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American Beheading - Page 4

post #91 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
The CIA?!?!? Now, THERE's a really reliable source for ya!!!
You seem to have missed this entire post. I was really hoping to get answers to some of those questions.

eta: And in the post you did reply too, you missed this one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
So, why aren't Christian murderers identified as such?
post #92 of 117
No, I didn't miss it. I ignored it.
post #93 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
No, I didn't miss it. I ignored it.
I guessed that to be the case. Because the only answer is a double standard favoring Christians, and I was fairly sure I'd never see that admitted here.
post #94 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
But, the Victim's Advocacy groups and Domestic abuse professionals in Buffalo do not agree. They see the case as domestic violence. What sets that case apart from the thousands of other domestic violence cases in the US?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Why does their being Muslim set it apart? Most domestic violence cases resulting in injury or death involve people with a history of domestic violence. Many domestic violence cases that result in injury or death come to a head after the other party made known their intentions to divorce or leave the relationship. How do we know that he saw her actions as "the final sin". We just saw where another case of domestic violence involved decapitation, so that's not really a unique factor. In fact, there are quite a few US domestic violence cases where it went far, far beyond decapitation. It doesn't appear to be an "honor killing" any more than any other domestic violence case. It simply seems that some people are in a hurry to slap the "honor killing" label on it in their zeal to promote their "us versus them" agendas.

You asked what set it apart and I told you. Why can't you accept the answer I gave, that is my answer, like it or lump it.
post #95 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
You asked what set it apart and I told you. Why can't you accept the answer I gave, that is my answer, like it or lump it.
Because the only part of the answer that doesn't apply to numerous other murders is the fact that the man is a Muslim. And seeing that used as a point of contention is a bit disappointing.
post #96 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
We just saw where another case of domestic violence involved decapitation, so that's not really a unique factor.
Wow, you talk about killing a woman by decapitation like it is an every day, usual occurance. Who knew it is just the norm, no big deal.

Silly me, I think this is a unique case.
post #97 of 117
I remember hearing of this awhile ago. It is really sad that any female should be subject to such things because of her religion, or w/e. I am in a Womens Studies class and i am really sad how messed up our society is. I dont think it is right for any religion to believe that someones life is not worthy and that you have a right to take it away...
post #98 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Wow, you talk about killing a woman by decapitation like it is an every day, usual occurance. Who knew it is just the norm, no big deal.

Silly me, I think this is a unique case.
Not everyday, but far from unique. In fact, I bumped this thread with a link to a murder by beheading by a non-Muslim ( )just this weekend. There have been many cases in the US of non-Muslims ( ) who greatly exceeded decapitation. Such as teeny, tiny pieces. Yet not one of those people are referred to as a (insert religious affiliation here) murderer or an "honor killer". Why not?

Here is a list of serial killers in the USA, with links to each one. Check out how many have a penchant for decapitation.
post #99 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Check out how many have a penchant for decapitation.
I counted TWO where dismemberment was specified. Berdella and Dahmer. And in one of those two for sure (Dahmer), decapitation occurred post-mortem.

And if you really followed all those links to find any more than those two, you really have too much time on your hands.
post #100 of 117
Thread Starter 
Extremist Islamic terrorist death of choice in front of an audience seems to be decapitation. Decapitation is an act that horrifies people, probably why they choose it.

Add that to the fact of the numerous "honor killings" of wives and daughters and sisters by extremists, many times Muslims, I don't think that it is unusual that people would think this Hassan case is a case of honor killing. I don't think that makes me a "Muslim basher" but if it make someone happy to call me that, whatever.

Nowhere did I say that it "honor killing" is a unique crime done only by Muslims.

Muslims can be criticized just like Christians can, they are not exempt from criticism, Christians aren't either.

I see Christians criticized on a regular basis, which is okay, Christians are sinners. My point being, when Christians are "bashed", it is a pretty PC thing to do and not many care. But, goodness me, criticize something a Muslim does and that is just not PC. Newsflash, anyone can be criticized, or "bashed".
post #101 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
I counted TWO where dismemberment was specified. Berdella and Dahmer. And in one of those two for sure (Dahmer), decapitation occurred post-mortem.
Which may very well also be the case here. She was stabbed multiple times before being decapitated, and they've yet to determine if the beheading was the cause of death.
post #102 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Extremist Islamic terrorist death of choice in front of an audience seems to be decapitation. Decapitation is an act that horrifies people, probably why they choose it.
I didn't know he was a terrorist. I don't think the police know that either.

Quote:
Add that to the fact of the numerous "honor killings" of wives and daughters and sisters by extremists, many times Muslims, I don't think that it is unusual that people would think this Hassan case is a case of honor killing. I don't think that makes me a "Muslim basher" but if it make someone happy to call me that, whatever.

Nowhere did I say that it "honor killing" is a unique crime done only by Muslims.

Muslims can be criticized just like Christians can, they are not exempt from criticism, Christians aren't either.

I see Christians criticized on a regular basis, which is okay, Christians are sinners. My point being, when Christians are "bashed", it is a pretty PC thing to do and not many care. But, goodness me, criticize something a Muslim does and that is just not PC. Newsflash, anyone can be criticized, or "bashed".
Actually, saying that Christians being "bashed" is PC is quite bogus. If that were the case, and it was indeed PC, then all the news outlets would be doing exactly what I was asking about them NOT doing. Applying a "bad Christians" label to everything. Yet, that is quite regularly overlooked by the media. Only the Muslims, Atheists and fringe faiths are singled out.

Other than that, all true. No one is above criticism. Which in all honesty, is why Christianity often gets criticized so much...because many of them refuse to acknowledge that. They disown other denominations and groups, make claims of insanity or "not real Christians", or invent new titles to cloak their true identities, such as "Republican" and "Loyalist" being used in Ireland so they don't have to admit that the Christians are killing each other wholesale again.

The beheading case may be an honor killing when it's all sorted out. Or they may find that it's domestic murder like any other, and he intended to claim that it was extremists or terrorists and he messed up too bad for his cover story. Or, he just lost his nerve.
post #103 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
No one is above criticism. Which in all honesty, is why Christianity often gets criticized so much...because many of them refuse to acknowledge that.
Seems to me it's the professed Christians here who've been most open to acknowledge that emphatically and repeatedly; I don't know how many times I've seen us post something along the lines of "Christians aren't any better than anyone else" yet still all I read in certain people's posts are about their nearly universal sanctimonious arrogance. Well, I've got news. You could take your text editor and do a search and replace on "Christians" replacing it with whatever belief/philosophy/life style/orientation you choose and the phrases would still ring true. Christians aren't any better or any worse than anyone else. Though, frankly, I think we'd be better off and better received if we lived DOWN to the image portrayed.

I'm really not this nasty in real life; it's just when I read the kind of one-track BS I read here over and over again I feel I'm obligated to get the pitchforks and shovels out and shovel some of it as best I can.
post #104 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Seems to me it's the professed Christians here who've been most open to acknowledge that emphatically and repeatedly; I don't know how many times I've seen us post something along the lines of "Christians aren't any better than anyone else" yet still all I read in certain people's posts are about their nearly universal sanctimonious arrogance. Well, I've got news. You could take your text editor and do a search and replace on "Christians" replacing it with whatever belief/philosophy/life style/orientation you choose and the phrases would still ring true. Christians aren't any better or any worse than anyone else. Though, frankly, I think we'd be better off and better received if we lived DOWN to the image portrayed.

I'm really not this nasty in real life; it's just when I read the kind of one-track BS I read here over and over again I feel I'm obligated to get the pitchforks and shovels out and shovel some of it as best I can.
Actually, you're doing that thing with words again, just as you do with "religion" and "faith". Mixing up "Christians" and "Christianity" for the sake of confusion. I didn't say Christians, I said Christianity;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
No one is above criticism. Which in all honesty, is why Christianity often gets criticized so much...because many of them refuse to acknowledge that.
You see, IMO, a professed Christian stating that they are no better and no worse than anyone else is no concession at all. In fact, to some people it would even be insulting, because feelings of low self-worth and self-condemnation seem to be required of Christians. And to be honest, there are a lot of people that don't see themselves that way. Most Christians seem to be required to address themselves as "sinners", to give credit for all their exploits, experience and luck to someone else, all the while accepting blame for all their failures, and insisting that the same applies to everyone of any and every other belief as well. That insistence of applying their supposed "sins" to everyone else in the world regardless of their faith, belief or religion does, to me, IMO, appear to be "sanctimonious arrogance".

Now, if we use that text editor with my actual word and say "Christianity isn't any better or any worse than anything else", would you still say it is holding true? If that is your honest opinion; that all religions are equal, then I owe you a most heartfelt apology.
post #105 of 117
This thread isn't about "Christianity" or Christian/Christianity bashing folks - it's about why this crime was labeled "honor killing" and the answer to that is very simple - the man who committed the crime was a Muslim. Mike brought the thread up again because of the Haitan folks involved in a beheading as an example and it was a perfect example. Nowhere was the Haitan crime called an honour killing. All Mike is saying, and I totally agree, is that if the man had not been a Muslim this crime would have been reported very simply as domestic violence regardless of whether he had been Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Anglican, ad nauseum.

That's not rocket science - it's not a point of Christianity bashing - it's fact! The man's religion was the only reason this crime was labeled "honor killing". That is the only point that was being made here IMO and it has been turned into a convoluted mess.

It really is very, very simple and even a child would be able to understand this point not that one would want to discuss a beheading with a child.
post #106 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
The man's religion was the only reason this crime was labeled "honor killing".
I don't have any reason to disagree with that. What I have reason to disagree with is Mike using every opportunity he can to cast a negative light on Christianity, so ask him why he resurrected the thread and why he convoluted the topic in the first place by bringing that in when it wasn't necessary nor to the topic. If you burned your mouth on a chocolate cookie because you didn't let it cool off after it came out of the oven would you have to bring up brownies, pizza and barbeque chicken?

Like you said.....it's a simple point.
post #107 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
I don't have any reason to disagree with that. What I have reason to disagree with is Mike using every opportunity he can to cast a negative light on Christianity, so ask him why he resurrected the thread and why he convoluted the topic in the first place by bringing that in when it wasn't necessary nor to the topic. If you burned your mouth on a chocolate cookie because you didn't let it cool off after it came out of the oven would you have to bring up brownies, pizza and barbeque chicken?

Like you said.....it's a simple point.
I don't see that at all - all Mike did was make the point that crimes perpetrated by Christians are not labelled merely because the person is a Christian. That's the truth! He resurrected the thread to prove a point - that one beheading was labeled "honour killing" and the other was not. The only difference was the one labeled honour killing was perpetrated by a Muslim and the other beheading was done by a Christian and was labeled domestic violence.

All Mike is doing is trying to defray the Christian bashing arguments by others as far as I can see.

Now I may be totally wrong but that's what I see.
post #108 of 117
There are other grusome acts of domestic violence that have happened since then as well - http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/28/....lawyer.slain/ - a husband stabs a wife (who was planning on filing for divorce) 38 times. The husband in this case also found the body - http://www.zimbio.com/Chiquita+Tate/...Prepares+Trial. This husband also had a history of domestic abuse - http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?s=9877693.

The similarities are chilling, but one garners lots of national media attention, and the other very little.
post #109 of 117
Thread Starter 
I went back and read my OP and the first page. I did not even bring up honor killing.

What made this news was the fact that the dude started this TV station to help remove stigma regarding Muslims. He was supposed to be this, fine, upstanding man getting an award from CAIR () and all, but all the while abusing his wife to the extent that the authorities are called multiple times.
post #110 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
I don't see that at all - all Mike did was make the point that crimes perpetrated by Christians are not labelled merely because the person is a Christian. That's the truth! He resurrected the thread to prove a point - that one beheading was labeled "honour killing" and the other was not. The only difference was the one labeled honour killing was perpetrated by a Muslim and the other beheading was done by a Christian and was labeled domestic violence.

All Mike is doing is trying to defray the Christian bashing arguments by others as far as I can see.

Now I may be totally wrong but that's what I see.
That indeed was the whole point. But to be honest, I suspected that the "bashing" thing would be used to try to derail the point. Any attempt to seek equal treatment for other religions seems to be condemned as "bashing". Apparently, "sharing the stage" doesn't figure into some people's ideas of tolerance. I was also almost certain that my last question would not get answered, but I asked anyway because I was curious as to whether it would be dodged or simply ignored. Apparently the answer would require too much honesty of one's self and might prove an embarrassment.
post #111 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I went back and read my OP and the first page. I did not even bring up honor killing.

What made this news was the fact that the dude started this TV station to help remove stigma regarding Muslims. He was supposed to be this, fine, upstanding man getting an award from CAIR () and all, but all the while abusing his wife to the extent that the authorities are called multiple times.
But just as Rahma said, there have been numerous cases of fine, upstanding men slaughtering their entire families, some would then kill themselves, some would not. There are Church deacons robbing banks. In NC, a father and step-mother tied their son to a tree, beat him a bit, and left him for two days to die. It made the news exactly once, and the only time their religion was mentioned was when it was reported that the funeral would be held in a Baptist church. I know that there are those that will see mentioning any of this as "bashing", but the point was and still is; why make a point of reporting one category, and routinely suppressing the other?
post #112 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
I don't have any reason to disagree with that. What I have reason to disagree with is Mike using every opportunity he can to cast a negative light on Christianity, so ask him why he resurrected the thread and why he convoluted the topic in the first place by bringing that in when it wasn't necessary nor to the topic. If you burned your mouth on a chocolate cookie because you didn't let it cool off after it came out of the oven would you have to bring up brownies, pizza and barbeque chicken?

Like you said.....it's a simple point.
If each religion is no better and no worse than any other, then why would asking for equal time and treatment for all of them be a "negative light"?
post #113 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
If each religion is no better and no worse than any other, then why would asking for equal time and treatment for all of them be a "negative light"?
Hey, you know you aren't going to get an answer for that except the reiteration that you are Christian bashing.

I completely understood this thread, why you resurrected it and even though I consider myself Christian, I did not see anything even remotely connected to "bashing". But then I also respect other religions and know that there are good and bad in each religion so the acts of one do not reflect the whole group. To paint such a negative picture of a particular faith by the act of one person because that one person practices that faith is the biased, prejudiced and, IMO, a case of total ignorance. By comparing these two stories you indeed proved that a person's religion dictates how a murder is reported by the media and accepted by the masses. That doesn't speak well for any of us whether we are Christian or not.
post #114 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
Hey, you know you aren't going to get an answer for that except the reiteration that you are Christian bashing.

I completely understood this thread, why you resurrected it and even though I consider myself Christian, I did not see anything even remotely connected to "bashing". But then I also respect other religions and know that there are good and bad in each religion so the acts of one do not reflect the whole group. To paint such a negative picture of a particular faith by the act of one person because that one person practices that faith is the biased, prejudiced and, IMO, a case of total ignorance. By comparing these two stories you indeed proved that a person's religion dictates how a murder is reported by the media and accepted by the masses. That doesn't speak well for any of us whether we are Christian or not.
Oh, I didn't expect an answer. No answer WAS the answer.

Thank you, I was really hoping that I was making at least a little sense. For clarity's sake, I realize that there are many, many bad Muslims in the form of extremists and terrorists. But one thing people should remember is, that if we see every, single Muslim in the news as being in the news because they did "something Muslim", then the terrorists are winning. People seeing a terrorist on every street corner, in every grocery store, and under every bed is exactly what the terrorists want.
post #115 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
Hey, you know you aren't going to get an answer for that except the reiteration that you are Christian bashing. .
Mike always poses these IF - THEN hypotheses where I can't agree with the IF part and so responding to the THEN part is pointless.
post #116 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Oh, I didn't expect an answer. No answer WAS the answer.

Thank you, I was really hoping that I was making at least a little sense. For clarity's sake, I realize that there are many, many bad Muslims in the form of extremists and terrorists. But one thing people should remember is, that if we see every, single Muslim in the news as being in the news because they did "something Muslim", then the terrorists are winning. People seeing a terrorist on every street corner, in every grocery store, and under every bed is exactly what the terrorists want.
I feel so bad for the good folks. Right after 9/11 our daughter had a young Turkish lad as a friend. The bigotry he had to endure just because he was Turkish and a Muslim astounded us and we lived in Canada. I cannot imagine what it would have been like for him in the US. In the sense you mention, yes the terrorists are winning - not the Muslims are winning, but the terrorists are winning.
post #117 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Mike always poses these IF - THEN hypotheses where I can't agree with the IF part and so responding to the THEN part is pointless.
Well gee whiz, the "you could take your text editor..." was YOUR suggestion, I simply borrowed it. And it's not pointless. It wrecks several of your arguments...that IS the point.
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