the Catholic church is coming from here. Not that it's justified, but as an explanation. In the first place, the Catholic church is a church of long and strong traditions. It's a church where the practice of the Catholic religion is of highest importance, where the keeping of the teachings of the church is mandatory. The Catholic church in Latin America has been losing ground to Protestant and non-demoninational sectors of the Christian religion, who are against the heavy influence of tradition and ritual, religiosity and legalism. So my take is that the Catholic church is trying to re-exert its influence and regain its former power in Latin America, and that this incident is just a manifestation of that. So it's no media stunt; it's in all seriousness. They mean it. Toe the line or you're out of the church.

Just another example of what I've said several times in this forum: religion and faith are not one and the same.

The Catholic Church in there has the same power as the Christian Church in here. People in there are not robots to the Church, so I am not sure of what you mean with "former power".
It is of all seriousness to the Church, but not necessarily to the person. Furthermore - they can't kick somebody out of Church. There is no membership to get in the Church. Yes, this girl is not going to be able to marry in the Church, but that is about it. Nobody has pictures of this girl in the Churches to make sure she is not allowed in it. She, as everybody else is allowed.
It is a media stunt in the sense that this girl is being "punished" (provided that she even cares) to teach a lesson. Same thing of the sheriff wanting to send Michael Phelps to jail because of a picture of a bong. SAME thing.
I am "Catholic" and for what I care, they can excommunicate me as many times as they want. I could care less. And If I want to go to Church, nobody would stop me.

I see where you are coming from, but for a 9 year old naive little girl who has just been raped by her stepfather, excommunication can mean pretty bad emotional consequences. You may feel like you could care less if you get excommunicated, but that's because you are an adult woman with a sense of identity that you've already developed. I mean she has already been through so much, and to be also called publicly a sinner and excommunicated?? It seems like they are dooming her, that's how people get on the wrong track, she already feels as if she's done something wrong and is labeled as such by the catholic church, so now it's time to her to fulfill that role that they've just given her. (it's just what happens psychologically, how people in that situation normally feel)..I mean unless she has someone there to guide her through this and tell her every single day that none of this really means anything and she should forget about it and live her life guilt free, this is what is going to happen. Of course she can walk into any church no one is going to stop her, but is she going to want to do it after all this?? I think not...It's really really terrible what they've done to her..Instead of trying to help her cope with the emotional issues of being raped by her stepfather, for which she NEEDS help, they've made things 1000 times worse...

I personally think the Catholic Church needs to get into this century. Their membership is going down and young people nowadays just don't and won't go along with their archaic teachings. If they don't get modernized to some degree they will have fewer and fewer folks in their congregations.

I am surprised at the amount of members there are- I think it's surprisingly high! I was raised Eastern Orthodox Christian, very similar to Catholic- well membership there is a joke, at least in Eastern Europe. Members are mostly people over 60.

NEVER in my post I defended the Catholic Church - I am simply saying they did this for the media. If the girl cares or not, I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows, besides her family. I truly don't think this girl is going around with rocks being thrown on her. I do not like the Catholic Church ,and what I can tell you, is that in Brasil, in GENERAL, people are not as religious as here. Yes, they are baptized, yes, they have a first communion, and a LOT of us are called Catholics because of that. I think ,in this girls mind, the least of her concerns is the Church.
The Church in there is NOT like the church in here - where it's a community, with Sunday classes, events, and a whole church life. For most people in there, it is an hour a week, IF that much. I guarantee you, the majority of Catholics in there are not practicing.
So, in the end, this is coming from the Church, and not from the Brasilian people. I say again - I am not sure if this affects this girl at all.
Yes, it is disgusting what the Church is doing. And yes, if she feels strongly about God (which at 9, I doubt you have your OWN beliefs on that regard), go to a Christian Church, or whatever. Listen - her Stepfather raped her, in her mother's house - do you really think, this is a family that goes to church every weekend, and have a church life? I DOUBT IT.

Ok, and by the way: the girl was not Excommunicated. Her mother and the doctors who performed the abortion were. I have no idea why this paper said that she was excommunicated, but after reading the Brasilian newspapers, it turns out that it was not it.
The mother made the decision - Excommunicated.
The Doctors performed the act - Excommunicated.
The child did not have a say in it, and was not punished by the Church.

PS - the Stepfather is in jail.

We are Catholic. Having said that, we do not attend church and haven't for years and most of my husband's family do not. His parents do go every Sunday still. One of his brothers has joined the Christian Reform (Dutch) church because he married a girl of that faith and they do attend their church weekly. One of his other brothers has left the Catholic Church to become a member of the Byzantine Catholic faith (the original Catholic religion) and he and his wife practice that faith. The rest of us just don't go to church and most of the people we know who are Catholic are non-practicing. There is a Catholic Church in our community and I don't believe I've seen anyone go in there that is under 65 yrs. old.

Same way it is in Brasil.... You are Catholic, but just don't practice... Just the way it is, for the majority of people anyway...

I hope the church at least ex-communicated the step-father too, he's the one who really deserves that

NO - apparently rape is not as serious as an abortion. The only people excommunicated were her mother (not the girl, but her mother), and the doctors. The stepfather is in jail.

I am glad the girl did not get excommunicated..
carolinalima- I wasn't saying that you defended the catholic church, i just got the idea from your post that you thought the girl just shouldn't care and so it's not a big deal..I mean to me it's not a big deal but I was just saying to someone else it might be a huge deal...Anyway I probably misinterpreted what you were saying, sorry about that.
Actually the US is an extremely religious country compared to the rest of the world, with all the protestant denominations here people take religion extremely seriously is what i've noticed, so I am not surprised at all that Brazil is less religious...

Well, I think this is a tad hypocritical of the church. Nancy Pelosi is rabidly pro-choice and didn't she just recently receive communion from the Pope himself?

Hey you could probably have a list that would be pages long if you listed everything the church is hypocritical about.