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LIARS - One and ALL

post #1 of 64
2/13/09 at 12:15pm
Thread Starter 
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=30697


I have to ask a stupid question. How can Congress vote on something they have not even seen?

But, just as important, why are the American people not allowed to see the final bill before the final bill, why the lies?

Where is the transparency?
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post #2 of 64
2/13/09 at 12:17pm
Thread Starter 
My brother was reading on Yahoo that Obama is now, not saying this Spending bill will create any jobs at ALL, Obama is now saying it will save some of the jobs that are left.
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post #3 of 64
2/13/09 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
My brother was reading on Yahoo that Obama is now, not saying this Spending bill will create any jobs at ALL, Obama is now saying it will save some of the jobs that are left.
The Congressional Budget Office has been saying all along, how can you gauge how many were created versus saved. Along with many economists,

I was watching C-Span online when John Boehner THREW the dang thing onto the fllor of the Senate. Press conference from him should be nice tonight. They're still talking there about it, vote at 5:30pm EST.

Proud to say at least one of NC's Democratic Congressmen saw the light and crossed the aisle to vote against this CRAPTASTIC mess. I listened to most of the 90 minute House debate online. 7 Dems voted against it, and one did the Obama thing and voted PRESENT

GWB got several mentions for causing this whole mess, along with his failed policies.

We still have hope in the Senate for a filibuster, Cindy. Gregg has officially said he's a NO, and supposedly he has a tiny bit of influence with Snowe and Collins. Although Reid supposedly had a deal with them to not have their votes read aloud, it's sounding like he's trolling for more R's to swing over. He better hope he can hang onto what he has, Teddy's gone back to FL and they need 61.
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post #4 of 64
2/13/09 at 1:00pm
Thread Starter 
It is pathetic to shove that thing through without anyone being able to look at any of the million pages.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090213/...gress_stimulus
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post #5 of 64
2/13/09 at 1:04pm
Quote:
The 1,071 page, 8-inch-thick measure combines $281 billion in tax cuts for individuals and businesses
That's a tad fewer than a million.
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post #6 of 64
2/13/09 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=30697


I have to ask a stupid question. How can Congress vote on something they have not even seen?

But, just as important, why are the American people not allowed to see the final bill before the final bill, why the lies?

Where is the transparency?
While I can appreciate your outrage this practice has been going on for a very long time. I did not start with this one. Ron Paul was trying to get a bill passed that would require the represenatives to read a bill after having less than a day to read it. In 2007 the omnibus spending bill was introduce on the floor at 4am giving legislatures only 4 hours to pass it, which they did. The Patriot Act was passed less than a day after it was introduced. So there is no need to yell, this is not new. You need to contact your represenative and get this practice changed.
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post #7 of 64
2/13/09 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by peachytoday View Post
While I can appreciate your outrage this practice has been going on for a very long time. I did not start with this one. Ron Paul was trying to get a bill passed that would require the represenatives to read a bill after having less than a day to read it. In 2007 the omnibus spending bill was introduce on the floor at 4am giving legislatures only 4 hours to pass it, which they did. The Patriot Act was passed less than a day after it was introduced. So there is no need to yell, this is not new. You need to contact your represenative and get this practice changed.

Truly excellent point. Addressing issues that may exist in Goverment procedures and protocols is one of the reasons we elect those people.
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post #8 of 64
2/13/09 at 1:20pm
Thread Starter 
My thing is, they promised, with this bill, that it would be posted for 48 hours before voting and they lied.

I heard ACORN is getting 2 billion, I am hoping that isn't true.
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post #9 of 64
2/13/09 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
My thing is, they promised, with this bill, that it would be posted for 48 hours before voting and they lied.

I heard ACORN is getting 2 billion, I am hoping that isn't true.
I think it was Pelosi herself made a specific point to say that this bill would be posted online in its entirety. BHO promised it would be posted on whitehouse.gov for 5 days for the public to view and comment on.

We knew they were liars.

RIP USA.
July 4, 1776 - Fri February 13, 2009
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post #10 of 64
2/13/09 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neetanddave View Post
I think it was Pelosi herself made a specific point to say that this bill would be posted online in its entirety. BHO promised it would be posted on whitehouse.gov for 5 days for the public to view and comment on.

We knew they were liars.

RIP USA.
July 4, 1776 - Fri February 13, 2009
All politicians are! It's the nature of the critter.

Wouldn't the date to RIP July 4, 1776 actually be July 5, 1776?
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post #11 of 64
2/13/09 at 6:03pm
In case anyone cares to see what their State or others asked for in the stimulus,

http://www.stimuluswatch.org/

Note that WV, home of the "king of pork" Sen. Robert Byrd, only had one item submitted.

Some highlights that people voted as "least necessary" were $99k in doorbells in MS, $500K for a dog park in CA, and $886k for a disc golf course in TX.
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post #12 of 64
2/13/09 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I have to ask a stupid question. How can Congress vote on something they have not even seen?
As has been noted already, this is standard operating procedure. The bills are just too big and too complex for any one person to read and understand. They have to depend on their aides to study it and explain it to them. And when it's rushed through like this, they don't have adequate time to do that.

And it's not just the Federal government, but our state governments (at least the one I'm familiar with) operate the same way. You should have heard one of our local legislators describe how they do business in the Wisconsin State Assembly. It's just ridiculous. No wonder bad legislation gets enacted into law.

I don't know about the White House website, but HR-1 HAS been posted on the House website for some time. I recall finding it, oh, I don't really remember, might have been week before last, when I was googling for something related. The problem has been posting the lastest revisions. That they haven't been able to do. The bill has been mutating on a daily basis. Trying to get someting that big that changes that often is just impossible. They were foolish to even promise it.
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post #13 of 64
2/13/09 at 7:35pm
The difference between good legislation and bad legislation is exactly the same as everything else in politics...a matter of perception.
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post #14 of 64
2/13/09 at 9:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by peachytoday View Post
So there is no need to yell, this is not new. You need to contact your represenative and get this practice changed.
Except that Obama promised not to do this, and to post a bill so the public could read it.

Do his promises mean nothing? Can't we hold him accountable when he breaks them? Is this the change his supporters expected? The House Republicans were even locked out of the conference committee.
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post #15 of 64
2/13/09 at 10:04pm
We're holding Presidents accountable again? When did that happen? I thought holding Presidents accountable fell out of vogue a couple of terms ago
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post #16 of 64
2/13/09 at 11:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
The difference between good legislation and bad legislation is exactly the same as everything else in politics...a matter of perception.
Oh, I thought it was how much pork, errrrrrr ... STIMULUS .... you brought home for your constituents.
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post #17 of 64
2/13/09 at 11:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
We're holding Presidents accountable again?
Trouble is, the accounting doesn't come for almost another four years. A lot can happen in that time. And a lot can be forgotten. And a lot can be covered up. A smart President gets all the dirty work out of the way in the first year.
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post #18 of 64
2/14/09 at 3:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Oh, I thought it was how much pork, errrrrrr ... STIMULUS .... you brought home for your constituents.
That's where perceptions come from
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post #19 of 64
2/14/09 at 10:31am
Who made the "Promise" - Obama or Pelosi - do you have a link?

It's just that the media is funny - well, even fickle - and I like to try and check out the facts before I jump on the Media Band Wagon ...

IMHO ... Pelosi has her own agenda - and Young, Inexperienced Obama will be taken to school by her. That's the problem with Inexperience - you can get your plans put in the ditch, or hijacked, if you don't know all the rules of the Political Game. Politics is an ugly game - and no one is having fun.
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post #20 of 64
2/14/09 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GloriaJH View Post
Who made the "Promise" - Obama or Pelosi - do you have a link?

It's just that the media is funny - well, even fickle - and I like to try and check out the facts before I jump on the Media Band Wagon ...

IMHO ... Pelosi has her own agenda - and Young, Inexperienced Obama will be taken to school with her. That's the problem with Inexperience - you can get your plans put in the ditch, or hijacked, if you don't know all the rules of the Political Game. Politics is an ugly game - and no one is having fun.
And I'm pretty certain that Obama is the only POTUS (or leader of any country for that matter) that has broken a promise.
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post #21 of 64
2/14/09 at 3:51pm
From the House...

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/crecord/09crpgs.html

Mr. LEWIS of California moves to instruct the managers on the part of the House that they shall not record their approval of the final conference agreement (as such term is used in clause 12(a)(4) of rule XXII of the Rules of the House of Representatives) unless the text of such agreement has been available to the managers in an electronic, searchable, and downloadable form for at least 48 hours prior to the time described in such clause.

The "out" they have is that it wasn't actually said to be available to the "public" but it wasn't even available to the House members 24 hours.

and from the POTUS


http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog_post/...efore_signing/

Since a few questions have come in, we want to update you on the President's campaign commitment to introducing more sunlight into the lawmaking process by posting non-emergency legislation online for five days before signing it. This policy will be implemented in full soon; currently we are working through implementation procedures and some initial issues with the congressional calendar.

The President remains committed to bringing more transparency to government, and in this spirit the White House will continue to publish legislation expected to come to his desk online for public comment as it moves through Congress


I'm guessing this was not "non-emergency" legislation.

That's technicalities, not transparency.
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post #22 of 64
2/14/09 at 4:28pm
And we all know campaign promises mean nothing, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5t8G...layer_embedded
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post #23 of 64
2/14/09 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neetanddave View Post
That's technicalities, not transparency.
It looks fine to me. If the entire bill were available online, few would actually read it anyway, but would simply run searches on the pages looking for words like "arts", "golf", "trails", "acorn" and etc to find something to gripe about.
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post #24 of 64
2/14/09 at 6:34pm
Lets see.............I remember a lot of people believing in "change"........and I said "oh you will GET change..........just not the kind of change you are led to believe, just wait and see".
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post #25 of 64
2/14/09 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neetanddave View Post
From the House...

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/crecord/09crpgs.html

Mr. LEWIS of California moves to instruct the managers on the part of the House that they shall not record their approval of the final conference agreement (as such term is used in clause 12(a)(4) of rule XXII of the Rules of the House of Representatives) unless the text of such agreement has been available to the managers in an electronic, searchable, and downloadable form for at least 48 hours prior to the time described in such clause.
That quote doesn't appear on the page you provided a link for.
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post #26 of 64
2/14/09 at 7:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
And I'm pretty certain that Obama is the only POTUS (or leader of any country for that matter) that has broken a promise.
So, am I to assume that anything Obama does is okay, whether it is lie, cheat, steal, whatever, because that is just what President's do, so whatever?

So, no one should say anything, he shouldn't be held accountable?

So, he can do know wrong?
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post #27 of 64
2/14/09 at 7:18pm
Thread Starter 
The biggest spending bill in the history of the world and it gets shoved through Congress and that is okay with people?
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post #28 of 64
2/14/09 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
So, am I to assume that anything Obama does is okay, whether it is lie, cheat, steal, whatever, because that is just what President's do, so whatever?

So, no one should say anything, he shouldn't be held accountable?

So, he can do know wrong?
Is that what I said? I must be getting old because I didn't think that is what I said at all! Interesting perception. And I'm sure he does know wrong since he seems to be a pretty educated man.
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post #29 of 64
2/14/09 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
So, am I to assume that anything Obama does is okay, whether it is lie, cheat, steal, whatever, because that is just what President's do, so whatever?

So, no one should say anything, he shouldn't be held accountable?

So, he can do know wrong?
Why does everyone insist that a President be held accountable? I thought we quit doing that 7 or 8 year ago
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post #30 of 64
2/14/09 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
The biggest spending bill in the history of the world and it gets shoved through Congress and that is okay with people?
No, it's not, and may be Obama's first big mistake. The thing about not posting on the internet is a triviality; probably not within his control. Posting something that huge with all the rapid changes is not easily done. But this ramming it through was exactly what was wrong with the original TARP bill, and now they've gone and done it again.
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