Chalk one up for genetic and stem cell research! - Page 2

No one is saying that researchers can't fully study embryonic stem cells, no has EVER said they CAN'T.

What people are against is the federally funded stem cell research,
people always seem to forget that part, don't they?

Actually, no! That was covered back here...

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...39&postcount=5

Nothing new there Skippy.

The private sector can fund the research.

Still doesn't change the fact that we constantly hear people saying and acting like stem cell research is against the law. It is not against the law.

I see what you're saying, and my heart goes out to children who are suffering. But, IMO, it's not right for science to deliberately create a human life only for the sake of destroying it to save another.

I've done some thinking about this, and I'm not sure how to feel about using left over embreyos from IFV for this. I know they weren't created to die, but they are the "unlucky" ones. The problem I have with that is they, to me, are STILL a human being with a soul and killing them on purpose, to me, is a sin. Of course, just throwing them away too is killing them.....so I'm torn on that one.

What I'm mainly concerned with it science creating more lives FOR THIS PURPOSE. Or, people going in for IVF and fertilizing 30 eggs knowing they are only going to use 2 or 3 and getting a substanial kickback or selling them outright for this.

I understand both sides of the arguement...my main hangup is when the embreyo becomes a person. For some, it isn't a person until it because a fetus, for other's it's not until it's born and breathed its first breath of air into it's lungs. For me, it's at the moment the sperm and egg meet and make nice. Yeah, it's the size of a pin head at that point, but it's still a human being. Like I said, that's just my opinion and I know others don't agree with me.

I'm not prepared to get into the issue of when that speck of life becomes human. I have neither enough science nor enough theology for that discussion. The thing for me is if an embryo created for one purpose and not used for that purpose is going to be discarded -- killed -- why not let it have some worthwhile purpose on its way. It seems to be that is a better honouring of life than to simply discard what's not needed for the original purpose.

I don't think I agree with creating embryos solely for the purpose of research, though.

And, I'm not asking for a debate on when a human is created. I simply stated that this is MY belief. I don't want or expect a debate on it because beliefs can't be debated...only argured and that doesn't change anything except make hard feelings. Please everyone, I'm not trying to start a debate about that!

I'm still on the fence about the IVF thing now. I agree, throwing them away is also killing them, but should there be limits on how many embryos can be made for each try? Normally, it's 2 or 3 that are transported...why no limit the amout to that number? If it was limited, the girl that had 8 implanted wouldn't have had that option and now be the mother of 15 or how ever many she has now.

My main concern is creating life for the purpose of killing it. That is what I'm afraid is going to happen, and once they purposely cross the line once, what stops them from doing it again?

I think you misunderstand me. I wasn't looking for a debate, either, because as I said I don't have the science or theology necessary for it. I merely wanted it clear to all and sundry -- not just you -- that my comments are not informed by any stand on when life begins, since I don't have one.

So what I am hearing is, you understand that your belief about life at the moment of conception is a belief, and that other people do not share the same belief, and that neither group could change the opinion of the others. Then I am hearing that despite all this, you still think the decisions should be made based on YOUR side of the belief- and that the people who do not see this as destruction of life should be out of luck as your belief system trumps theirs?
If that is what you are saying I vehemently disagree. I completly support your stance, and would never suggest that you personally participate in the development or use of any treatments that come from embryonic stem cell research, but why do you think you should be allowed to impose your beliefs and the limitations that come with on those who DONT feel the same way as you? I am truly curious about this. As for privately funded stem cell research, sure its legal, but not worth the money to the private system, and it is illegal to harvest oocytes from women for the explicit creation of embryos for research (see Canadas Assited Reproduction Act for example, which states that embryos must not be created or cloned for "any purpose other than creating a human being or improving or providing instruction in assisted reproduction procedures.") so the main reagent (embryos) is not there for the private system to invest in anyways. Nevermind that publicly funded research is the type of research that brings true basic knowledge on a scientific topic, or that publicly funded research generally benefits the public and not the private industry alone. Or nevermind that there are tens of thousands more publicly funded researchers than privately funded ones. I can go on, but I think everyone knows of the dangers of allowing Big Pharma companies to be the only ones doing research on something - now theres your potential for technology abuse.
To address one other point I have come across in this thread:
FETAL stem cells are not the same as embryonic stem cells, so any reference to fetal stem cells is invalid in a discussion on embryonic stem cells.

Wow....ummm...please tell me exactly where I said that the rest of the world should agree with me? I actually went back and reread my posts and I think all except the last stated this was my feeling or "IMO". That is just what I believe, and I'm allowed to have that belief.

My last post was to Rapunzel47 and I DIDN'T say "IMO" because I think we were on the same page, I just expressed it wrong.

I don't understand how I imposed my beliefs on anyone. Why...because I actually spoke of a "religious" belief"??? If you can find anything I said that attacked anyone, please point it out to me. I was just stating "this is how I feel, I understand other people don't feel the same way". Why is that wrong? So, I don't agree with you now I'm the bad guy?

This is IMO forum, so if you don't like someone agreeing with you that's fine, we'll debate. But I don't agree with attacking someone just because you don't agree with their basic beliefs. And this is basically a non-debatable issue because people that have strong beliefs (one way or the other) probably aren't going to have their mind changed. And, just for the record, that Is In My Opinon.

So I have been misunderstanding you, and I do not think I have been attacking. I quoted your post where you stated the belief, and then stated how you disagree the research should be allowed because it amounts to creating life simply to kill it. Please clarify your position for me: are you saying you are ok with embryonic stem cell research taking place because you understand that many people believe in it and need the treatments, and that you personally choose to disagree and would abstain from such therapies, or are you saying because you and others are so uncomfortable with it, it should be banned and not occur? I am just unsure no matter how many times I read your post, given your last response (I apologize I assumed it was the latter option in my previous post, based on many things you and other who are against it had said previously.)
I am hearing your posts as you saying the research *should* be banned because of your feelings, and really just want you to clarify what you mean. Please dont feel attacked, and understand that on my side (where we dont believe that an embryo is a full human life), it is very difficult to piece together what you are saying. My point is simply that the research and the production of embryos should NOT be banned because SOME people think it is the destruction of life.

Ummm....that IS my personal position, and I think you just summed it up pretty well. That is just me. I DON'T agree with it. And if you check the quote, I is MY belief...as IN MY OPINION " I never said the rest of the world or MY COUNTRY had to agree with me. I also don't like the color brown, but I'm not going to protest because other people like it. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Yes, that is my opinion, and I have a right to it. Will I vote for representatives that agree with my beliefs and not vote for those that don't? Absolutely. Do I really think anyone will care about how I feel when it comes to passing laws?? Not really, but at least I'm doing my part to try to get like minded people in office. And that also, is my right.

Ok, you want a black and white answer...I am personally against embryoic stem cell research. Do I expect others to agree or have I "imposed my views" on anyone here? No. Except for the simple fact that I mentioned my own personal beliefs. It's still a free country, right?

I have my beliefs, you have yours. Let's agree to disagree on this point. Like I said, we can't debate something like this because there isn't a way to win on either side.

Februa - Isn't that the entire point of the "IMO" threads, for people to debate their beliefs, opinions, etc. on a topic? Everyone has their own opinions and calico was certainly not shoving hers down anyone's throat. She was simply stating her take on the issue.

And, don't confuse me with other people in the forum. I am my own person and think my own thoughts. Reread my posts.

Im sorry I still dont see how I attacked or said your view was not ok???
Please show me. I merely made an interpretation and asked you to clarify. you were insulted at my interpretation. I apologized for it,but you are still acting very defensive and have not answered my questions. I certainly respect your opinion and still do not see where I did not do so, or attempt to push MY views down your throat. I do not appreciate your accusations or your hostility, especially given your demand for respect. Please respect me as well.

Yes - please show me my mistake or where I indicated I did not realize this.

I'm not going to get into a petty argument about who said what. I just think we all need to be careful about how we're wording things. It is difficult to understand someones tone through a computer. While this is a place to debate/argue it's still important not to put anyone down or attack anyone or their beliefs on a personal level, intentionally or otherwise.

I've debated about replying to this for a few days, but it's been eating at me, so here I go.

First of all, if I seemed defensive, I'm sorry. But I did feel like I was being attacked. It very well may have been things didn't come out right on both sides (gotta love foums ). So lets start again.

Ok, to answer your question. My personal belief is embryos created for the sake of killing them is wrong. That is my belief and I don't expect anyone else to agree with me. This is a non-issue because you aren't going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours.

The left over embryos from IVF, I am still on the fence with in my mind. That is something I have to figure out on my own.

Would I wish the rest of the world agreed with me? Yes! Doesn't everyone? But wouldn't that make for a boring word and no use for IMO forum?

Am I saying research shouldn't be done? I'm simply stating what I believe and I will try to elect officials that share my beliefs. After that it is out of my hands. I'm only 1 person in a world of billions so I really don't count much in the long run...I only have to myself and have to stand up for what I believe.

Hopefully, that is a good enough answer for you.