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Pelosi and the Pope

post #1 of 18
2/17/09 at 3:33pm
Thread Starter 
Should he choose to do so, he could refuse to give communion to her during her big visit (at taxpayer expense) to the Vatican this week.

Given that the catechism states that "formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life," and her well documented record for abortion, I'd be interested to hear your opinions (especially from practicing Catholics) on how far this should be carried out, if at all.

I think it would be a bold move, and I know we really have no way of ever knowing if it happens or not (as its a private meeting I suspect.) I see more consistency in the Vatican of late than in the past, so nothing would surprise me.
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post #2 of 18
2/18/09 at 5:35am
I didn't know Pelosi was a catholic. Thats ridiculously ironic, the fact that she is supporting abortion means to me she's definitely not a catholic anymore, if she was once. She definitely cannot get communion, for that to happen she would have to acknowledge that she was wrong, and I'm sure she doesn't acknowledge it and doesn't plan to change.
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post #3 of 18
2/18/09 at 9:55am
Thread Starter 
And the Pope speaketh. Diplomatically, of course.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/feb/09021801.html

"His Holiness took the opportunity to speak of the requirements of the natural moral law and the Church's consistent teaching on the dignity of human life from conception to natural death which enjoin all Catholics, and especially legislators, jurists and those responsible for the common good of society, to work in cooperation with all men and women of good will in creating a just system of laws capable of protecting human life at all stages of its development."

Not a smackdown, but its obvious she's not following the doctrine.
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post #4 of 18
2/18/09 at 10:01am
I didn't know she was Catholic either. Technically, I think she can still take communion IF she goes to confession first and is honestly sorry for her decisions.....but I don't see that one happening.
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post #5 of 18
2/18/09 at 6:43pm
Ooooh, Pelosi got the smack down from the Pope, no less. GOOD.

I'm sure she was shocked as she seems like she thinks she is so far above us mere mortals.

She probably told His Holiness, "Do you know who I am?"
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post #6 of 18
2/18/09 at 8:12pm
No offense meant toward any Catholic Democrats on the board, but this is one of those hypocritical things I just can't wrap my head around.

Organized religion, especially one with as much rigor and history as Catholicism, is pretty much a take it or leave it kind of thing. You can find a denomination that meets with most individual views - there are some who don't find birth control to be a sin, some that have no issue with gay marriage, some who see abortion as a gray area, and some that are even more rigid than Catholicism in all of those areas and more. But they are what they are. Their tenants are their tenants and you can't just ignore the ones you don't like. If she truly is Catholic (as well as many other Catholic Congressmen and women), then she cannot be Pro-Choice. It is contrary to their doctrine, clearly. Catholics are very clear about their doctrine on social issues. Unlike other denominations they don't believe in grey areas!
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post #7 of 18
2/19/09 at 4:04am
I most certainly can ignore the tenets I don't like and do. My choice. I like the community of the Catholic Church and I like Mass. My mother has not recieved communion since she married my father over 35 years ago as my father was divorce and technically still married in the eyes of the church. She is still Catholic. There is not a thing in my life, whether it be a religion, politic, work, hobbies or anything that I agree with completely. Doesn't mean I leave or don't participate.
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post #8 of 18
2/19/09 at 5:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by peachytoday View Post
I most certainly can ignore the tenets I don't like and do. My choice. I like the community of the Catholic Church and I like Mass. My mother has not recieved communion since she married my father over 35 years ago as my father was divorce and technically still married in the eyes of the church. She is still Catholic. There is not a thing in my life, whether it be a religion, politic, work, hobbies or anything that I agree with completely. Doesn't mean I leave or don't participate.
Interesting post! I am what is referred to as a non-practicing Catholic. I do not attend Church, I do support abortion, am divorced (annulled) from my first husband, but still have some of the beliefs taught by the Catholic religion. Do I buy into everything the Church preaches? Heck no! Some of it is just plain hooey IMO. My BIL went to seminary for 8 years to become a priest and decided he could not be a good priest since he did not blindly believe everything the Church told him he should. He now practices the Byzantine Catholic religion and is an amazing and spiritual man. Kindness and love shine out of his eyes when you look at him or are conversing with him.
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post #9 of 18
2/19/09 at 6:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
If she truly is Catholic (as well as many other Catholic Congressmen and women), then she cannot be Pro-Choice. It is contrary to their doctrine, clearly. Catholics are very clear about their doctrine on social issues. Unlike other denominations they don't believe in grey areas!
If every Catholic left the church because they did not follow one of thier tenet the church would be decimated. The amount of Catholics alone that use birth control, which is banned by the church, would cause a mass exudus. I just don't buy the argument if you disagree with the church you cannot be a Catholic.
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post #10 of 18
2/19/09 at 7:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
Interesting post! I am what is referred to as a non-practicing Catholic. I do not attend Church, I do support abortion, am divorced (annulled) from my first husband, but still have some of the beliefs taught by the Catholic religion. Do I buy into everything the Church preaches? Heck no! Some of it is just plain hooey IMO. My BIL went to seminary for 8 years to become a priest and decided he could not be a good priest since he did not blindly believe everything the Church told him he should. He now practices the Byzantine Catholic religion and is an amazing and spiritual man. Kindness and love shine out of his eyes when you look at him or are conversing with him.

Yosemite, your BIL sounds like a true Christian, one that every Christian aspires to be. I don't know very much about the Byzantine Catholic religion.
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post #11 of 18
2/19/09 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Yosemite, your BIL sounds like a true Christian, one that every Christian aspires to be. I don't know very much about the Byzantine Catholic religion.
Cindy, he is truly amazing. I am in total awe of him I can tell you. I don't know a lot about the Byzantine Catholic religion either except that it is the old, original Catholic religion. This man does not have one mean or nasty bone in his whole body. His faith is unshakeable. Being around him is a joy and I feel blessed to be part of his life.
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post #12 of 18
2/19/09 at 8:29am
That is awesome Yosemite. Christians like your BIL give me renewed faith in humanity.
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post #13 of 18
2/19/09 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by peachytoday View Post
I most certainly can ignore the tenets I don't like and do. My choice. I like the community of the Catholic Church and I like Mass. My mother has not recieved communion since she married my father over 35 years ago as my father was divorce and technically still married in the eyes of the church. She is still Catholic. There is not a thing in my life, whether it be a religion, politic, work, hobbies or anything that I agree with completely. Doesn't mean I leave or don't participate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
Interesting post! I am what is referred to as a non-practicing Catholic. I do not attend Church, I do support abortion, am divorced (annulled) from my first husband, but still have some of the beliefs taught by the Catholic religion. Do I buy into everything the Church preaches? Heck no! Some of it is just plain hooey IMO. My BIL went to seminary for 8 years to become a priest and decided he could not be a good priest since he did not blindly believe everything the Church told him he should. He now practices the Byzantine Catholic religion and is an amazing and spiritual man. Kindness and love shine out of his eyes when you look at him or are conversing with him.
This is true for so many people. I don't consider myself very spiritual, but I still participate in church events because it's just what my family does, we all get together on certain holidays and go to church and it's nice, I enjoy it, but I do not believe in 70-80% of what the church teaches...Anyway, the point is, if you choose what to believe in, then technically you no longer can call yourself a member of that church, even if you participate because in order to participate you have to technically pretend like you believe in all of the things if that is the case. With my family, none of us discuss any of the religious stuff, so it doesn't feel wrong to me. But if I were to talk to someone who is a member of that church, it wouldn't feel right. It's just such a complicated situation! Because if not catholic, what would you call yourself? Some people clearly believe in the christian god but not everything the church teaches, so it just leaves them up in the air w/ nothing to call themselves.
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post #14 of 18
2/19/09 at 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
No offense meant toward any Catholic Democrats on the board, but this is one of those hypocritical things I just can't wrap my head around.

Organized religion, especially one with as much rigor and history as Catholicism, is pretty much a take it or leave it kind of thing. You can find a denomination that meets with most individual views - there are some who don't find birth control to be a sin, some that have no issue with gay marriage, some who see abortion as a gray area, and some that are even more rigid than Catholicism in all of those areas and more. But they are what they are. Their tenants are their tenants and you can't just ignore the ones you don't like. If she truly is Catholic (as well as many other Catholic Congressmen and women), then she cannot be Pro-Choice. It is contrary to their doctrine, clearly. Catholics are very clear about their doctrine on social issues. Unlike other denominations they don't believe in grey areas!
The Vatican/Pope may not believe in gray areas, but the Roman Catholic Church has a number of dissidents within its ranks, including clergymen and theologians, one of the most notable being Hans Küng, a Swiss priest and theologian who rejects the doctrine of papal infallibility.

The most recent example of a revolt against a Vatican decision was the widespread disapproval of the Pope's nomination of Gerhard Maria Wagner as the auxiliary bishop of Linz, Austria, which led to the nominee's withdrawal. http://www.austriantimes.at/index.php?id=11257&print=1

There's a fairly big difference between theory and practice, and Catholicism hasn't been a "take it or leave it kind of thing" at least since the Second Vatican Council in the early sixties.
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post #15 of 18
2/19/09 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
No offense meant toward any Catholic Democrats on the board, but this is one of those hypocritical things I just can't wrap my head around.

Organized religion, especially one with as much rigor and history as Catholicism, is pretty much a take it or leave it kind of thing. ...they are what they are. Their tenants are their tenants and you can't just ignore the ones you don't like. If she truly is Catholic (as well as many other Catholic Congressmen and women), then she cannot be Pro-Choice. It is contrary to their doctrine, clearly. Catholics are very clear about their doctrine on social issues. Unlike other denominations they don't believe in grey areas!
My best friend, who used to call herself a "lapsed-Catholic" agrees with this. She comes from a devout Catholic family and was deeply involved with her religion as a child.

Now, as an adult, she finds herself at odds with many of the tenets of the Church, and though it pains her, she no longer considers herself Catholic. She's a believer in God, she respects the Church, but cannot, in good conscience, attend that Church or call herself a Catholic.

She knows many other Catholics who pick and choose what teachings they will adher to, and which they won't. Her opinion, and I agree, is that these people may be practicing religion, but it isn't Catholicism.

The same applies to Pelosi. You can't be an "ardent" Catholic as she refers to herself, and support abortion.
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post #16 of 18
2/19/09 at 12:24pm
Are non-Catholics unfamiliar with the expression "Ã:censor: la carte Catholic"? It appears so from some posts here.
Agence France Presse: US 'a la carte' Catholics reject Vatican line
Quote:
US Catholics embrace their faith with passion, but many break with Vatican dogma when it comes to contraception, homosexuality and divorce, which some church analysts call "a la carte Catholicism."

"The paradox is that while (the pope) was enormously popular, he did not necessarily change behavior" among US Roman Catholics, said David Gibson, author of "The Coming Catholic Church."

While the pope held a firm position against contraception, for instance, a recent study by the Gallup Institute indicated that 78 percent of US Catholics favor both birth control pills and condoms.

Another study, by the University of Chicago, showed that even though most US Roman Catholics follow the Vatican in opposing abortion, some 38 percent believe that women should have abortion rights.

In addition, 39 percent have no problem with homosexuality, above the 33 percent of all Americans.
A la carte Catholics confess
Quote:
But the truth is that, these days, nearly all Roman Catholics are, as Basil Hume put it, "Ã:censor: la carte" rather than "table d'hôte". Even right-wing loyalists, while insisting on fidelity to the Holy See, ignore its naive strictures against capitalism and its opposition to the liberation of Iraq. And many of them also have suspiciously small families.

In a Western world bursting with consumer choice, not least in the realm of spirituality, the temptation to pick and mix is intense. Yet Catholicism, like Orthodox Judaism, sells itself as an all-in-one package complete with infuriatingly detailed operating instructions. It is a difficult faith for modern people to practise, and indeed they are giving it up in droves. Hence the significance of the fourth word in the title of Peter Stanford's fascinating anthology of essays, Why I Am Still a Catholic.
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post #17 of 18
2/19/09 at 3:48pm
I'm chuckling at the 'suspiciously small families' point!

There's even a book about this issue, for conflicted Catholics: http://www.amazon.com/Why-Disagree-R.../dp/0824514726

IMO Life is messy, and sometimes the right choice isn't always as plain as those living isolated lives in high places would have us believe.
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post #18 of 18
2/19/09 at 3:56pm
Even though I stopped practicing a long time ago I tend to agree with many of the Reformationists who stated (in one form or another) that the head, and only authority, of the Church aren't the Pope or clergy but rather the head of the church is Christ and the only authority is the Bible. Also, that believers should be free to maintain their own spiritual relationship with God.
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