Good News re Ear Cropping/Tail Docking

sweet72947 · Mar 14, 2009

This is a very controversial topic in the dog world, one that get's people's tempers flaring. I will never support legislation that bans cropping/docking. Owners should have a CHOICE whether they crop/dock their dogs. Docking is done when pups are very young, before the nerves in the tail have adequately formed, so pain is basically nonexistant. With ear crops, pups bounce back very quickly from the procedure. I have seen Dobe pups with their ears taped and posted, and they do not care! They run and play just like any other puppy. They may fuss with the tape initially, but you simply distract them with toys and such, and they soon learn to forget about it.

Did you know that in PA, they tried to pass legislation that banned cropping/docking, required owners to submit proof that their dogs were cropped/docked by a liscensed veterinarian, and those who could not would have seen their dogs taken away and euthanised for simply not having a tail or natural ears! (Luckily this legislation did not pass) Some people DO get dogs from rescue and they have no way of finding out who or where their dog was cropped. And some breeds (like australian shepherds and pembroke welsh corgis) will have puppies in the litter born without tails. Euthanising dogs for not having a tail? Rediculous. I will post the article here a little later.

Cropping/docking legislation is part of the agenda of Animal Rights organizations such as PetA and the HSUS to eliminate pet owner ship. People who believe in Animal Rights believe it is an animal's Right not to be owned! They believe that pets are slaves (yes, even your adorable little pampered putty tats) and that it is wrong to own them. (Although some of them do own pets, but they call them "the friend that has to live with me.")

BSL, Cropping/Docking Legislation, Mandatory Spay/Neuter Legislation and Anti-Tethering Legislation are all chipping away at pet owner's rights one stupid law at a time. Plus it costs the taxpayers a ton of money to try to enforce all this crap.

*steps off soap box*

sweet72947 · Mar 14, 2009

This is the article I mentioned in my previous post talking about the legislation PA tried to pass. THANKFULLY it didn't.

Pennsylvania Draft Legislation
Puts Clamps on Tail Docking

A proposed revision of the Pennsylvania Animal Cruelty law makes it illegal for anyone to own or possess a dog or puppy with a docked tail, unless the person can prove that the tail was docked by a licensed veterinarian or has filed an affidavit of proof with a county treasurer that the procedure was done before the law goes into effect. This draft legislation will be presented to the Dog Law Advisory Board this week, prior to being published in The Pennsylvania Bulletin and submitted to the state Legislature.

The proposed law also would apply to nonresidents of Pennsylvania who are passing through the state, or who participate in field trials, dog shows, performance events or hunting here. Several sporting breeds routinely have their tails docked, following breed standards designed to prevent severe tail injuries while hunting, including Brittanys, German shorthaired pointers, cocker spaniels, various breeds of terriers and several others. Many other breeds that customarily have their tails docked are as diverse as Australian shepherds, Yorkshire terriers and rottweilers.

Animal cruelty statutes carry criminal penalties, and in Pennsylvania are enforced by Humane Society officers, county animal control officers and police officers. The proposed legislation also grants power to state dog wardens to enforce all animal cruelty statutes.

The American Sporting Dog Alliance (ASDA) is actively working to oppose this legislation. We need your support and membership right now to show Pennsylvania lawmakers that sporting dog owners are united in opposition to this arbitrary infringement of our rights and breed traditions. Please visit our website to learn about us and join our fight to protect your rights: http://www.americansportingdogalliance.org.

This legislation will be introduced to accompany a major 80-page-long revision of Pennsylvania’s kennel laws. Both bills are supported by Gov. Ed Rendell. ASDA will be issuing commentary about the tough new kennel legislation in the near future.

ASDA maintains that this legislation quite literally would create chaos and result in stiff fines for many thousands of law-abiding dog owners every year. While licensed kennel owners may be informed at some point, few pet owners would have a way of knowing about the law until a dog warden shows up at their door with a citation. Perhaps the most vulnerable people would be pet owners and hunters who own one or two dogs, but don’t participate in events or organizations that would inform them of this law. We see the potential for millions of dollars in unfair and unjustified fines to be sucked out of the pockets of law-abiding private citizens to feed the greedy jaws of government.

If passed into law, this legislation also would have a devastating impact on field trials, performance testing and shows for many breeds. Nonresidents simply would not be able to comply with a requirement, which would require having a veterinary certificate or registering the dog with a county treasurer in Pennsylvania.

Most people who buy a dog or puppy have no way of knowing if a veterinarian has docked the tail, but simply have taken a breeder at his or her word when proof has not been required by law. They also may not be able to contact someone else’s veterinarian many months or years after the fact to obtain proof. Some people also may be trapped by this law if a veterinarian has retired, moved or died, or if the dog’s breeder cannot be located. Even after being cited, these people would have no way to come into compliance in the future, and would be given the painful choice of either facing increasingly stiff penalties in the future or euthanizing their beloved pet and companion. This legislation would turn thousands of law-abiding people into criminals, at the stroke of a pen!

In addition, some dogs lose part or all of their tails through accidents and injuries, and sometimes as newborn puppies. This can happen to a newborn puppy if its mother steps on it or accidentally hurts its tail cleaning it up after birth. Older dogs can get their tails caught in doors, or break them by accidentally cracking them against hard objects. Owners of these dogs would have no defense against being charged with animal cruelty.

The legislation also would seriously impact both Pennsylvania and out-of-state trainers and handlers, who would be virtually prohibited from bringing a dog with a docked tail into the state for a field trial or to be trained. Many Pennsylvania residents also would be effectively prohibited from buying a dog or puppy from a breeder of their choice from out of state, even if the breeder was completely in compliance with the laws of his or her own state.

Even travelers passing through Pennsylvania with their pets would be subject to a criminal citation under this legislation.

Some conscientious and experienced breeders dock the tails of puppies, after having been advised to do this and trained by their veterinarians. This practice would be prohibited by the legislation. Many veterinarians report that newly born puppies show no signs of pain or discomfort from docking procedures, and some even sleep through the procedure.

A particularly onerous aspect of this legislation is that it places the burden of proof on the person who owns a dog or is in possession of it, rather than upon the state. This flies in the face of the entire American system of jurisprudence, which is based on the presumption of innocence for anyone who is accused of violating any law. These vital protections to individual liberties are enshrined in the constitutions of the United States and most states. No crime of any kind is more serious or dangerous to American society than comprising the integrity of the Constitution and basic human rights.

The legislation also includes similar prohibitions against debarking dogs, performing caesarian sections to assist in birthing puppies, and cropping ears.

ASDA is in complete support of the prohibitions in the legislation against these procedures by anyone other than a licensed veterinarian. We feel that it is completely inappropriate for anyone except a licensed veterinarian to perform these procedures.

However, ASDA opposes placing the burden of proof on the dog owner, trainer or handler of the dog. We believe that legal liability should be limited to the person who owned the dog at the time the procedures were performed, and that the burden of proof should lie with the state.

Willowy · Mar 14, 2009

Wow, that law was awful, I'm glad it didn't pass. I have a Rottweiler, and since he was a rescue, I have no idea how his tail was docked. I'm sure the breeders did it themselves.....that's the most common, NOBODY takes puppies to vets to be docked. BUt I'd have no way of proving anything one way or the other.

I do not think cropping or docking should be illegal. I think that's giving too much power to the government. But I don't think people should do it. I think there is NO acceptable level of pain and/or risk for a procedure that has NO benefit to the animal.

esmedarling · Mar 29, 2009

That is far from good news!!! I think it is HORRIBLE that the government could say what we can and cannot do with our pets. I have a doberman, cropped/docked and a great dane, cropped. It states in the original standard of the breed that they are supposed to be cropped/docked. That is how I want them.

Trust me when I say this, you will see a quick decline in QUALITY dogs if the true lovers of the breed are not able to crop/dock. I personally know many of the top breeders in dobermans and danes and over 80% of them said they would no longer breed. Grab yourself a copy of Dane World Magazine or the Doberman Digest and I will know 3/4 the people in there.

And the BYB would take over these breeds and rouine them. It has happened in other countries where cropping/docking is banned and it will happen here too.

I have a very strong opinon about this. I probobly shouldn't have said anything......

Should we not Circumcise babies anymore either then??? same principle...

Willowy · Mar 29, 2009

Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

Trust me when I say this, you will see a quick decline in QUALITY dogs if the true lovers of the breed are not able to crop/dock. I personally know many of the top breeders in dobermans and danes and over 80% of them said they would no longer breed. Grab yourself a copy of Dane World Magazine or the Doberman Digest and I will know 3/4 the people in there.

Seems to me that if they wouldn't breed anymore just because they weren't allowed to crop/dock, then they don't really like the breed anyway. Looks aren't everything. I think they just say that because they don't want things to change.

wellingtoncats · Mar 29, 2009

Originally Posted by Willowy

Seems to me that if they wouldn't breed anymore just because they weren't allowed to crop/dock, then they don't really like the breed anyway. Looks aren't everything. I think they just say that because they don't want things to change.

I BREED Persians and if they changed something - I wouldn't just give it all up but I'd probably give a Devon Rex breeding programme a go!

Circumsision and ear cropping are TOTALLY different, IMO.

snake_lady · Mar 30, 2009

Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

Circumsision and ear cropping are TOTALLY different, IMO.

Cropping/Docking could be compared to declawing.... definately not circumision.

Personally, I am glad these laws are coming up.... I can understand on the breeds where there is a health risk involved with letting the tail grow to length, IF it is docked by a Vet..... but docking/cropping for cosmetic reasons only.... no, I don't agree with.

Sidenote: Shouldn't this post be in IMO, since that's what it is turning out to be?

nekochan · Mar 30, 2009

Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

That is far from good news!!! I think it is HORRIBLE that the government could say what we can and cannot do with our pets. I have a doberman, cropped/docked and a great dane, cropped. It states in the original standard of the breed that they are supposed to be cropped/docked. That is how I want them.

You think that AKC allowing dogs who are not cropped/docked in conformation shows is bad news? Why?

AKC is not the government, they are a purebred dog organization.

Willowy · Mar 30, 2009

Originally Posted by Nekochan

AKC is not the government, they are a purebred dog organization.

Exactly! I would not support banning the practice on a governmental level. That's just TOO scary. But I would totally support the kennel clubs taking a stand on the subject and removing docking/cropping from breed standards. That's their job----to define breed standards and acceptable dog showing practices.

rang_27 · Mar 30, 2009

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I couldn't take the newspaper with me (was reading it at the repair shop) but just read an article this past weekend regarding AKC and ear cropping/tail docking.

AKC is finally allowing dogs to be uncropped/docked in the show rings to compete. The main reason (other then a push in the US to ban it - some states are banning ear cropping now) was that dogs from Europe could not be shown in the US even if registered in AKC because their were uncropped and not docked.

Personally I'm glad - will be interesting over the next few years to see both in the rings and see which ones will be picked. Hope the uncropped ones will start winning more

I just came across this thread am I am glad that the AKC has agreed to let these dogs be shown. I am not a dog owner, but have never understood the ear cropping & tail docking. I know others don't want to be told what to do, but at least allowing both types to be shown is fair.

cjh27 · Mar 30, 2009

"A proposed revision of the Pennsylvania Animal Cruelty law makes it illegal for anyone to own or possess a dog or puppy with a docked tail, unless the person can prove that the tail was docked by a licensed veterinarian or has filed an affidavit of proof with a county treasurer that the procedure was done before the law goes into effect. "

... what a horrific thought- is docking also some times done by breeders and anyone else who feels like doing it themselves, with out the professional training of a vet ?

... or is this a misunderstanding on my part?

Anyway.... HURRAY for AMERICA! for allowing un- cropped/docked dogs in show

Yes, it will take some time to get use to the "new look" but in a few years time nobody will look twice at an un- docked dog- it will have become perfectly normal

As for breeders who wouldn't breed anymore if cropping were made mandatory- that doesn't sound like much of a dedication to the breed itself if only a cropped dog ist a "good dog"

.

Christine

sweet72947 · Mar 31, 2009

Originally Posted by cjh27

... what a horrific thought- is docking also some times done by breeders and anyone else who feels like doing it themselves, with out the professional training of a vet ?

... or is this a misunderstanding on my part?

Breeders that have been breeding dogs for a long time (i.e. before vets were widely used, which really wasn't that long ago) would dock tails themselves. It can be done fairly easily and safely, but I don't recall the exact procedure; you would have to ask a breeder about that.

And yes, sadly there are people who have no idea what they are doing attempt to crop/dock dogs themselves. People do suck sometimes. But you can see that putting the onus on the owner to prove their dog was docked by a vet is ridiculous. If a person got a dog from the shelter, for example, how would they prove the dog's tail was docked by a vet?

Its just the ARist's attempting to exterminate pet ownership, one breed at a time.

Willowy · Mar 31, 2009

Originally Posted by cjh27

... what a horrific thought- is docking also some times done by breeders and anyone else who feels like doing it themselves, with out the professional training of a vet ?

... or is this a misunderstanding on my part?

All the time. As I understand it, when the puppies are about 3 days old, they take a large pair of dog nail clippers and remove the tail at a certain vertebrae (depending on breed). Supposedly it's safe and "neonates can't feel pain anyway" (which I think is total rot). Then they stop the bleeding with Quikstop or a similar product. This is the same procedure a vet uses in neonates, so there's not much difference whether the vet does it or the breeder does it.

One breeder (Miniature Schnauzers) told me she crops their ears with scissors at that age, too. Obviously not a show breeder, because a show crop is long and needs a lot of posting to stand up right. But I guess BYBs of pet-quality-only dogs will do that, because a "pet crop" is pretty short.

Ugh. I hate what humans do to animals

.

cjh27 · Mar 31, 2009

Originally Posted by Willowy

All the time. As I understand it, when the puppies are about 3 days old, they take a large pair of dog nail clippers and remove the tail at a certain vertebrae (depending on breed). Supposedly it's safe and "neonates can't feel pain anyway" (which I think is total rot). Then they stop the bleeding with Quikstop or a similar product. This is the same procedure a vet uses in neonates, so there's not much difference whether the vet does it or the breeder does it.

Um,

so a vet wouldn't anaesthetize a dog either EEK! ? Even a neonate can feel pain, and that must be an increadible amount of pain ... I would no more let a doctor cut a finger of a new born baby without anaesthetizing it first.

Why is this done so early? Why not wait untill the dog is a bit older and can be anaesthetized properly?

Christine

sweet72947 · Apr 1, 2009

Here is an interesting article I found about docking written by a veterinarian:

http://www.britfeld.com/tail-dock/facts.htm

Their Nervous system at birth is not even fully developed. There are still cell divisions in the brain and some of the nervous threads are not fully developed. In psychological tests, it has been determined that the time between the nervous impulse and reaction (chronaxie) takes 3-4 times longer than it would in an adult. After about 10-14 days, when the animals eyes are opened (until then it has been more like an embryo) it is possible to determine the normal value of the impulse. In 1941, Volkhov determined that animals, at this period of life, had very little feeling of pain. The conscious feeling of pain is still not very likely at that age.

Neat little fact page about docking (yorkies, but its good info)
http://www.yorkieinfocenter.com/Tail_Docking.html

If you wait until the dog is old enough to be put under anesthesia, the procedure becomes must more costly and healing takes longer. Why not do it young when it can be done quickly, safely and easily?

cjh27 · Apr 2, 2009

Originally Posted by Sweet72947

Here is an interesting article I found about docking written by a veterinarian:

http://www.britfeld.com/tail-dock/facts.htm?

Hi,

that report seems to be fairly out dated, do you know when it was written? Docking is illigal in Germany, by the way.

You can also find reports that state that docking causes severe pain and that puppies feel pain stronger then a grown up dog:

Tail docking is painful

Advocates of tail docking claim that it does not cause pain or discomfort, as the nervous system of puppies is not fully developed. This is not the case. The basic nervous system of a dog is fully developed at birth and the available evidence indicates that puppies have similar, if not increased, sensitivity to pain as adult dogs. Docking a puppy's tail involves cutting through muscles, tendons, up to seven pairs of highly sensitive nerves and severing bone and cartilage connections. Tail docking is usually carried out without any anaesthesia. Puppies give repeated intense shrieking vocalisations the moment the tail is cut off and during stitching of the wound, indicating that they experience substantial pain. Inflammation and damage to the tissues also cause ongoing pain while the wound heals.
http://www.rspca.org.au/campaign/tail.asp

For my part I don't see the point of even risking pain due to docking if there isn't a good medical reason to do this.

Originally Posted by Sweet72947

Neat little fact page about docking (yorkies, but its good info)
http://www.yorkieinfocenter.com/Tail_Docking.html

If you wait until the dog is old enough to be put under anesthesia, the procedure becomes must more costly and healing takes longer. Why not do it young when it can be done quickly, safely and easily?

The question should be- why do it at all?

The yorkie info centre states:

Reasons to Dock or Not Dock the Tail of a Yorkie

There is not reason based on the health or happiness to dock the tail of a Yorkie. Having a docked tail does not improve any vital element of the dog including motor skills or health. Why are Yorkie tails docked? The only reason is so that the dog fits the breed standard of the AKC and the other dog clubs that call out for it.

If the owner of a Yorkie is not planning on showing their dog in dog shows, there is no reason to dock the tail, other than a personal preference to have a dog who matches closest to breed standard conformation.

If an owner is planning to show their Yorkie in an AKC, ANKC, CKC, NZKC or UKC Conformation Event, the tail must be docked.

This procedure is done solely for appearance.

... in other words- the dog itself does not have a (medical) benefit from docking.

(Quotations are in green)

Christine

esmedarling · Apr 3, 2009

do my dogs look in pain? do they look unloved? and do they look like the standard says they should?

answer those questions honestly and you will see why cropping and docking is a fine practice when done properly and should never be banned!!! If you don't want you dog cropped or docked, I have nothing wrong with that. I just don't want that choice taken from me. America is land of freedom. it should stay that way. I thgink it should be perfectly fine to show an uncropped or undocked dog. I just don't think everyone should be forced to do so.... some happen to like the look that the orginal breeder intended.

wellingtoncats · Apr 3, 2009

I have to admit I don't like seeing their ears all bandaged up!

snake_lady · Apr 3, 2009

Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

do my dogs look in pain? do they look unloved? and do they look like the standard says they should?

answer those questions honestly and you will see why cropping and docking is a fine practice when done properly and should never be banned!!!

In that first picture, yes, your dog looks like s/he is uncomfortable.

Unloved, no....in the latter pics they look comfortable.

lil maggie · Apr 3, 2009

WOW, what a touchy subject!!

Good News re Ear Cropping/Tail Docking

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