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Dog Breeders

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
My in-laws are getting a purebred Golden Retriever this spring. I've helped them by passing along information on how to find a good breeder, be sure there is a health guarantee, the parents are tested for common diseases and disorders, they're titled dogs, etc. They've found one that they really like, but the breeder has told my MIL that she cannot have a female spayed before 9 months, or a male neutered before 1 year....and to not listen to anything their vet says about this. Is this normal??

Additionally, I'm concerned that if she went ahead with speutering at 6 months that it would make the health guarantee in the contract null and void.

Thanks in advance!
post #2 of 22
everyone has their opinion on when to spay and neuter.. a few people believe that it should be done after the animal has reached sexual maturity... there are a few studies that claim they are less prone to certain bone cancers and growth problems if done later.. most believe around 6 months is best.. and some breeders will spay and neuter pet puppies before they go to their new homes... before sexual maturity prevents cancers of mammary and sex organs.

Personally I do like pediatric s/n.. it does assure that the animal wont be bred.. but I also think the owner should do a little research and decide for themselves when they feel the dog should be spayed and neutered.. as long as they are responsible enough to prevent a litter!

If she doesnt agree with what the breeder is telling her, then she should look elsewhere. Some breeders are very picky on what they want done to the pups.. my vet told me that one client had just gotton a Weim puppy, and the health contract is even specific on what type of vaccines, brand of food, etc! Not all dog breeders are this picky.. and I personally think that's insane to tell someone what brand of food to feed! The contract on my Crested was basic.. he was not to be bred, I was to neuter him, and I would recieve his (limited) AKC papers upon proof of neuter.. I also was not to sell him to a petshop, breeder, or broker, or turn him over to a shelter or rescue.. if I couldnt keep him, he was to go back to the breeder. He had a 2 year health guarantee on genetic illness.. there was nothing that voided the contract either! However if I did not uphold my end of the contract, I could be sued for breach of contract.

The golden club is a good resource to get referrals.. http://www.grca.org/
post #3 of 22
Thread Starter 
The problem is that she is being hasty about getting a puppy, IMO. This breeder may have one from her current litter, and so my MIL is in the "I want it now" mode. Mind, she's only been officially looking for a week now. I am trying to persuade her to look at the other breeders that have puppies due this month. But at the end of the day it's her decision. I've just never heard of a breeder selling a "pet" puppy and not wanting it done until it's a year old. All of the breeders that I've contacted for myself, Aussies and Border Collies, want them done sooner than later to ensure they aren't being bred.

You can see why I think she's being so hasty because I know we're not getting a dog for 2 years and I already have been in contact with and narrowed down my choice of breeders to about 3 Aussie breeders so that I can ensure a perfect match.
post #4 of 22
I researched Cresteds for a few years, and had a few breeders in mind before I purchased Fred.

Many times, if a reputable breeder does not have a current or planned litter.. they will ussually refer to someone that they know does. Many breeders have waiting lists to get a puppy.

I just dont think a health contract should be voided because you chose to feed a different brand of food, or you felt the dog should be spayed/neutered earlier.
post #5 of 22
just want to add..

an overly strict contract and guarantee doesnt mean its a bad breeder.. if this breeder is showing, health testing, and breeding for the betterment of the breed, does guarantee genetic defects, etc.. and your MIL does not personally have an issue with the guarante.. then its her choice.. as long as she feels she can prevent the dog from mating until she can neuter.

I personally do not like to see such strict contracts.. there's a fine line between wanting to assure the animal goes to a good home where it wont be bred.... and just being controlling. I feel that owners should be able to make their own decisions regarding food, vaccinations and what age to spay/neuter.
post #6 of 22
Thread Starter 
She expressed concern about waiting as she does not want the dog to go into heat, but waiting so long...that is exactly what will happen. She's just being impatient about finding a puppy. Also, she may not be concerned about potential mating (she said it would "never" happen) but they do not have a fenced in yard either. I know that my last dog, who was extremely well behaved and well trained STILL took off a few times during her "teenage rebellion" period. I do like the breeder, just concerned about my in-laws waiting so long to spay.

I know a few breeders I've come across in my Aussie research have been so strict in their contract they wanted to co-own all puppies.
post #7 of 22
Originally Posted by nekkiddoglady View Post
I researched Cresteds for a few years, and had a few breeders in mind before I purchased Fred.
Hey sorry to go off topic but I am looking into possibly getting a Crested (powderpuff), do you have any information on the breed or what to look for in a breeder as far as what health testing and things like that they should have? I know the basics but I am hoping for insight from people who own them.
post #8 of 22
Originally Posted by Nekochan View Post
Hey sorry to go off topic but I am looking into possibly getting a Crested (powderpuff), do you have any information on the breed or what to look for in a breeder as far as what health testing and things like that they should have? I know the basics but I am hoping for insight from people who own them.
CERF testing is an absolute must! The breed is prone to eye problems.. PRA and Dry Eye are the more common issues. Optigen testing is a plus (this checks for genetic markers for one type of PRA).. also important is OFA for the patellas.. BAER testing is also a plus, as some lines are prone to closed ear canal.

Darling Poodles here also has a few Cresteds.. you can also join us at www.crestedsrock.com to talk to more Crested owners.

There are a few bloodlines I'd reccomend you stay away from, but I refuse to post them publicly.. any time you mention certain breeders or their lines publicly, they are on that forum stirring up problems! I'd rather not start a flame war here with someone who is ignorant enough to believe that people are "jelous" of her "love mill".
post #9 of 22
Also if you are just interested in a pet Crested.. try www.crest-care.net for rescue.. its very easy to find a puff.. they are often overlooked. Most people who want a Crested are wanting a hairless.. people who are wanting a "normal" dog often overlook the breed in general, because they associate them with the hairless, and dont realize they come in a coated version as well.
post #10 of 22
Yes I have Cresteds and am also a member of the Crested Forum mentioned. I DEFINITLY recommend joining and doing alot of reading and asking questions!! As Nekkiddoglady said, there are some lines you want to stay far away from. The Crested breed and Crested breeders are unlike anything I have ever seen.......I have learned ALOT since buying my first Crested!!
I am rambling but anyway, they are an awesome breed, good luck on your search and I hope we see you over on the CC board
post #11 of 22
My Golden Retriever breeder insisted (and made me sign a contract) that Riley was not to be neutered until 14 months, even though he was sold with a limited contract and could not be bred...

The thing that sucks is 1) my vet said she'd never seen a single qualifed study linking early neutering to defects, and 2) I had to pay A LOT more for the anasthesia, because he weighed more at 14 months than he would have at 6.

But if it's in the contract, it's in the contract....
post #12 of 22
If you dont like what a breeder has in her contract, then look elswhere.

My Crested had a spay/neuter contract.. but nothing about the age it was to be done... just that I would get his Limited AKC paperwork sent to me when I sent her a proof of neuter.. I guess technically I didnt have to neuter, as long as I didnt breed him... I'd just never get his paperwork.

I had people try to tell me that I paid so much for him, I should be allowed to do what I want with him.. my reply is that I AM doing what I want. If I wanted a breeding dog, I could have either A) Paid more and got an even stricter contract regarding showing and breeding or B ) look around and find a lesser-quality dog from a breeder who will sell me a fully registered dog, but with a sucky health guarantee.

Ive had all kinds of arguments on why I should breed him..

"to get the money back that I paid for him".. I paid that because I wanted a crested. You dont buy a car and then sell the parts to get your money back. Nothing is free in life!

"to make money".. ya, we all know better than that! Of course with people like this you can point out that the owner of the female owns the litter.. stud owners dont make that much.

"to get one of his puppies, expecially so you will have one when he gets old and dies".. considering that younger dogs are bred, his son would be only 2-5 years younger than him anyways. My view on this is that it wouldnt be fair to either dog, Id have high expectations of his son being like him.. also, Fred has quite a few half-siblings from his sire, and even a litter mate, in the show ring.. I can easily find a puppy that is closely related. His litter mate actually sired a litter last year.. if I could imagine what Fred's pups would look like.. that would be it.

and to beat around the bush.. some people just think you will give them a puppy for free/cheap if you breed... it was not directly said, but it was hinted at!
post #13 of 22
I would see exactly what the contract says in writing as far as the "age" to spay. If its just the breeder's recommendation and it doesn't nullify the contract, then spay when you want to spay.

But I also feel if you are not 100% comfortable with the breeder, to keep looking.
post #14 of 22
I dont think a health guarantee should be voided because you made a decision of when to spay, or what brand of food to feed, when to vaccinate etc... a genetic health problem, is a genetic health problem.. the dog will get it regardless.
post #15 of 22
I make reccomendations when selling my kittens. Two of my kittens went to their new homes today and while I make reccomendations what to feed, when to worm it's their choice at the end of the day - the only thing in the contract is that they will have them desexed before the age of 6 months and have them vaccinated (booster shot).
post #16 of 22
my breeder reccommended certain brands of food.. but it wasnt an actual requirement in the contract.

My vet told me that one of his clients recently purchased a weim puppy, and it had a VERY strict contract.. it was suppossed to be fed a specific brand/formula of food, given specific vaccinations, etc.. the vet had to special-order the vaccines!

Actually it was a good thing he had these vaccines.. Fred has had mild vaccine reactions in the past. We tried the special ordered ones, since they dont have the lepto or corona... no reactions!
post #17 of 22
Many breeders of larger breed dogs will specify a later spay/neuter because of growth/bone issues and problems that may appear if done before maturity. If this breeder is reputable and knows her breed you should pay attention, to do otherwise may indeed void the health guarantee and harm the dog down the road. I would ask why she saying to do it later, then decide, there may be a very good reason.
post #18 of 22
Roxy's breeder (Maine Coon) had a big thing about when to spay/neuter. It was in the care instructions they sent. My vet prefers not to spay/neuter cats before 6 months (if possible) but I am not sure her thoughts on s/n for dogs. She is a more holistic-oriented vet.

Personally I would wait to neuter until 12 months old for medium/large breed male dogs due to the risk of osteosarcoma. For females I prefer to spay before first heat.

This is what the Maine Coon breeder had about s/n:

Your Maine Coon Male or Female should be neutered/spayed between 7-9 months of age. Do not do this any earlier or later! Spaying/neutering before they are 7 months old can stunt their growth and not allow them to realize full size potential. Any later than 9 months and spay/neuter becomes just a bit more risky and gets even riskier the older your Maine Coon gets. If your Vet does laser spay/neuter or you know of our hear of a reliable, caring Vet that does laser work, that is the best and safest for your Maine Coon.
One more item: if your Vet ever tells you your kitten should be spayed/neutered before 7 months of age, FIND ANOTHER VET. If your Vet says your Maine Coon is an inside cat and doesn’t have to be neutered, FIND ANOTHER VET.
post #19 of 22
Ive also been told that neutering before sexual maturity makes them grow abit bigger.. the increased production of testosterone supposuvly triggers the body to slow/stop growth.

I dont know about that.. Fred was snipped at 5 months.. he is pretty average sized for his bloodlines.
post #20 of 22
Breeders sometimes have very strong opinions on how the puppies they sell will be treated. And there is a case to be made for not speutering too early for health and development reasons.

NAIA is not one of my favorite organizations, but this article which they have made available is I think one of the better ones out there that discusses pros and cons from a health standpoint.
post #21 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks for that link - very informative!
post #22 of 22
Many dog people have very definite opinions on when to spay/neuter. There have been some studies indicating that waiting until a dog attains full sexual maturity might be a good idea, especially for larger breeds.

Just remember that unaltered dogs aren't as big of a problem as unaltered cats are . An unspayed cat is constantly in heat, always howling and looking for a tom, and it's almost a foregone conclusion that she WILL get pregnant. An unspayed dog will only be in heat for 3-4 weeks, and is easily contained during that time. So allowing one heat in a dog isn't really a big deal if they're responsible. Same with male dogs.....they aren't so obnoxious as tomcats, and most people don't let their dogs run loose, so it's not a problem in most cases to wait a year or 2.

If the breeder is an excellent breeder that does all health testing and all that, I wouldn't hesitate to buy form them. But, if your in-laws don't like the terms of the contract, they should find a different breeder. It's important to find a breeder you're comfortable with.
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