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Germany Intolerent of Scientology? - Page 3

post #61 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
I don't think most people are busting on the beliefs, it's the practices that bother me. I believe in aliens and people can worship or believe whatever and whoever they want, but it's the practices of the "religion" that are putting up red flags. Everyone has the freedom to believe whatever they want, but it seems like this "religion" uses mind control (in one form or another) and crossed the boundary of infringing on human rights. So, in my mind, it's a cult, not a religion.
That's exactly what everyone said about the Moonies too. Our cousin doesn't seem to have his mind affected. He's actually one of the nicest, kindest, honest people I've ever met.
post #62 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
That's exactly what everyone said about the Moonies too. Our cousin doesn't seem to have his mind affected. He's actually one of the nicest, kindest, honest people I've ever met.
I will admit I know NOTHING about Moonies and I'm not saying anything against them. Well, I do know they were in their hayday in the 60's and 70's right? Before people could actually learn something about the religion on the internet. Yeah, I'm sure people were worried whether that worry was warrented or not because they couldn't get information.

With this "religion", we can because the internet is here.

Did YOU read some of the links? I'm glad your cousin is fine, and I'm sure mpst people who leave Scientology are fine afterwards. But, (and I'm only talking about Scientology here) they seem to keep people from helping themselves.

Is it right for someone to stop taking drugs that help epilepsy, manic/depressive disorder, etc and put them on vitamins and excercise? Is it right to give all info about bank accounts? Yes, it's all the person's choice, but once they are taken off the drugs are they really in their right minds to agree to giving all their banking info??
post #63 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
I don't think most people are busting on the beliefs, it's the practices that bother me. I believe in aliens and people can worship or believe whatever and whoever they want, but it's the practices of the "religion" that are putting up red flags. Everyone has the freedom to believe whatever they want, but it seems like this "religion" uses mind control (in one form or another) and crossed the boundary of infringing on human rights. So, in my mind, it's a cult, not a religion.
There is more than one mainstream religion that uses mind control in one form or another. Such as, taking a newborn child to religious services before they are even old enough to comprehend, then subject them to "stray and be condemned" for their entire formative years, seems very much like a form of mind control to me.
post #64 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
Is it right for someone to stop taking drugs that help epilepsy, manic/depressive disorder, etc and put them on vitamins and excercise? Is it right to give all info about bank accounts? Yes, it's all the person's choice, but once they are taken off the drugs are they really in their right minds to agree to giving all their banking info??
Honestly, I am one of those strange people that believe doctors are over-prescribing drugs. I also believe there are too many doctors diagnosing children as having ADD and prescribing Ritalin and other drugs. My husband and I do believe that eating healthy and exercising to some degree can go a long way to helping mental health as well as physical health. Often you'll see depressed people are the ones that sit around by themselves and have little to no social life. That isn't healthy IMO. I do believe in drugs for physical ailments such as diabetes, migraine headaches, etc. but IMO too many doctors are "copping out" by using generic diagnoses and putting people on way too many drugs. I think back to my mom and the number of pills she took per day and it is outrageous. I can't help but think that all those drugs had to be counteracting each other in some way. I hesitate to even take an aspirin for a headache. Exercise will actually help a headache go away so maybe the scientologists aren't all that far off in weaning people off the many drugs our physicians and drug companies out there are foisting off on us. Just take a look at the placebo studies. Some people will actually feel better if they just "believe" they are getting drugs to help them when in actuality they are taking sugar pills.

Take a look at some of the patients in institutions - how many of them are so drugged up they resemble zombies. The institutes say it is in their best interest so they won't harm themselves. I think it's more for the workers so they don't have to actually deal with the patients' issues. They don't have the time nor the inclination to really help the patients. Just drug them up so they can't cause any disturbance.
post #65 of 83
Germany doesn't have to like Tom Cruise, or his portrayal of their hero. Germany also doesn't have to let foreigners make a film about their history on their soil if they don't want to. The movie can be made somewhere else.

Why would Germans feel uncomfortable with a narcissistic charismatic cult-like leader and his followers? I'd guess they are wary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
There is more than one mainstream religion that uses mind control in one form or another. Such as, taking a newborn child to religious services before they are even old enough to comprehend, then subject them to "stray and be condemned" for their entire formative years, seems very much like a form of mind control to me.
I agree! It's pretty creepy to me.
post #66 of 83
I can't help myself....lol.

Anyone object if I build a temple to Mars in the front yard?
post #67 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essayons89 View Post
I can't help myself....lol.

Anyone object if I build a temple to Mars in the front yard?
The God Mars, or the planet Mars?
post #68 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
The God Mars, or the planet Mars?
Ahem...the Roman God of War, not the planet that bears his name.
post #69 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essayons89 View Post
Ahem...the Roman God of War, not the planet that bears his name.
Oh, well then absolutely I'm a little partial to the Goddess Nike myself, but I don't have a temple; I just wear her shoes.
post #70 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Actually, I've not noticed anyone here defending Scientology. Instead it would appear that the defense is of people's individual right to be one. Just my take on what I've read so far

Thank you Skippy, that is how I feel.
post #71 of 83
Quote:
First off, there is good and bad in everything, including churches, they are not exempt. I have no idea what your questions were that got you terminated from the youth group either. You did not elaborate much.
Sorry about that. I didn't elaborate because I forget who was in the story. It was about God telling some guy to kill his own child. Then at the last minute god was like "stop" you have proven your loyalty to me. It went something like that.

So then I questioned it. I asked but how was the son supposed to feel? I mean, if god talked to him and not the son then what was the son supposed to think? Like "yeah dad..Great you were willing to kill me for voices in your head." I really got into it with the guy. I mean I had a lot of question he could not answer. I wanted answers. I don't see anything wrong with that. If you are going to follow something, you should have answers. Especially if you are trying to sell it.

It was a really long time ago I was probably 12 at the time which was 20 years ago. As I am typing this though I feel like a simular stories have made the papers. Voices in head. Children dying. Interesting.
post #72 of 83
I didn't present anything as fact that I was not sure of. I'm not sure if I was just venting, or if I wanted to know if anyone else had heard similar rumors, etc. It probably makes a big difference if they are right down the street from you, or you have never knowingly interacted with a Scientologist.

I agree Tom Cruise gets a little more attention right now, because he is very busy and made a movie about World War II Germany. He also made a point of giving an interview to Matt Lauer detailing Scientology's rejection of psychiatric drugs. He presented his beliefs as coming from Scientology. John Travolta keeps it more upbeat.

I was doing a little research online and encountered reviews of the John Travolta produced movie based on L. Ron Humbbard's novel. It was a total loss with both the critics and audiences.

The Church of Scientology as sued by a man who took (and paid for) all the tests all the way to find out the find "secrets" at the top levels. He was so disappointed he sued. He settled, but some of the secrets were included in the court documents and are now available online.

As I understand it, Xenu (or Xemu in some accounts), the leader of the Galactic Foundation solved an overpopulation problem by freezing excess population in alcohol and glycol and transporting them to Planet Earth. There they were chained to a volcano and exploded by hydrogen bombs. Their souls -- called "body thetans" -- are the root of most human misery.

These spirits attach themselves by "clusters" to individuals in the contemporary world, causing spiritual harm and negatively influencing the lives of their hosts.

http://www.lermanet.com/cos/wpost.html

http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyn...cientology.htm

http://www.lermanet.com/reference/BatEarthfaq.htm
post #73 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
There is more than one mainstream religion that uses mind control in one form or another. Such as, taking a newborn child to religious services before they are even old enough to comprehend, then subject them to "stray and be condemned" for their entire formative years, seems very much like a form of mind control to me.
I think that depends on your definition of "mind control". That to me would be "upbringing" and introducing them to the idea of a higher power. I'm not saying that makes the child better than a child that was raised by people that don't believe in any religion. I grew up in a Roman Catholic family and yes, the Church is known for it's "mind control". And I know many people (including myself) that rebeled against some of the teachings once we were older. To me, that isn't mind control, that is raising someone in a belief and allowing them to chose when they are older.

Here, we are talking about adults that go into this because they are searching for something and this "religion" is telling them what they need to do (ie, spend money for courses where they stare into someones eyes for a full hour). Or, take tests which are basically lie detector tests (which they also have to pay for). And, what does Scientology do for the rest of the world? Every other "honest" religion I know at least has some kind of charity or helps underprivleged people. I have yet to see what this "religion" does to help others.
post #74 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
Honestly, I am one of those strange people that believe doctors are over-prescribing drugs. I also believe there are too many doctors diagnosing children as having ADD and prescribing Ritalin and other drugs.
Actually, I agree with this completely. Almost everyone I know either has a child or is related to a child diagnosed with ADD. With most cases, I think it's just a result of bad parenting when they were younger and they can't handle them now. One woman I know does have a child with ADD and it is legitimate, and I my heart goes out to her and her little boy. But, I do agree there are too many kids on drugs that shouldn't be.

Also, drugs with older people should be monitored. My Grandma was on over 20 pills a day, and finally my mom sat down with her doctor and after cutting some out she improved for years. Some of the pills were to help with the side affects of other pills, and the doctors didn't talk to each other to find out exactly what she was taking. So, we're on the same page there....

BUT when it comes to someone who is bipolar and is told to stop taking his medication and take vitamins and excersise instead, and he ends up killing his family because he is having a bad day? How is this a good thing? That is like telling someone with cancer to stop chemo and eat m&ms and everything will be fine. Sometimes medicine is over prescribed, but other times it IS necessary. It is up to the individual what they want to do, but once off drugs for bipolar disorder, can they really decide for themselves?
post #75 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
I think that depends on your definition of "mind control". That to me would be "upbringing" and introducing them to the idea of a higher power. I'm not saying that makes the child better than a child that was raised by people that don't believe in any religion. I grew up in a Roman Catholic family and yes, the Church is known for it's "mind control". And I know many people (including myself) that rebeled against some of the teachings once we were older. To me, that isn't mind control, that is raising someone in a belief and allowing them to chose when they are older.

Here, we are talking about adults that go into this because they are searching for something and this "religion" is telling them what they need to do (ie, spend money for courses where they stare into someones eyes for a full hour). Or, take tests which are basically lie detector tests (which they also have to pay for). And, what does Scientology do for the rest of the world? Every other "honest" religion I know at least has some kind of charity or helps underprivleged people. I have yet to see what this "religion" does to help others.
The statement I was replying to referred to "mind control in one form or another". I see "upbringing" or perhaps, "post-natal indoctrination", as one of the forms of mind control. Such as the people that on Christmas morning have that one moment, that second of doubt where they wonder if Santa Claus might have come, even though they know otherwise. That fleeting thought comes from the subconscious, where it was planted by well meaning parents during childhood. With religion, it is often more intense, and even though when they grow up they are "allowed to choose", they are very often afraid to choose anything else because of those subconscious convictions. In many cases the result is affected by that thought, and therefore, successful control.

I know people that actually think that belief in their religion is the natural state of mankind because as they were indoctrinated shortly after birth, they cannot remember not believing
post #76 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
The statement I was replying to referred to "mind control in one form or another". I see "upbringing" or perhaps, "post-natal indoctrination", as one of the forms of mind control. Such as the people that on Christmas morning have that one moment, that second of doubt where they wonder if Santa Claus might have come, even though they know otherwise. That fleeting thought comes from the subconscious, where it was planted by well meaning parents during childhood. With religion, it is often more intense, and even though when they grow up they are "allowed to choose", they are very often afraid to choose anything else because of those subconscious convictions. In many cases the result is affected by that thought, and therefore, successful control.

I know people that actually think that belief in their religion is the natural state of mankind because as they were indoctrinated shortly after birth, they cannot remember not believing
But, using that arguement, anything we are taught as children is a form of mind control. Potty training, for example. It's convienent and easier for the parents to potty train, but back in the day people went out to the outhouse, or even further back they squatted in the woods. We are "taught" to use the potty. We are "taught" to eat with a fork and knife (although fingers and teeth were used back in the day). And it is much more convient...you should see me with a pork chop!

Basically what the child decides one he or she has grown up depends on first, the person, and second, the family. I don't really think the religion has anything to do with it. I don't agree with families that try to "guilt" their children into staying in the religion, but I don't condemn them for believing what they belive and trying to pass their beliefs on to their children.
post #77 of 83
Thread Starter 
Is teaching a child right from wrong mind control?
post #78 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Is teaching a child right from wrong mind control?
It doesn't have to be couched in religious terms - there is such a thing as ethics.
post #79 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Is teaching a child right from wrong mind control?
Right and wrong is a necessary life lesson, a plain old fact of life. One that determines if the person lives their life happily and productive, or in prison, or worse.

But to address the question, depending on how it is taught, it could be, yes.
post #80 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
But, using that arguement, anything we are taught as children is a form of mind control. Potty training, for example. It's convienent and easier for the parents to potty train, but back in the day people went out to the outhouse, or even further back they squatted in the woods. We are "taught" to use the potty. We are "taught" to eat with a fork and knife (although fingers and teeth were used back in the day). And it is much more convient...you should see me with a pork chop!

Basically what the child decides one he or she has grown up depends on first, the person, and second, the family. I don't really think the religion has anything to do with it. I don't agree with families that try to "guilt" their children into staying in the religion, but I don't condemn them for believing what they belive and trying to pass their beliefs on to their children.

Not at all. Unless there are parents that drill it into their children that they will be hurled into a firey pit for ever and ever if they wet their diapers, or eat their peas with a knife. To instill a fear of inescapable retribution for the tiniest infraction isn't quite the same thing as potty training
post #81 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Not at all. Unless there are parents that drill it into their children that they will be hurled into a firey pit for ever and ever if they wet their diapers, or eat their peas with a knife. To instill a fear of inescapable retribution for the tiniest infraction isn't quite the same thing as potty training
What religion are you referring to? I know a lot of main stream religions do teach heaven and hell, but in most you have to be VERY bad to actually go to hell (as in premeditated murder bad), and not the "tiniest infraction" (as in lying to a neighbor. Also, most main stream religions also belief God is a forgiving being. At least, that's what I believe and I was one of the "mind controlled" ones. As I said, it's up to the individual to believe and up to the family to allow the individual to decide. All religions have doctrines and beliefs, that is the nature of the beast.

Besides, this was about adults going in and becoming victums of mind control, not how children are raised.

Oh, completely unrelated, but we actually have pictures of my grandmother lining up peas on her knife at Thanksgiving dinner and letting them roll into her mouth. This has nothing to do with the discussion, it's just a funny memory that your post brought to mind. Thank you!
post #82 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
What religion are you referring to? I know a lot of main stream religions do teach heaven and hell, but in most you have to be VERY bad to actually go to hell (as in premeditated murder bad), and not the "tiniest infraction" (as in lying to a neighbor. Also, most main stream religions also belief God is a forgiving being. At least, that's what I believe and I was one of the "mind controlled" ones. As I said, it's up to the individual to believe and up to the family to allow the individual to decide. All religions have doctrines and beliefs, that is the nature of the beast.
That is why some of them are so hard to take seriously. Having a religion broken down into dozen of denominations that can't agree on what the religion is supposed to be, makes one wonder if any of them know what they are supposed to represent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
Besides, this was about adults going in and becoming victums of mind control, not how children are raised.
If people seeking some kind of inner peace or answers to their questions think that is their answer, then I feel that would be entirely up to those people. I can't help but to feel that indoctrinating children is somewhat worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
Oh, completely unrelated, but we actually have pictures of my grandmother lining up peas on her knife at Thanksgiving dinner and letting them roll into her mouth. This has nothing to do with the discussion, it's just a funny memory that your post brought to mind. Thank you!
That would be quite a trick to see I was actually thinking of an old 3 Stooges skit when I wrote it
post #83 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
It doesn't have to be couched in religious terms - there is such a thing as ethics.
I believe that the Ten Commandments, given by God to Moses, are good rules to live by.
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