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Breeding: How To Start Off?  

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
After a long time of contemplating this, I have decided that I want to breed doll-faced Persians. The problem however, (as with any breed) is that I don't know where or how to start off. All of the best breeders with the highest quality cats have a spay/neuter contract! So what am I supposed to do? I have yet to find a cattery/breeder who will allow me to breed my kitten. Could you breeders please offer any advice or sugestions you may have? How did you get started with your breeding? Thanks!
post #2 of 29
Hi there

As a breeder of Persians/Exotics myself it's highly unlikely that many breeders will want to sell you a cat so you can destroy everything they've tried to achieve with the standard. Since long nosed Persians [I refuse to call them doll faced] don't meet the standard they will not be successful in the show ring so I believe people that breed them are just trying to make money.

You can't get into breeding cats over night - you must prove yourself to a lot of people that you have a love of the breed. A good way to start off is showing a desexed cat and then you need to get comfortable enough to make some breeder friends so you can buy some stock but I don't condone breeding Persians with long noses.
post #3 of 29
Agree 100% with Wellington. The purpose of breeding purebred cats is to improve the breed and to breed to the written standard. Its also ideal to be showing your cats too.

Because "doll-faced" Persians are not a legit breed that is recognized to be shown (yes they are Persians and can be registered), then it makes no sense to really be breeding them.

You cannot show them, they are basically pet quality Persians and should not be bred. Just because you don't like the written standard for a bred, doesn't mean you go off and decided to breed cats YOU like. The breed councils decide the breed standard.

You can find a lot of breeders on the net that are breeding pet quality Persians and who would be willing to hand you breeding cats. But why would you want to become another "backyard pet quality cat breeder"?
post #4 of 29
Thread Starter 
Well, this is the type I would like to breed - Doll-faced Persians. The modern pug-nosed Persians frequently have breathing problems because they barely even have a nose. Trust me, I have researched this intensely and I am truly convinced that doll-faces are the way to go. Flat-faced Persians are simply in style with the judges right now; the Persian originally had the traditional doll-face. If more people would breed these cats, they could come into style again in the show ring. They are much prettier and much healthier, no doubt about it.
post #5 of 29
The longer nosed Persians will NOT be shown because the judges would disqualify them in the show ring for not meeting the standard. You would have to work with the Breed Council to get any changes in the standard and you won't have any luck in doing so.

Like I said YOU may not like the Persian look, but all you are doing is creating expensive pet quality kittens - not improving or breeding to the standard. Sorry if this is not what you want to hear, but its the truth.

CFA, ACFA, and TICA have the SAME written standard for Persians. Only show quality cats should be bred - pet quality cats are neutered and spayed.
post #6 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrDazl View Post
Well, this is the type I would like to breed - Doll-faced Persians. The modern pug-nosed Persians frequently have breathing problems because they barely even have a nose. Trust me, I have researched this intensely and I am truly convinced that doll-faces are the way to go. Flat-faced Persians are simply in style with the judges right now; the Persian originally had the traditional doll-face. If more people would breed these cats, they could come into style again in the show ring. They are much prettier and much healthier, no doubt about it.
I've been breeding Persians for 11 years and I can honestly tell you if you have researched your lines/know enough about Persians and have hand picked your stock you WILL NOT have breathing problems. My cats have short noses with HUGE nostrils and big open faces.

My Nana who has been breeding Persians for 50+ years can tell about the "Traditional doll face" cats who in those days had jaw problems [yes an overshot jaw once was preferred], gutters by their eyes and noses that used to become infected if they weren't cleaned properly and multiple other things.

As a judge, the junior president of the Wellington Cat Club and a committee member of the Pedigree Persian cat club I can tell you these will not come back into "fashion" and it's in " " because I don't believe in fashions in breeding programmes.
post #7 of 29
Thread Starter 
[quote=WellingtonCats;2555196]
My Nana who has been breeding Persians for 50+ years can tell about the "Traditional doll face" cats who in those days had jaw problems [yes an overshot jaw once was preferred], gutters by their eyes and noses that used to become infected if they weren't cleaned properly and multiple other things.

High-quality doll-faced Persians do not have these problems. Flat-faced ones have a lot more health problems in general. That type is overbred, and that's why we have so many sick pug-noses in kitty mills and petstores. Doll-faces need a chance to prove themselves to the cat world. [i][b]They] are the true, original Persians and always will be!
post #8 of 29
I don't really know what to recommend. I don't know enough about the Persian history. To breed not for the standard is going to be the most difficult way to start. I personally do not recommend it.

Have you attended cat shows and looked at other longhaired breeds? Why did you decide on the Persian?
post #9 of 29
Sorry but there are no "high quality" doll-faced Persians. Why don't you understand thay are nothing more then pet quality Persians who will never be shown?

Take a look at reputable Persian breeders and notice how many of their cats are either champions or grand champions. If you can't even get a championship title on your cat, then it should NOT be bred. End of story.
post #10 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitytize View Post
I don't really know what to recommend. I don't know enough about the Persian history. To breed not for the standard is going to be the most difficult way to start. I personally do not recommend it.

Have you attended cat shows and looked at other longhaired breeds? Why did you decide on the Persian?
Well, I love Persians, but I don't want to condone the unhealthy flat-faced type. Doll-faces have the EXACT same traits as the flat-faces, with the exception of the longer nose: noses that are much more attractive and healthy.
post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Sorry but there are no "high quality" doll-faced Persians. Why don't you understand thay are nothing more then pet quality Persians who will never be shown?

Take a look at reputable Persian breeders and notice how many of their cats are either champions or grand champions. If you can't even get a championship title on your cat, then it should NOT be bred. End of story.
No, it certainly is not the end of story! LOL Doll-faces have the EXACT same traits as the peke-faced one, with the exception of the longer and more attractive nose. Besides, what about all those many people who love Persians, but don't like the peked-look and the health problems that often come with it? Shouldn't they have the option to get the cat of their dreams? Just because judges have changed the breed standards, doesn't mean that they are healthy or best for the breed. Persians would be much better off if they were all doll-faces. Yes, there is such a thing as a high-quality doll-face Persian. High quality is the result of striving for a certain look, as long as it doesn't interfere with the cat's health and accomplishing it. Breeders of the flat-faces have done just the opposite; they have compromised on the kitties' health just to get snub-noses (which aren't even attractive) to get championships. That is NOT quality. I understand what you're saying; I just don't agree with it.
post #12 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrDazl View Post
No, it certainly is not the end of story! LOL Doll-faces have the EXACT same traits as the peke-faced one, with the exception of the longer and more attractive nose. Besides, what about all those many people who love Persians, but don't like the peked-look and the health problems that often come with it? Shouldn't they have the option to get the cat of their dreams? Just because judges have changed the breed standards, doesn't mean that they are healthy or best for the breed. Persians would be much better off if they were all doll-faces. Yes, there is such a thing as a high-quality doll-face Persian. High quality is the result of striving for a certain look, as long as it doesn't interfere with the cat's health and accomplishing it. Breeders of the flat-faces have done just the opposite; they have compromised on the kitties' health just to get snub-noses (which aren't even attractive) to get championships. That is NOT quality. I understand what you're saying; I just don't agree with it.
How many Persians have you owned?
How many years have you been breeding cats for?

You came on here to ask why someone will not sell you a kitten - I think you have your answer.
post #13 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats View Post
How many Persians have you owned?
How many years have you been breeding cats for?

You came on here to ask why someone will not sell you a kitten - I think you have your answer.
I have actually had 2 of the peke-faced Persians! They were both from one of the most "reputable" breeders, and my family experienced nothing but heartache. We had to find homes for the kitties because they spread ringworm to everyone, had the WORST tear stains and sinus problems. It was not an enjoyable experience at all; but on the bright side, I have owned cats for 10 years (non-pedigrees, a Manx, and a Siamese) and loved every minute of it! I know my cats, trust me. Also, it's not that nobody will sell me a cat, I just haven't found one that I want yet. It just seems like most of the best doll-faced breeders have the spay/neuter contract.
post #14 of 29
Reputable breeders sell their pets either already altered or with a spay/neuter contract. Breeding cats must be purchased as breeding cats, and with that comes a much higher price tag. Not just the purchase price of the cat, but the time and money that must be invested in order to establish credibility in the cat fancy. I hope you were not planning on purchasing a cat as pet just to turn around and breed it later!

I frankly think there is only way the Doll Faced Persians could ever come back in "style" in the showhall. Doll Faced Persian breeders must go through the process of getting their cats accepted as new breed. As a new breed, they cannot be disqualified for their long noses. The process of getting a new breed accepted is time consuming and costly. Most BYB's do not even attempt it, because they are all about the bottom line of selling as many kittens as they can for the smallest investment possible.
post #15 of 29
ALL reputable breeders have a spay/neuter contract, if there is a specific breeder you would like kittens with breeding rights from I would suggest that you email them explaining your reasons for: wanting to breed, wanting to breed with their cats, breeding ethics, etc. and see what they say. If there are more than one or two catteries you would like to have kittens from/work with, chances are that one of them may be willing to work with a new breeder, given that you have the same ethics etc., though I'm sure any breeder worth their weight would not just hand over kittens for breeding without getting to know someone first.
post #16 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shambles View Post
I would suggest that you email them explaining your reasons for: wanting to breed, wanting to breed with their cats, breeding ethics, etc. and see what they say.
You can't just shop around for someone who doesn't have a spay contract and then breed from the cat, you need to buy a cat specifically for breeding.

Regardless of breed, the best way to get into breeding is starting with a show alter and then making contacts.

If you're looking for a long hair with a nose, perhaps look into Birmans or Raggies, that way you can produce quality kittens true to type, not just pets producing pets.
post #17 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrDazl View Post
I have actually had 2 of the peke-faced Persians! They were both from one of the most "reputable" breeders, and my family experienced nothing but heartache. We had to find homes for the kitties because they spread ringworm to everyone, had the WORST tear stains and sinus problems. It was not an enjoyable experience at all; but on the bright side, I have owned cats for 10 years (non-pedigrees, a Manx, and a Siamese) and loved every minute of it! I know my cats, trust me. Also, it's not that nobody will sell me a cat, I just haven't found one that I want yet. It just seems like most of the best doll-faced breeders have the spay/neuter contract.
Ok... Take the ringworm out of the equation please - there is nothing to do with the cats breed... Actually, I would delete this whole post... I am sorry, but this one really ticked me the wrong way - If you have that much love for cats and persians, you should never given up your kitties due to ringworm, tear stains and sinuses. Also: You had 2 Persians, and you ended up giving them away - if the Doll Faces are exactly the same, minus the flat nose, why are you breeding them, since the best luck you ever had was with the muggies? Persians are clearly overbred, and the most common pure breed to end up in shelters - why do you want to add to that problem?
The fact that you had cats for ten years doesn't really mean anything - I have had cats since I was born - 34 yr, and I tell you that only now I am learning about proper cat care. It feels pretty much as these are my first two kitties.
I am sorry, but for that website you showed me, the only reason why I can see you wanting to breed is for the money. $3,000 per kitty can be quite tempting. However - never forget you gave up the persians you had because of minor health issues - Beeders go through many disappointments and heartbreaks, and they keep going because it is pretty much their calling; not their hobby.
I feel bad saying this, because I would love to breed Ragdolls, especially white, but there is no way I can put in what it takes right now - maybe that's what I am going to do when I retire. Maybe you should rethink this idea, IMO.
post #18 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinalima View Post
Ok... Take the ringworm out of the equation please - there is nothing to do with the cats breed... Actually, I would delete this whole post... I am sorry, but this one really ticked me the wrong way - If you have that much love for cats and persians, you should never given up your kitties due to ringworm, tear stains and sinuses. Also: You had 2 Persians, and you ended up giving them away - if the Doll Faces are exactly the same, minus the flat nose, why are you breeding them, since the best luck you ever had was with the muggies? Persians are clearly overbred, and the most common pure breed to end up in shelters - why do you want to add to that problem?
I read that post and was amazed that you would expect a breeder to hand over a kitten to you when you gave two up for minor and treatable health issues. Then again, a BYB producing disfigured kittens just might be willing to give your your kitten.
post #19 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteforest View Post
I read that post and was amazed that you would expect a breeder to hand over a kitten to you when you gave two up for minor and treatable health issues. Then again, a BYB producing disfigured kittens just might be willing to give your your kitten.
Well, actually everyone, that was my mother who gave the kitties, Gracie and Sophie, away when I was just a kid. We also had litterbox troubles and my mom, who doesn't exactly love cats like I do, couldn't deal with all the problems. I probably would not have rehomed them, but it was she who had them, not I.
post #20 of 29
There's no need to take that tone with us! You asked for advice from professionals, and now you are getting it. You also volunteered that you gave up the cats, and never told us that it was during your childhood when you did not have control over the situation.

Breeding cats is a hobby. There is no money in it, because anything you make is put right back into caring for your cats. Think long and hard about what you wish to accomplish by breeding cats. If $$$ factor into the equation, run the other way. There is no real money in breeding.
post #21 of 29
To expand on Ferris's comment re money/breeding. If you are not breeding to the written standard and not showing your cats, then the only reason left is you are breeding to sell kittens and MAKE MONEY. Which puts you in immediately into the backyard breeder catagory.
post #22 of 29
I agree in part with what Martice said, but to be fair, there are some very reputable, top notch breeders who don't show. However their cats are in the showhall, being shown by other breeders who purchased them.
post #23 of 29
Nial that may be true (if its a health issue involved) but 95% of reputable breeders do get out there and show their cats. It would be the exception. I'm sure those breeders did show at one time. I don't see how you can not show and still breed to the standard and know what is out there.
post #24 of 29
Some people might simply not agree with a certain breed standard or with the interpretation of a certain breed standard. When I look at old Persians pics they still have gorgeous type, ear set and shape, great eye colour, coat, etc, etc. They also have short noses compared to other cat breeds. (for example, cat of the year 1960 and 1961, Shawnee Moonflight, I see nothing wrong with that cat) The only thing that is really different is that the nose and muzzle have dramatically changed shape in the last decades.
I could see the Persian going the way of the Siamese, where you have the Siamese and the Thai. You could likewise get the "modern" Persian and the Traditional Persian with the nose and muzzle they had several decades ago.
I know there is a group of breeders here in Europe who are seriously working together on this.

I know a Persian with such a flat face that there is no room for his tongue in his mouth so it's hanging out all the time. I know about several Persians who have had to have their nostrils surgically widened, and others who also have breathing problems and require constant medicating. You also see a certain kind of entropion that has to do with the shape of the face and malocclusions. IMO putting too much emphasis on looks and shows promotes this kind of thing, you get trends towards the extreme, and because breeding is not wholly predictable there will be cats that get a little too extreme. We do not see them in the showhall, but that doesn't mean it isn't an issue and that people who would rather not go to the extremes the current standard (or interpretation of the standard) promotes are doing a bad thing.

If you want to know what's out there you can still visit a show without showing your own cats. In the case of a breed that is rare or isn't shown at all you need to use our network and visit other breeders to see their cats, talk to judges at other places than shows, become active for a breed club, etc.
My Somali doesn't like showing so I won't show him, it's not such a popular breed here so even though I visit shows I never see many Somali's there. But I do work for my breed club and the cat association, go to every seminar I can, visit breeders, have set up a local group for owners of my favorite breed to have tea every now and then so we can see each other's cats in the home, and I speak to judges too.
As a show steward you can get a lot of information too (at least in our show system where you sit with someone judging a certain breed or breeds).
post #25 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa View Post
Some people might simply not agree with a certain breed standard or with the interpretation of a certain breed standard. When I look at old Persians pics they still have gorgeous type, ear set and shape, great eye colour, coat, etc, etc. They also have short noses compared to other cat breeds. (for example, cat of the year 1960 and 1961, Shawnee Moonflight, I see nothing wrong with that cat) The only thing that is really different is that the nose and muzzle have dramatically changed shape in the last decades.
I could see the Persian going the way of the Siamese, where you have the Siamese and the Thai. You could likewise get the "modern" Persian and the Traditional Persian with the nose and muzzle they had several decades ago.
I know there is a group of breeders here in Europe who are seriously working together on this.

I know a Persian with such a flat face that there is no room for his tongue in his mouth so it's hanging out all the time. I know about several Persians who have had to have their nostrils surgically widened, and others who also have breathing problems and require constant medicating. You also see a certain kind of entropion that has to do with the shape of the face and malocclusions. IMO putting too much emphasis on looks and shows promotes this kind of thing, you get trends towards the extreme, and because breeding is not wholly predictable there will be cats that get a little too extreme. We do not see them in the showhall, but that doesn't mean it isn't an issue and that people who would rather not go to the extremes the current standard (or interpretation of the standard) promotes are doing a bad thing.

If you want to know what's out there you can still visit a show without showing your own cats. In the case of a breed that is rare or isn't shown at all you need to use our network and visit other breeders to see their cats, talk to judges at other places than shows, become active for a breed club, etc.
My Somali doesn't like showing so I won't show him, it's not such a popular breed here so even though I visit shows I never see many Somali's there. But I do work for my breed club and the cat association, go to every seminar I can, visit breeders, have set up a local group for owners of my favorite breed to have tea every now and then so we can see each other's cats in the home, and I speak to judges too.
As a show steward you can get a lot of information too (at least in our show system where you sit with someone judging a certain breed or breeds).
That us completely how I feel about breeding doll-faces. There is definitely nothing wrong with breeding the traditional Persians just because it's different. It's a similar scenario as with Siameses; some breed the modern show type, others breed traditional apple faces, but neither of them are wrong or bad. I was also thinking that it would be a wonderful idea if some of us breeders who love the doll-face Persians tried to get them their own registry, set apart from the peke-faced Persians. Now wouldn't that be something interesting to try to endeavor....
post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa View Post
Some people might simply not agree with a certain breed standard or with the interpretation of a certain breed standard. When I look at old Persians pics they still have gorgeous type, ear set and shape, great eye colour, coat, etc, etc. They also have short noses compared to other cat breeds. (for example, cat of the year 1960 and 1961, Shawnee Moonflight, I see nothing wrong with that cat) The only thing that is really different is that the nose and muzzle have dramatically changed shape in the last decades.
I could see the Persian going the way of the Siamese, where you have the Siamese and the Thai. You could likewise get the "modern" Persian and the Traditional Persian with the nose and muzzle they had several decades ago.
I know there is a group of breeders here in Europe who are seriously working together on this.

I know a Persian with such a flat face that there is no room for his tongue in his mouth so it's hanging out all the time. I know about several Persians who have had to have their nostrils surgically widened, and others who also have breathing problems and require constant medicating. You also see a certain kind of entropion that has to do with the shape of the face and malocclusions. IMO putting too much emphasis on looks and shows promotes this kind of thing, you get trends towards the extreme, and because breeding is not wholly predictable there will be cats that get a little too extreme. We do not see them in the showhall, but that doesn't mean it isn't an issue and that people who would rather not go to the extremes the current standard (or interpretation of the standard) promotes are doing a bad thing.

If you want to know what's out there you can still visit a show without showing your own cats. In the case of a breed that is rare or isn't shown at all you need to use our network and visit other breeders to see their cats, talk to judges at other places than shows, become active for a breed club, etc.
My Somali doesn't like showing so I won't show him, it's not such a popular breed here so even though I visit shows I never see many Somali's there. But I do work for my breed club and the cat association, go to every seminar I can, visit breeders, have set up a local group for owners of my favorite breed to have tea every now and then so we can see each other's cats in the home, and I speak to judges too.
As a show steward you can get a lot of information too (at least in our show system where you sit with someone judging a certain breed or breeds).
Actually that's not quite correct more then that has changed in the Persians - they have different coat textures now back then they were a lot thicker, they also had a lot more problems associated with their health - jaw problems due to different "fashions" being popular in the 60's/70's. I think it's hard to comment on such cats when you weren't breeding them or owning one. Of course I didn't but my Grandparents did.
post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrDazl View Post
That us completely how I feel about breeding doll-faces. There is definitely nothing wrong with breeding the traditional Persians just because it's different. It's a similar scenario as with Siameses; some breed the modern show type, others breed traditional apple faces, but neither of them are wrong or bad. I was also thinking that it would be a wonderful idea if some of us breeders who love the doll-face Persians tried to get them their own registry, set apart from the peke-faced Persians. Now wouldn't that be something interesting to try to endeavor....
Good luck with that - I would buy an airfare to the States and fight that tooth and nail!
post #28 of 29
To be completely honest StarrDazl I think you are just posting to try and justify your desire to breed "Designer" kittens under the guise of "no I really want these cats to be a standard, look at how responsible I am". I think you realize beyond a shadow of a doubt that what you want to do is considered back yard breeding to the rest of the reputable breeding world and you don't want that label.

When I look at that Website all I see is the phrase "a fool and his money are soon parted". Those cats are bred for one purpose and one purpose only. TO MAKE MONEY. They are not bred to better any standard, they are not bred to even try to fight the good fight and get them included in the registry. They are bred because some rich executive wants his precious daughter to have a cute tiny cat.

I have no doubt that you will eventually get your hands on a breeding kitten of your choice, all backyard breeders do somehow, that's why there are so many of them. You will most likely never get one from the successful BYB's because you to them are competition in the "Designer" cat world. They don't breed to better anything but their own pocketbooks and why would they share in that little pot of gold they have cornered.
post #29 of 29
This thread has been edited to remove references to specific breeders as that is not allowed on TCS. Detrimental comments about a breeder can be considered slander and could cause legal issues for the site owner. Please refrain from "naming names".

Also, if you see a potential problem with a post, please report the post instead of posting to the thread. If you are not sure how to report a post, please see this thread:

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=185265

As this dicussion seems to have run its course and the comments are now getting a bit personal, I am now closing this thread.
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