Good News re Ear Cropping/Tail Docking - Page 2

"A proposed revision of the Pennsylvania Animal Cruelty law makes it illegal for anyone to own or possess a dog or puppy with a docked tail, unless the person can prove that the tail was docked by a licensed veterinarian or has filed an affidavit of proof with a county treasurer that the procedure was done before the law goes into effect. "


... what a horrific thought- is docking also some times done by breeders and anyone else who feels like doing it themselves, with out the professional training of a vet ? ... or is this a misunderstanding on my part?


Anyway.... HURRAY for AMERICA! for allowing un- cropped/docked dogs in show

Yes, it will take some time to get use to the "new look" but in a few years time nobody will look twice at an un- docked dog- it will have become perfectly normal

As for breeders who wouldn't breed anymore if cropping were made mandatory- that doesn't sound like much of a dedication to the breed itself if only a cropped dog ist a "good dog" .


Christine

Breeders that have been breeding dogs for a long time (i.e. before vets were widely used, which really wasn't that long ago) would dock tails themselves. It can be done fairly easily and safely, but I don't recall the exact procedure; you would have to ask a breeder about that.

And yes, sadly there are people who have no idea what they are doing attempt to crop/dock dogs themselves. People do suck sometimes. But you can see that putting the onus on the owner to prove their dog was docked by a vet is ridiculous. If a person got a dog from the shelter, for example, how would they prove the dog's tail was docked by a vet?

Its just the ARist's attempting to exterminate pet ownership, one breed at a time.

All the time. As I understand it, when the puppies are about 3 days old, they take a large pair of dog nail clippers and remove the tail at a certain vertebrae (depending on breed). Supposedly it's safe and "neonates can't feel pain anyway" (which I think is total rot). Then they stop the bleeding with Quikstop or a similar product. This is the same procedure a vet uses in neonates, so there's not much difference whether the vet does it or the breeder does it.

One breeder (Miniature Schnauzers) told me she crops their ears with scissors at that age, too. Obviously not a show breeder, because a show crop is long and needs a lot of posting to stand up right. But I guess BYBs of pet-quality-only dogs will do that, because a "pet crop" is pretty short.

Ugh. I hate what humans do to animals .

Um,

so a vet wouldn't anaesthetize a dog either EEK! ? Even a neonate can feel pain, and that must be an increadible amount of pain ... I would no more let a doctor cut a finger of a new born baby without anaesthetizing it first.

Why is this done so early? Why not wait untill the dog is a bit older and can be anaesthetized properly?

Christine

Here is an interesting article I found about docking written by a veterinarian:

http://www.britfeld.com/tail-dock/facts.htm

Neat little fact page about docking (yorkies, but its good info)
http://www.yorkieinfocenter.com/Tail_Docking.html

If you wait until the dog is old enough to be put under anesthesia, the procedure becomes must more costly and healing takes longer. Why not do it young when it can be done quickly, safely and easily?

Hi,

that report seems to be fairly out dated, do you know when it was written? Docking is illigal in Germany, by the way.

You can also find reports that state that docking causes severe pain and that puppies feel pain stronger then a grown up dog:

Tail docking is painful

Advocates of tail docking claim that it does not cause pain or discomfort, as the nervous system of puppies is not fully developed. This is not the case. The basic nervous system of a dog is fully developed at birth and the available evidence indicates that puppies have similar, if not increased, sensitivity to pain as adult dogs. Docking a puppy's tail involves cutting through muscles, tendons, up to seven pairs of highly sensitive nerves and severing bone and cartilage connections. Tail docking is usually carried out without any anaesthesia. Puppies give repeated intense shrieking vocalisations the moment the tail is cut off and during stitching of the wound, indicating that they experience substantial pain. Inflammation and damage to the tissues also cause ongoing pain while the wound heals.
http://www.rspca.org.au/campaign/tail.asp


For my part I don't see the point of even risking pain due to docking if there isn't a good medical reason to do this.




The question should be- why do it at all?

The yorkie info centre states:

Reasons to Dock or Not Dock the Tail of a Yorkie

There is not reason based on the health or happiness to dock the tail of a Yorkie. Having a docked tail does not improve any vital element of the dog including motor skills or health. Why are Yorkie tails docked? The only reason is so that the dog fits the breed standard of the AKC and the other dog clubs that call out for it.

If the owner of a Yorkie is not planning on showing their dog in dog shows, there is no reason to dock the tail, other than a personal preference to have a dog who matches closest to breed standard conformation.

If an owner is planning to show their Yorkie in an AKC, ANKC, CKC, NZKC or UKC Conformation Event, the tail must be docked.

This procedure is done solely for appearance.

... in other words- the dog itself does not have a (medical) benefit from docking.


(Quotations are in green)

Christine

do my dogs look in pain? do they look unloved? and do they look like the standard says they should?

answer those questions honestly and you will see why cropping and docking is a fine practice when done properly and should never be banned!!! If you don't want you dog cropped or docked, I have nothing wrong with that. I just don't want that choice taken from me. America is land of freedom. it should stay that way. I thgink it should be perfectly fine to show an uncropped or undocked dog. I just don't think everyone should be forced to do so.... some happen to like the look that the orginal breeder intended.

I have to admit I don't like seeing their ears all bandaged up!

In that first picture, yes, your dog looks like s/he is uncomfortable.

Unloved, no....in the latter pics they look comfortable.

WOW, what a touchy subject!!

Hi,

it seems to me that cropping/docking dogs is a little like de-clawing with cats. Some will say its necessary- while others will call it unnecessary

I would say that it is a fact that the actual docking/cropping procedure causes pain when done without anaesthetizing the dog- and that the dog will also experience pain while healing. Simply because dogs are mammals and as such can feel pain.


Christine

You know, the easiest solution to the whole argument is for show judges to only let undocked dogs win in the shows then there would be no reason for breeders to dock. It may take some time but eventually it would become "unfashionable" to dock and they would stop.

Then, the vets need to be educated about the barbarism of docking and declawing animals because those acts are barbaric and anyone practicing them needs to be re-trained.

On the other hand, we humans spend mega dollars on cosmetic surgeons to look however we think is better (not always, i.e. Joan Rivers, Kenny Rogers and Donatella are good examples of what not to do ). But humans make that decision for themselves, our animals don't have a say in it.

I also believe that anyone, vet or lay person, that says it doesn't hurt if done when the animal is really young are either stupid, lying or in serious denial to justify their actions.

Yup....just like declawing cats.

Good post.

While the cropping/docking compared to declawing a cat, is a fair comparission, it is still off. Docking/cropping for aesthetic reason is just that.... a cosmetic procedure to make them look a certain way. Declawing a cat is done for a reason (not for looks). The ONLY one I agree with is the breeds that have probs with their tails, yes, instead of injuring themselves they should be docked. Any cosmetic docking/cropping is barbaric IMHO. While I don't agree with declawing, at least people have a reason for doing so (damage by claws, etc) not just to make them look a certain way.

Nothing really more to add to the above post. Excellent post.

Except: the more countries that start outlawing docking/cropping, the better. It will lead to the chain reaction of different organizations to allow non-docked/cropped animals to compete.

No, she is faaaaaarrrrrr from uncomfortable!!! (you are truely a cat only person if you think that is an uncomfortable dog...) Her ears are posted in that picture.... NOT bandaged. The ears are COMPLETELY healed before they are ever posted.

It is the uneducated people that seem to think they are correct... you obviously know nothing about cropping and posting, so I don't think you should judge others.

Yes, I feel this is a very touchy subject, I shouldn't have said anything, I get very heated about this.. it scares me that people with no interest in showing or breeding or cropped dogs (like my doberman and dane) are going to take away this freedom of mine. It is a very scary thought to me...

You CAN show uncropped and undocked dogs. That is NOTHING new. Look up uncropped great danes. Many of them finish easily and go on to have a very succesfull show career. Many dobermans also finsih when they are uncropped, but you don't often see them undocked.

I really do not think people who are not in this buisness should worry about it. It dosn't affect you, so why should you care? Only the people showing and breeding and loving the breed should have any kind of say in what we can and cannot do with OUR dogs.

I am not trying to sound snotty, just stating how I feel. I have very strong feelings about this. Kinda how some people feel about abortion or something... you are either one way or the other! sorry if I am coming off strong on this, I just don't think it is fari that those not involved directly with MY DOGS should have any kind of say...

Because we love animals, too, and don't like to see them subjected to unnecessary surgical procedures. Saying that nobody can have a valid opinion unless THEY own a dog of THAT breed is like saying that you can't be against child abuse unless you have children, or you can't be against drunk driving unless you've ever driven drunk....it doesn't make sense.

For what it's worth, I have a Rott with a docked tail (rescue---I would never support a breeder that docks). I wish he wasn't docked, but that's not a CHOICE dog buyers are commonly given in this country. So now I'm magically qualified to have an opinion on docking? But I wouldn't be if I didn't have the Rott? OK........

Hi,

I really don't think that it needs a lot of "education" to know what pain is and how it is caused. Removing body parts will always cause pain and should in my oppinion only be done for a good medical reason, not for breed standards.



That really depends on where you are- here in German cropping is illegal- so you don't see cropped or docked dobermans anymore. In my oppinion these dogs look so much more friendlier now

Same goes with great danes, which are not cropped or docked here either.

There's absolutely nothing wrong in the way an un-cropped and un- docked dog looks like .

... and I really strongly feel that laws should be made to protect animals from unnesessary surgery or from breed standards that give an animal a disadvantage in life.

Christine

Ummm, actually you would be wrong. I have had dogs all my life. And why on earth does me thinking your dog looks uncomfortable make me uneducated? How bout ask why I think she looked uncomfortable? Then you could have a chance to rebut and explain that she was not in pain instead of jumping to assumptions.

You asked a question, I answered. If you don't want the answer, then don't ask.

There's issues we are all touchy about, and well for me..... putting an animal through extensive pain for COSMETIC purposes is absolutely barbaric.... especially when done without freezing.

Uneducated? Far from it. I'm baffled as to how you can make that assumption on one or two comments?

You are correct in saying I don't know all the in's and out's of docking or cropping..... especially posting, my experience has not been with posting, as boxers don't get posted.


Good for you for believing in something. There is absolutely no problems with that, the problem lays with how you deal with it especially on an open forum with many different opinions.

You somehow feel I'm disqualified, and not entitled to my opinion just because I look at your pics and said Yup, to me the one dog looks uncomfortable. I'm sorry to say that is not the case, with free speech and all.

The answer is no, I don't own a cropped/docked dog. But that in itself does NOT cancel out my opinion, or anyone else who has an opinion and doesn't breed a docked/cropped breed. Personally, I would never chose to breed a breed of dog that is "traditionally" docked or cropped for cosmetic purposes becase I think the practice rates right up there with declawing cats, and animal abuse when done with NO anesthetic.

When my dog does pass, I will be getting a Rotti from a breeder friend of mine.... He breeds both Boxers and Rotti's, and is very happy with the way the laws are moving when it comes to docking and cropping And guess what, my Rotti will not be docked as there is no way I will let my animal go through that pain for a COSMETIC procedure.

That helps me be entitled to my opinion, and my own believes on this barbaric act.

And we have stated how we feel and we also have strong feelings about this. Yes some of us also have strong feelings about abortion, yay or nay and feel free to share those opinions as well.

Although we are not directly involved with YOUR DOGS we are not talking specifically about YOUR DOGS. The only mention of YOUR dogs was when you asked if they looked happy and you got a reply of "no", so that was a direct response to a direct question. We have opined that we believe ear and tail docking are barbaric on ALL dogs, not just yours.

So the ears SHOULD be healed, but lots of times by bad owners they get bandaged and posted before they heal. My best friend is a doberman lover and like you wants to keep the crop for the 'look' which is fine. Her dogs ears were all done proffessionally and she is super careful, HOWEVER, her puppies still yowl in pain and discomfort when the bandages are being changed, so regardless, there is an element of discomfort and pain involved in the postings.... Hair being ripped off sensitive areas and such. And like anything, often we have to protect people from themselves, yes YOU might get it done proffesionally and properly, but there are many horrific homedown crops from those trying to save a penny......... if it was banned there would be less need (Yes I think it would still be done) for people to do it barbarically.

Really??? If it doesn't affect you why should you care????? This is like the declawing cat argument. Does it DIRECTLY affect me when people declaw their cats, no. Would I support a bill to ban it and fight people who want to do it tooth and nail to get rid of declawing. Yes.

If there was a backyard breeder abusing dogs, living next door to me does it DIRECTLY affect me? No. Would I take action and call the SPCA, or care period and state an opinion. Absolutely.

This is a site of animal lovers and we are going to have opinions on matters that involve animals and in things that happen to them. Period.

Personally I don't like cropping and am on the fence about docking. I've seen bandages of cropped ears being changed and I think it's silly to put the dog through that for 'the look', although I too enjoy the look of a well cropped dog. As for the tails, well great danes have tails and they manage just fine, so I don't see the need really to dock either. And with any un-necessary 'surgery' things CAN go wrong, won't necessarily, but can, so why put the animal through it and risk damaging and scarring the animal for life, low-risk surgery or not.

A DOG SHOULD NEVER CRY IN PAIN WHEN GETTING POSTED! That is rediculous! The owner is doing something wrong then. My dogs fall alseep with their head in my lap. Once the stitches are out, 7 days after the crop, it is done! Over! no more pain! Posting is to teach the cartalige to stand. that's it. not painful, not bothersome.

And yes, Boxers are posted after they are cropped. ALL dogs except pit bulls and some mastifs are posted after they are cropped. The crop heals in 7 days, the stitches come out, they get posted. no big deal. People who do otherwise, or post before the ear is healed are doing it wrong. Those who do it correctly, should not be punished because of the UNEDUCATED people who do it wrong or know nothing about it.

And yes, this is an opne public forum. That means you can keep stating your opinon till you are blue in the face, and I can keep stating mine and no one will ever change their mind. It just isn't right of those of you saying things like their ears are BANDAGED or hurting because that is not true.

here, educate yourself before spreading lies: http://dobermanpuppyforsale.com/ears.htm

Lies can be spread for both sides of an issue. Reading an article from a breeder of puppies that are docked is not necessarily unbiased.

From what I can see in these posts, people have posted that they believe docking is unnecessary surgery just as declawing is unnecessary surgery. None of these posters were "spreading lies" as you put it. You are naturally pro docking since you have docked dogs but that doesn't mean we all have to agree that it is an OK thing to do. Most of us feel exactly the same towards docking as we do about declawing. There will be cat folks, who like you, feel declawing does not hurt an animal and is quite OK to do (which usually is done more to save their furniture than for medical reasons). You are right in that we probably will not change our minds even after reading your link to puppy for sale just as you probably won't ever change yours.

One can be educated about dog fights and "rooster" fights but that doesn't mean that after learning and being educated about them that we would change our minds and think they are an OK thing. Being educated can sometimes actually make people realize just how bad something they are doing really is and confirm that reality to those in opposition.

As for education from your link all it shows is the posting which is pretty benign compared to the docking.

ETA: The anti posters in this thread have shown you far more respect than you have shown them IMO.

Yep, stating your opinion is one thing.... accusing people is totally different, disrespecting people only because they disagree with you and insulting the intelligence of others is NOT respectable in an opinion based discussion.

So, I'm going to politely remove myself from this conversation because I think cropping and docking for COSMETIC purposes is an absolutely barbaric proceduce and definately animal abuse and others feel its ok. Most people can respectfully disagree which is what I am doing. Others cannot RESPECTFULLY disagree and what's the point of even discussing if there's no respect?

Did some investigating on my own in order to educate myself and was happy to see that more countries than I knew of have adapted the same mindset regarding docking and cropping:

http://cfhs.ca/athome/ear_cropping_and_tail_docking/
Canadian Federation of Humane Societies

from the article above

The above statement truly sinks in for me. I can tell alot about my dog's mood, level of pain, etc. from her tail and also her ears. I can't imagine dealing with her tumor if she had a docked tail....Her tail tells sooooo much about her.



http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/131333.php

again, it is all still opinon. But saying that my dog looks uncomfortable, and that her ears are all "bandaged" up is a lie. She is perfectly fine (better than fine, she is one of the nicest great danes many people have ever seen) , She dosn't even remember the 6 days of pain and hasn't been hurting since the stitches where out (which I took out while she slept on my couch.... must have been very tramatic for her...)

But do some of you see where I am coming from? If you are not in the sport.... why take this CHOICE away from those of us that love it.

An uncropped doberman is no doberman in my eyes. An uncropped great dane is ok. But not dobermans. they MUST be cropped in order to look the part. Would a persian look like it is supposed to bald?? no. Does a doberman look like a doberman with uncropped ears?? no. end of story.

I will keep my opinons to myself from now on. I guess they are not allowed on a public forum... interesting...

and what you posted above works out for your side of the story. I posted that link to show you what an ear looks like that it posted. not bandaged.... no raw edges, no discomfort.

Below is some helpful information I found to support my side: (from http://www.gentledoberman.com/ear-cropping-1.php )

"Arguments for maintaining the practice of ear cropping begin by refuting the assertion that the procedure is cruel. No human can speak for a dog. However, Doberman owners who have handled a Doberman puppy through the cropping and subsequent ear training observe no change in behavior after the procedure which would indicate severe pain. The freshly cropped eared puppy maintains its endless appetite. It continues in rough play with litter mates and other resident animals, and shows no lack of energy.

Cropping advocates will continue. Cropping is essentially returning normal function to the ear. The long floppy ear is in fact ‘unnatural,' bred into the ancestors of the Doberman by man. The cropped ear is the tradition of the Doberman breed and of many other breeds; neglecting it leaves the dog only resembling an ideal member of its breed.

Advantages of a cropped ear should also be considered in the argument. Original reasons for the Doberman ear crop were to protect it. Removing the long fragile part of the ear removes liability from a protection dog. Likewise, docking the tail and breeding for a short smooth coat also removes parts of the dog that could be grasped or easily injured by an attacker. Even outside of combat these long delicate ears can be easily damaged during the Dobermans rigorous play."

Because the dogs can't speak for themselves.


In my eyes an uncropped doberman looks nicer and friendlier And yes- an un-cropped doberman looks just like... a doberman

A persian without fur would look a lot like a sphynx cat (though with different facial features), personally I don't agree with breeding sphynx cats either- but that's another topic all together.


As far as I can see it you have been allowed your opinion- we just don't share it

None of your posts has in any way been edited by others (Admin or Moderators) - and nor have ours .


regards,

Christine

I think it's sad that we humans are so visual. If WE are not pretty, we change it. We change our hair color, we change our face with plastic surgery, we lop of parts of our noses and it goes on and on. So, if we are pretty, so should our animals be. I feel sorry for not so pretty cats and dogs in shelters. Most are the last to be adopted, if ever, all thanks to our 'pretty' society.

I can understand any cropping/docking/cutting off anything if it's done for HEALTH BENEFITS. If any organization doesn't think dogs are pretty enough to qualify because they haven't been physically altered just makes me want nothing to do with that organization. As far as a standard, I can't understand how it's standard' if it has to be altered to accomplish it. If people stop breeding for that reason, what does this say about us as a society? We have the right to physically alter animals for no purpose other than to make them appealing for show or simply for ourselves.

All I've read from the "FOR" cropping/docking are the words: "breeder, show, stitches, bandages, me, healing and 6 days of pain". I also have a dog and the only time I'd be lopping or cutting something off her would be for health reasons such as a tumor, and if it was beyond helping, not even then.

IMO, cropping/docking, declawing or cutting any animal parts for 'ANY' reason other than for the safety and health of that animal is cruel and inhumane. Just like any animal cruelty laws, I would think that the same laws should apply.

*This post is soley my own viewpoint. Everyone has a right to their own views and agree or disagree. I am not singling anyone out, just sharing my opinions.

Don't confuse disagreement with an opinion as a personal attack. You stated your opinion and we other posters stated ours. Your opinion is as valid to you as ours is to us.

Fortunately some places in the world are beginning to realize we don't need to perform operations on animals to change their look for the sake of showing, sport or whatever you want to call it just as many countries have finally banned declawing for cats which most of us will agree is unnecessary and potentially harmful.

Some years ago in China, women had to have their feet bound when young in order for them to be attractive to men when they grew up. That was also considered "normal". Fortunately, that is no longer practiced or at least not with educated and more knowledgeable Chinese so education can be a good thing.

this is just plain scary to me....That you would vote for a bill or whatnot that would take away our choices....our freedoms

What do you all think about BSL? (for those of you who don't know what that is, it stands for breed specific legislation)

I know it isn't the same thing and I am not trying to say it is, just wondering where you stand with BSL. Is it ok for the government to tell us what dogs we can and cannot own?

You ASKED for opinions on your dog's pics as to whether they looked uncomfortable, unloved, etc. But when you get an answer that is not acceptable to you, it is a lie? How is my own opinion a lie exactly? Especially when you say she doesn't remember the 6 days of pain.

Would wrapped up be a better word than bandage? Yet again, a poster mentioned she doesn't like seeing the ears all bandaged up.... in the pic, her ears are bandaged/wrapped/however you want to say it. So again, that is NOT a lie in any way whatsoever..... You posted and asked a question with the pics, yes people will answer the question. That does not make their answer a lie.

Personally, I can see you feel strongly that a doberman is not a doberman without cosmetic surgery. That is your opinion, and I respectfully disagree with it. A dobermans ears, do not make it a doberman. Even without cropped ears, it is still the breed Doberman. That is my opinion.

Opinions are great, when done with tact and respect. Insulting, insinuating and the like are not respectful.

Do you by chance have a link from an animal welfare organization,veterinary site or the like, that supports cropping/docking ? I would be very interested in reading a differing opinion from a non-breed specific website that way the opinion are not bias.