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Color and Genetics Question

post #1 of 30
3/3/09 at 7:34am
Thread Starter 
Hi Hi!

I am fascinated by the discussions that some of you have about genetics and color.

To that end...we have a tuxedo momma cat who just had her kittens last night (in a shelter). She had 3 solid black, 2 tuxedo and one Calico! The calico kind of threw all of us for a loopdie doo! Is the gene for a calico a recessive one? It is usually on one side or the other as far as moms or dads?

Oddly enough, I just bought a book last week called "Cats are not Peas: A genetic history of Calicos", but havent had a chance to crack it open yet!

Thanks so much for any information!
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post #2 of 30
3/3/09 at 8:17am
The calico kitten means that father of the litter must be red (with or without white). There is no 'calico-gene' so the answer to if it's recessive is no, the red color is the key here. One of the parents has to have red to produce kittens with red (same thing with white). Red color is tied to gender, to the X chromosome. (My english is so crappy that I can't explain it right..).

Examples:
-When mommy is black and daddy is red, you'll get tortie females and black males,
-When mommy is tortie and daddy is black, you'll get tortie & black females and black & red males,
-Tortie mommy and red daddy will have red or tortie females and black & red males
-With red mommy and black daddy, kittens will be red&tortie females and red males
-Black mommy&daddy= black babies
-Red mommy&daddy= red babies

Did that make any sense?
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post #3 of 30
3/3/09 at 10:21am
Thread Starter 
Your English is FANTASTIC!! That made a lot of sense! Thanks so much!
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post #4 of 30
3/3/09 at 10:40am
In order to get the calico - you have to have one black gene and one red gene. Because mom is a black/white bicolor (proper term - not "tuxedo") - then dad had to be a red tabby or red tabby/white.

Cats can breed with more then one male at a time, so technically each kitten can have a different father. Since you got one solid color, more then likely the red dad was also the father of the solid kitten (guessing he didn't have white on him).

I love genetics and got the basics - but now am learning about the colors in Oci's and the way they work with colors not common (cinnamon, lavender, etc.).
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post #5 of 30
3/3/09 at 12:16pm
My feral mamacat (who will NOT go into the trap! Argh!) is red, and had 2 calicos (female of course), a red male and a red and white male. So that means daddycat would have been black? How about solid gray (not tabby)? Is that genetically considered black or is it different? There's a solid gray tom hanging around and I wonder what her next litter will look like.
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post #6 of 30
3/3/09 at 12:39pm
My male sphynx just became proud papa to one solid black male, one blue and cream tortie and one calico female. Momma was black and white bi color and we have always considered dad, cream. Could what I have been calling a cream be truly a red male??? It is difficult with no hair to tell??? Would those color combos be possible with a Cream Male or just a Red Male??? Sorry if I highjacked your thread!!!
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post #7 of 30
3/3/09 at 1:00pm
Blue is the dilute of black
Cream is the dilute of red

In order to get dilute - both parents either have to be dilutes or carry dilute.
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post #8 of 30
3/3/09 at 6:50pm
I once had 2 shorthaired black and white kitties, brother and sister..

They mated (I know, I didn't know any better to let siblings mate)

The litter they produced were color point! White with siamese markings. The boy was long haired. The 2 girls was snowshoe, medium hair. There must have been a siamese in the gene pool somewhere!
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post #9 of 30
3/3/09 at 6:57pm
They were carrying not only the pointed gene but the longhair gene as recessives
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post #10 of 30
3/4/09 at 1:28pm
Cool. I've never looked into cat color genetics before.

OK, so if the red tabby mamacat was bred by the blue, blue-and-white, or black tom, she'll have torties and red tabbies again. If she was bred by the red tabby tom, she'll have red tabby babies.

And her tortie daughter (I caught and spayed one, the other also won't go in the trap) will have red, black, and/or tortie babies (no red females) if the daddycat is the blue, blue-and-white, or the black tom. If it's the red tom, she'll also have red, black, and/or tortie babies, but no black females.

What about gray/brown tabbies? How do they come out genetically?



And a puzzle for you----my first cats (now 19 and they still live with my mom) are litter-sisters. One is calico (properly called tortie-and-white, correct?) and one is gray tabby-and-white. Their brother was red tabby-and-white, and there were 2 other kittens we never saw. We we told their mother was a purebred Siamese (no word on coloring), and daddycat was a stray. There was a tom hanging around who was mostly white with red tabby areas (van markings?) who had a bobtail (we lived in Japan at the time---half the streets cats have naturally bobbed tails). Our gray tabby-and-white cat also has a partially bobbed tail. So, was that tom the daddycat? Or genetically would it have had to have been a different tom?
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post #11 of 30
3/5/09 at 8:58am
How do the genetics work with a Siamese father and a Tabby mother?
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post #12 of 30
3/5/09 at 10:32am
With tabbies, if its brown, then genetically think "black" - tho the kittens would be brown tabby.

With Siamese, the seal points are genetically "blacK" too. Blue points would be "blue" or the dilute of black. It gets a bit tricky when you throw in the chocolate and lilac colors - that's where I'm learning because those colors are in the Ocicats (including cinnamon).

My Oci breeder is good at genetics with the colors. I'm not quite sure how it works, but she said the tawny, chocolate and cinnamons are treated like the "black" gene to a point. Gets too technical for most to try and figure out or follow. I STILL am not quite sure with the chocolate/cinnamons yet.
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post #13 of 30
3/5/09 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
With tabbies, if its brown, then genetically think "black" - tho the kittens would be brown tabby.

With Siamese, the seal points are genetically "blacK" too. Blue points would be "blue" or the dilute of black. It gets a bit tricky when you throw in the chocolate and lilac colors - that's where I'm learning because those colors are in the Ocicats (including cinnamon).

My Oci breeder is good at genetics with the colors. I'm not quite sure how it works, but she said the tawny, chocolate and cinnamons are treated like the "black" gene to a point. Gets too technical for most to try and figure out or follow. I STILL am not quite sure with the chocolate/cinnamons yet.
The father is a Seal Point siamese. Here is a picture of him


here is the mother


What color do you guesstimate that the babies would be? A friend of mine had just a mix breed cat and it mated with this Siamese and all the kittens look like a flame point Siamese all with blue eyes.
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post #14 of 30
3/5/09 at 1:09pm
The colorpoint is recessive, meaning that you need to get it from both parents to have pointed kittens. In this case if the mommy carries colorpoint, pointed kittens may be born: seal and tortie pointed females, seal and red pointed males.
If the mommy doesn't carry colorpoint the kittens will propably be tabbies or solids: black(brown) and tortie females, black(brown) and red males.

I'm not sure about tabby points though, I have just started to read about colorpoints after adding a lilacpoint to my kitty family.
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post #15 of 30
3/11/09 at 5:35am
I keep seeing that male calicos are rare... I have two brothers, born Jan 20th. They aren't identical, one has white around his eyes the other has black around his eyes. Statistically 1 in 3000 calicos are male, guess I'm lucky. Odd litter, they have a sister kitten who is orange tabby and female, 80 percent of orange cats are female. They are too cute!
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post #16 of 30
3/11/09 at 5:49am
This is probably the dumbest question that has ever been asked but: isn't it possible that there are kittens in the same litter who have different fathers?
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post #17 of 30
3/11/09 at 7:02am
I was googling this morning and found a thread somewhere on some site that said it is possible, I had never heard of it. I don't know if it is possible, it was a message board and not a scientific site or something.
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post #18 of 30
3/11/09 at 7:16am
Yes, it's possible for kittens in a litter to have different fathers. This can explain some odd colors that show up. Dogs are the same way.
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post #19 of 30
3/11/09 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkat View Post
I keep seeing that male calicos are rare... I have two brothers, born Jan 20th. They aren't identical, one has white around his eyes the other has black around his eyes. Statistically 1 in 3000 calicos are male, guess I'm lucky. Odd litter, they have a sister kitten who is orange tabby and female, 80 percent of orange cats are female. They are too cute!
Male calicos are rare because in order to have all three colors (red, black, white) they have to have XXY chromosomes instead of XY. They are also usually sterile, but you should still have them neutered, just in case.

I think you reversed the statistics on orange males and females. I have an orange (red) tabby female, and one of the first things I learned both on this site and from talking to other cat lovers is that most orange cats are male. I don't know if 80% is the right number, but it's probably close.

Can you post pictures of your kittens? We love baby pictures. The Fur Pictures and Videos forum would be a good place to start a new thread.
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post #20 of 30
3/11/09 at 1:32pm
Mom is a brown tabby; Dad is a seal point (black genetically).

You should get mainly brown tabby or blacks. If both are carrying dilute you can get blue tabby or blues. If they are carrying colorpoint and or dilute you can get seal point, blue point, seal lynx point or blue lynx point.
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post #21 of 30
3/11/09 at 2:56pm
Quote:
I think you reversed the statistics on orange males and females. I have an orange (red) tabby female, and one of the first things I learned both on this site and from talking to other cat lovers is that most orange cats are male. I don't know if 80% is the right number, but it's probably close.
oops! I know what i meant to say..LOL

I tried to post pictures but I cant figure it out?

They are so adorable I would love to show them off.
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post #22 of 30
3/11/09 at 3:14pm
You'll need to upload your pictures to a website like photobucket.com. I know there are others out there, but that's the one I'm familiar with. It's free to sign up. Once you get your pictures uploaded, click on the IMG code for each one, copy & paste it into the message box here. Your picture should show up in the message. I always do a Preview Post just to make sure I got it right before I submit the post.
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post #23 of 30
3/11/09 at 3:18pm
Thank you so much!
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post #24 of 30
3/12/09 at 8:05am
Jonkat posted pictures of his kittens in the New Kids on the Block forum.
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post #25 of 30
3/12/09 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernGlow View Post
The colorpoint is recessive, meaning that you need to get it from both parents to have pointed kittens. In this case if the mommy carries colorpoint, pointed kittens may be born: seal and tortie pointed females, seal and red pointed males.
If the mommy doesn't carry colorpoint the kittens will propably be tabbies or solids: black(brown) and tortie females, black(brown) and red males.
Just had to add that the mommy looks like a torbie on my monitor, but if she's not, then forget all the red babies.
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post #26 of 30
3/12/09 at 12:57pm
I don't see enough red on her to make her a torbie - that's why I assumed brown tabby. Browns have shadings that sometimes look a bit reddish but is not true red tabby mixed.

If she does throw torbies/red tabbys - then we do know she's a torbie and not a brown tabby.
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post #27 of 30
3/12/09 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
I don't see enough red on her to make her a torbie - that's why I assumed brown tabby. Browns have shadings that sometimes look a bit reddish but is not true red tabby mixed.

If she does throw torbies/red tabbys - then we do know she's a torbie and not a brown tabby.

If we are still talking about my female. She is definately a brown tabby. I guess we will have to see what the kits look like when they are born. My best friend's female is a torbie with white.... and she threw all flame point siamese. I sure didn't plan for mine to be having kittens, but it is exciting wondering what they will look like.
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post #28 of 30
3/12/09 at 1:57pm
I'll just re up different pics of them to get a better idea of color of them

Max the father



Ali the queen
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post #29 of 30
3/12/09 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhitePwny View Post

Ali the queen
Mum looks almost like she might have some red-orange areas... that would make her a patched tabby (torbie) no?
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post #30 of 30
3/12/09 at 6:04pm
No - its normal brown tabby shadings. There is no red tabby in her.
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