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Texas Board of Education and the teaching of evolution

post #1 of 111
1/24/09 at 12:53am
Thread Starter 
It's been a long time since I was in school, and I don't have kids in school, so I am surprised that this is still an issue, the teaching of evolution in schools? Or is this an issue in only certain areas?

Anyway, it seems as if Texas is moving toward the teaching of evolution.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/24/ed...n/24texas.html
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post #2 of 111
1/24/09 at 12:58am
It amazes me that in this great country of ours issues like this are still up for debate. I mean.... A school not teaching evolution? It's hard pill to swallow! Thank Goodness we are moving towards the 21st Century - about time!
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post #3 of 111
1/24/09 at 4:32am
Actually, I kind of like the idea of teaching origin/evolution in a comparative way, but to be honest, I don't think it's workable. What teacher is qualified to answer the inevitable question of "why are they different?". And how do you test on a subject in which you encourage students to look for other explanations? Opponents, Proponents, parents, other teachers and students with an axe to grind or a late homework assignment will be watching teachers, just waiting for them to "lean" too far one way, or the other.

It would just be a mind-wracking, confusing mess
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post #4 of 111
1/24/09 at 5:11am
I like how this article clearly explains both sides of the issue. All of my education has been from Texas public schools and I was taught evolution with no mention of any controversy about it.

Some important points in the article:

Quote:
Still, the conservative faction, led by the board’s chairman, Dr. Don McLeroy, ...<snip>...Dr. McLeroy, a dentist from College Station who describes himself as “a Darwin skeptic,”
The "board" is Texas Board of Education.

Quote:
Though the requirement to teach strengths and weaknesses of theories was first adopted here two decades ago, teachers have largely ignored it.
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The federal courts have ruled that public schools’ teaching of either creationism or intelligent design violates the separation of church and state.
Some friends of mine home school. They do it for reasons that have nothing to do with the teaching of evolution but they say the vast majority of the people who home school do it because they don't want their kids taught the theory of evolution.

I think religion should stay out of public education. If parents want their kids exposed to ideas other than what they get in public schools they are free to do so. That's what churches are for.
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post #5 of 111
1/24/09 at 6:04am
The problem is really a simple one. While most people believe that some form of evolution explains the origins of species (what a great title for a book!), science teachers have a bad habit of going the extra step. That is, after they teach this, they tend to say, "And that's why the Bible is a work of fiction and there is no God." OK, they don't often state it that baldly, but I've heard them come very close, even back when I was in high school so many years ago.

I DON'T think Creationism needs to be taught in the schools. But I DO think it has to be acknowledged. And I don't have a problem with other beliefs being acknowledged. I don't think any educator would dare to take on any belief of Muslims, Buddhists, or any other religion and bravely say in the classroom that that belief is totally false. This is an attack on religion that is unnecessary and gratuitous. I would not want to be the head administrator in, say, the Detroit school district and discover that teachers there were routinely telling students that Muhamed never existed or that any of his teachings were an absolute crock.

What I'm saying is that evolution can be taught without making it a frontal assault on Christianity.
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post #6 of 111
1/24/09 at 6:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
I DON'T think Creationism needs to be taught in the schools. But I DO think it has to be acknowledged.
Can it be acknowledged in such a way that isn't also essentially teaching it?

In order to preserve seperation of church and state I don't think religion should be discussed in public schools at all. There's no reason to. Do churches teach that evolution is an alternative theory to creationism? [Edit: I should have said "acknowledge, not "teach".]

Quote:
What I'm saying is that evolution can be taught without making it a frontal assault on Christianity
I would be fully in favor of prohibiting teachers from mentioning religion in any way. That would resolve this concern wouldn't it?
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post #7 of 111
1/24/09 at 7:12am
I don't see any way to go about life in a normal manner and prohibit any mention of religion. And we do, after all, still have a right to free speech.
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post #8 of 111
1/24/09 at 7:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
I don't see any way to go about life in a normal manner and prohibit any mention of religion. And we do, after all, still have a right to free speech.
And history includes religion, you can't just rewrite history. Well, wait. Sometimes they try to.

Religion is part of history just like it is part of today's life. It's protected in the Constitution: both the inclusion of it and the exclusion of it.
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post #9 of 111
1/24/09 at 7:27am
That's sad. But that is one reason why a lot more parents are home schooling. Especially those that believe in creationism over evolution. Both are theories (tho I tend to pick one as more truth over the other). And BOTH IMO should be taught in school.

The problem is the evolutionist want to make people believe they are right and they don't want to accept the possibility that they may be wrong about everything.

I never did buy into the monkey to man "theory" - it makes no sense at all. I've always doubted the truth of evolution in school. Even now I giggle at "scientists" that are still claiming dinosaurs are millions of years old.

Its not right to teach one without teaching the other - present BOTH sides and let the kids make up their minds which makes more sense to them.
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post #10 of 111
1/24/09 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
I don't see any way to go about life in a normal manner and prohibit any mention of religion. And we do, after all, still have a right to free speech.
The prohibition would only be in effect in the classroom. It's very simple really. During a discussion of evolution if a student says something like "How does this fit in with creationism" the teacher could respond with "This is a science class and that is a question of theology that is best answered by someone else."

Freedom of speech is not absolute. If it were you would have no basis for complaining about what you see as a teacher's "frontal assault on Christianity."

Again, churches make no attempt to acknowledge evolution as an alternative theory to creationism so why should a public school teacher be required to acknowledge creationism as an alternative to evolution?
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post #11 of 111
1/24/09 at 7:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
.
Its not right to teach one without teaching the other - present BOTH sides and let the kids make up their minds which makes more sense to them.
Is that what churches do?
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post #12 of 111
1/24/09 at 7:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
I don't see any way to go about life in a normal manner and prohibit any mention of religion. And we do, after all, still have a right to free speech.
Very true. But US Government funded institutions do not have that luxury when it comes to religion. They can either not mention it at all, or mention it all inclusively. That means Adam and Eve, the Earth being on the back of a great Turtle, the Universe being enclosed inside the skull of a slain frost giant, God being the all of everything, etc etc etc.
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post #13 of 111
1/24/09 at 7:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neetanddave View Post
And history includes religion, you can't just rewrite history. Well, wait. Sometimes they try to.

Religion is part of history just like it is part of today's life. It's protected in the Constitution: both the inclusion of it and the exclusion of it.
Exactly! Each and every one of them.
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post #14 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Its not right to teach one without teaching the other - present BOTH sides and let the kids make up their minds which makes more sense to them.
But there are far, far, far more than "both" of them. I particularly like the one about the human race descending from the brother and sister in the yellow wooden drum, myself.
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post #15 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:03am
And I'm kind of fond of the world carried on the backs of four elephants standing on the back of the great A Tuin, a tortoise traveling through space.
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post #16 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
And I'm kind of fond of the world carried on the backs of four elephants standing on the back of the great A Tuin, a tortoise traveling through space.
I like that one, but it makes me wonder about where the atmosphere comes from when living on the back of a big turtle
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post #17 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
But there are far, far, far more than "both" of them. I particularly like the one about the human race descending from the brother and sister in the yellow wooden drum, myself.
I *love* this one:

Quote:
the Universe being enclosed inside the skull of a slain frost giant
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post #18 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:21am
I have no problem with evolution being taught in schools. I think any discrepencies in science should be saved until high school, when kids are more mature and are starting to think for themselves. I don't think they should be brought up at the 2nd or 3rd grade level.

There are many interesting stories of the creation of the universe. I believe in evolution....controled by a higher power. Scientists may think they have things down pat, but they don't. There are still missing pieces of the story. I don't think there is anything wrong with letting older students explore other possiblitities and question the "experts", but it shouldn't be introduced until then.
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post #19 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:24am
I don't know about anyone else but I do not believe for one moment that I evolved from the primordial goo. Nope, now way, no how, not even logical.

I remember the good old days then we recited the Lord's Prayer in school and had prayers regularly.
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post #20 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
That's sad. But that is one reason why a lot more parents are home schooling. Especially those that believe in creationism over evolution. Both are theories (tho I tend to pick one as more truth over the other). And BOTH IMO should be taught in school.

The problem is the evolutionist want to make people believe they are right and they don't want to accept the possibility that they may be wrong about everything.

I never did buy into the monkey to man "theory" - it makes no sense at all. I've always doubted the truth of evolution in school. Even now I giggle at "scientists" that are still claiming dinosaurs are millions of years old.

Its not right to teach one without teaching the other - present BOTH sides and let the kids make up their minds which makes more sense to them.
Wow - evolution is not really a theory; it is a fact, well explained by science. It doesn't prove that God doesn't exist, for me if there is a God, he allowed to happen.
Dinosaurs are millions of years old... a 70 million old dinosaur fossil was just found in Mongolia in 2006... I hope you don't thing they are thousands of years old...
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post #21 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
I have no problem with evolution being taught in schools. I think any discrepencies in science should be saved until high school, when kids are more mature and are starting to think for themselves. I don't think they should be brought up at the 2nd or 3rd grade level.

There are many interesting stories of the creation of the universe. I believe in evolution....controled by a higher power. Scientists may think they have things down pat, but they don't. There are still missing pieces of the story. I don't think there is anything wrong with letting older students explore other possiblitities and question the "experts", but it shouldn't be introduced until then.
Thats really cool my grandmother used to call evolution 'the process of creation'.
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post #22 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
I have no problem with evolution being taught in schools. I think any discrepencies in science should be saved until high school, when kids are more mature and are starting to think for themselves. I don't think they should be brought up at the 2nd or 3rd grade level.

There are many interesting stories of the creation of the universe. I believe in evolution....controled by a higher power. Scientists may think they have things down pat, but they don't. There are still missing pieces of the story. I don't think there is anything wrong with letting older students explore other possiblitities and question the "experts", but it shouldn't be introduced until then.
Even if the "other possibilities" conflict with Christianity?

Religion is the basis of (excuse for some would say; but that's another thread) so much conflict in the world that I would be in favor the public schools including a "religions of the world" curriculum. But that would include an *objective* review of *all* the major religions of the world, including those that conflict with Christianity. Of course there would be those who would be upset because *their* religion wasn't considered major enough to be included.
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post #23 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
I have no problem with evolution being taught in schools. I think any discrepencies in science should be saved until high school, when kids are more mature and are starting to think for themselves. I don't think they should be brought up at the 2nd or 3rd grade level.

There are many interesting stories of the creation of the universe. I believe in evolution....controled by a higher power. Scientists may think they have things down pat, but they don't. There are still missing pieces of the story. I don't think there is anything wrong with letting older students explore other possiblitities and question the "experts", but it shouldn't be introduced until then.
I agree and I think all students should be taught that science does NOT have all the answers. But no, students seem to be taught that scientists are infallible and I have a problem with that.
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post #24 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I agree and I think all students should be taught that science does NOT have all the answers. But no, students seem to be taught that scientists are infallible and I have a problem with that.
It is still called the Theory of Evolution, which simply means that it fits all the observable criteria. It does not mean, nor do the scientists working at it, claim to have all the answers.
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post #25 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
Even if the "other possibilities" conflict with Christianity?

Religion is the basis of (excuse for some would say; but that's another thread) so much conflict in the world that I would be in favor the public schools including a "religions of the world" curriculum. But that would include an *objective* review of *all* the major religions of the world, including those that conflict with Christianity. Of course there would be those who would be upset because *their* religion wasn't considered major enough to be included.
Religion is just putting a name to the higher power. It doesn't matter the name or the story. I didn't say what story to talk about. I said I think it's ok to question the scientific evidence (and what is lacking) and discuss that from there. It's up to them to bring up their own religion and beliefs in discussion, not in teaching.
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post #26 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't know about anyone else but I do not believe for one moment that I evolved from the primordial goo. Nope, now way, no how, not even logical.

I remember the good old days then we recited the Lord's Prayer in school and had prayers regularly.
And I have to say that the church I grew up in actively supported the banning of prayer in school, because there definitely needs to be a separation and what my church believes should be in a prayer will almost certainly not be what yours believes.
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post #27 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
Religion is just putting a name to the higher power. It doesn't matter the name or the story. I didn't say what story to talk about. I said I think it's ok to question the scientific evidence (and what is lacking) and discuss that from there. It's up to them to bring up their own religion and beliefs in discussion, not in teaching.
Good as long as you understand that that opens the door for questioning Christianity (and what is lacking).
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post #28 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
Even if the "other possibilities" conflict with Christianity?

Religion is the basis of (excuse for some would say; but that's another thread) so much conflict in the world that I would be in favor the public schools including a "religions of the world" curriculum. But that would include an *objective* review of *all* the major religions of the world, including those that conflict with Christianity. Of course there would be those who would be upset because *their* religion wasn't considered major enough to be included.
I agree wholeheartedly!
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post #29 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't know about anyone else but I do not believe for one moment that I evolved from the primordial goo. Nope, now way, no how, not even logical.

I remember the good old days then we recited the Lord's Prayer in school and had prayers regularly.
Actually, they have found evidence that sea squirts are closely linked to vertibrates and humans.

http://www.jgi.doe.gov/News/news_12_12_02.html

They are actually very beautiful when you see them underwater.

There is nothing wrong with believing in God AND believing in evolution. But, to each their own.
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post #30 of 111
1/24/09 at 8:45am
I understand how in life people might get confused between evolution and what they are taught in their churches. In biology, however, evolution is accepted without a single streak of doubt. There is no way to teach biology without teaching evolution because when you teach evolution, everything that you've had to memorize starts to make sense. For those of you who mentioned monkey to man or something of that sorts, I think somewhere along the line you got the wrong idea. Monkey to man is like saying cat to tiger or something like that..That's not how it works lol...If we had to be correct evolution can be simplified more like: bacteria (cyanobacteria if I had to be specific) to man (and many other animals). I had never heard of a school that doesn't teach evolution yet, but I have heard some debates. I am surprised. All I can say is, not teaching evolution is not preparing well enough for college.
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